On the Obama proposed health plan

jikelly · #26 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerboss

Are you kidding?

It's only "fine" if you enjoy rationing, shortages, and waiting lists.

Did you ever watch that front line piece about healthcare around the world?

jikelly · #27 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFireGT

There are public transportation systems. And of course, you don't have to have a $600/month car payment. You have to live to be able to drive the car and get to work. Which is more important? Driving or living?

Good points, but...

Public transportation is severely limited in large portions of the country. And it's communism anyway. (It's like promoting efficiency. It's just down right unamerican.)

And...

If you aren't sick now, why bother paying out the butt for health coverage?

**Lisa GT** · #28 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jikelly

If you aren't sick now, why bother paying out the butt for health coverage?

Well, I guess Monday when I have to have an MRI I'll be glad we bothered the past years when we weren't sick. Then when I see the Orthopedic surgeon, a good one of my choice with a good reputation, who worked me into his schedule sooner than the first available appointment when I described my symptoms, I'll be glad we bothered.

Bailouts, entitlement programs, an unfair tax code that punishes doing the right thing and becoming successful, etc., have ruined this country. Many people see no reason to plan, save, and make wise choices. No consequences = No responsibility.

I don't support bailouts for AIG, automakers, Fannie/Freddie or for those who took mortgages they couldn't afford because they wanted more house than they could afford, or even wanted a house when they couldn't afford to own one. If you sign legal papers that you haven't read and/or don't understand, it's your own damn fault. Every time I ask somebody to sign a legal document, or I notarize one for somebody else, I ask the person signing (under oath) if they have read the entire document and understand it, and if they have any questions before they sign. If they say "yes" and sign something they didn't read or don't understand just so they can get what they want, it's on them. But that's another topic.

bigconig · #29 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

"The Obama proposal includes a new requirement that employers either provide coverage to their employees or pay the government a set proportion of their payroll to provide it."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/us...63d&ei=5087%0A

One of the partners here just informed me that if this were to pass and be implemented, that it would shut down the firm, they wouldn't be able to do it.

A while back they looked at getting a group health insurance plan, but even a group plan was going to be more than most of the people here would be willing or able to participate in so it didn't work out. One attorney here even had his wife go back to work after having a baby just so they could get on her health insurance benefits.

Is anybody else getting any kind of indications of what might happen from their employers?

you work for a law firm and there isn't enough money to provide health insurance for employees?

strtrcr50 · #30 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jikelly

Good points, but...

Public transportation is severely limited in large portions of the country. And it's communism anyway. (It's like promoting efficiency. It's just down right unamerican.)

And...

If you aren't sick now, why bother paying out the butt for health coverage?

As I posted in another thread, I pay under $50 a week for health care coverage. Is that excessive to you?

**COramprat** · #31 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 05:36 PM

Here is what I can't understand about companies and health insurance. My dad is retired and made payments to his medical insurance through his former local union. While he was working the benefit was free but after you retire you have to make supplemental payment to stay in the plan. It was going to cost over 700 a month so he struck out on his own and got a plan through Blue Cross/Blue Shield for 350 a month. If an individual can go out and get a plan for a reasonable payment why can't a company do so with the buying power or multiple employees?

My company says they pay 80% of my med insurance and I pay $125 a month. They are telling me that they have to pay nearly a $1000 a month for my insurance? We have over 40,000 employees. Something doesn't jive here.

**DarkFireGT** · #32 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jikelly

Good points, but...

Public transportation is severely limited in large portions of the country. And it's communism anyway. (It's like promoting efficiency. It's just down right unamerican.)

And...

If you aren't sick now, why bother paying out the butt for health coverage?

I'll agree about public trans, but again, no one forces anyone to have a $600/month car payment. You can get a perfectly capable, decent car for $200/mo.

I never said anything about paying out the butt for health insurance. As it stands now, if your employer doesn't organize health insurance, and doesn't have a good policy, health insurance is too damned expensive. It will have to be made affordable for Obama's plan to go through, let alone work. Or for McCain's plan for that matter. Any organized health plan will have to require that. Insurance companies charge way too much, as do hospitals. And average 5 mile ambulance ride costs $500, for instance. My daughter's 3 week stay in the PICU, ICU, and heart surgery costed over $400k.

**Lisa GT** · #33 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigconig

you work for a law firm and there isn't enough money to provide health insurance for employees?

Yes and yes. Welcome to small business. Not all lawyers are rich. Some really practice law.

**Lisa GT** · #34 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COramprat

Here is what I can't understand about companies and health insurance. My dad is retired and made payments to his medical insurance through his former local union. While he was working the benefit was free but after you retire you have to make supplemental payment to stay in the plan. It was going to cost over 700 a month so he struck out on his own and got a plan through Blue Cross/Blue Shield for 350 a month. If an individual can go out and get a plan for a reasonable payment why can't a company do so with the buying power or multiple employees?

My company says they pay 80% of my med insurance and I pay $125 a month. They are telling me that they have to pay nearly a $1000 a month for my insurance? We have over 40,000 employees. Something doesn't jive here.

Our contribution to our health insurance each month is about $320.00, it's my understanding that Durden's employer's share is about $1000.00 per month. Imagine a small business of approx. 10 employees having to pick up the tab for that i.e. an additional $10K in payroll expenses each month. That's pretty steep. It will shut the doors of a lot of small businesses.

jikelly · #35 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strtrcr50

As I posted in another thread, I pay under $50 a week for health care coverage. Is that excessive to you?

No that's a great price, but we both know your low priced plan is not common.

jikelly · #36 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFireGT

I'll agree about public trans, but again, no one forces anyone to have a $600/month car payment. You can get a perfectly capable, decent car for $200/mo.

I never said anything about paying out the butt for health insurance. As it stands now, if your employer doesn't organize health insurance, and doesn't have a good policy, health insurance is too damned expensive. It will have to be made affordable for Obama's plan to go through, let alone work. Or for McCain's plan for that matter. Any organized health plan will have to require that. Insurance companies charge way too much, as do hospitals. And average 5 mile ambulance ride costs $500, for instance. My daughter's 3 week stay in the PICU, ICU, and heart surgery costed over $400k.

True, a lot of people have more car than they really need. Lisa is also right that a lot of people are too short sighted to save (um but you're losing worth due to inflation that's just my opinion though), pay for health care (no mater how much the cost), and even to read the documents they sign.

But, because, even with the power of numbers, business are struggling or unable to find affordable health care insurance we have a serious problem. Something must be done.

Otherwise with the increasing costs of medical care, procedures, and insurance we are just going to hear more tragic stories about people being bankrupted by health problems.

**DarkFireGT** · #37 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 09:26 PM

I think what Wal-Mart has done for lowering prescription drugs has paved the way for lowered health care premiums. As soon as Wal-Mart announced it, pretty much every other pharmacy took note and did the same. We definitely won't see anything monumental in health care until it becomes affordable.

And, as I've already stated (and you just restated), people aren't going to pay for it themselves. People are much more likely to do it through payroll deduction. I, for one, probably wouldn't bother with health insurance, 401K, or United Way if it wasn't for payroll deductions. It took me about 5 minutes apiece to set up everything and they take care of the rest. I end up donating around $1k a year to UW. There's no way I'd do that if it wasn't through payroll deduction. Not that the UW doesn't deserve it, I'm just a typical lazy American. Scratch that. Typical lazy 21st century human being.

**Strype** · #38 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFireGT

I hope I'm right, too. But, it's just like car insurance. If you own a car, you have to have insurance, thus, the insurance companies have to make it affordable. Heck, I pay $30/mo for my winter beater for liability, and I have a DUI on record. I think we'll see health care costs go way down with either contender.

The problem that I have with McCain's, the way I understand it, is that it's a tax break. First of all, we all know that a break doesn't give you $5000. It takes $5000 off your taxable income. It hopefully puts you in a lower bracket so your tax liability is less and you get more back. But it may make a difference in your liability, it may not. This means that you have to have the money up front for the premium. There's 3 categories that people will fall into with this:
1) The least amount of people: Can afford it and will purchase their insurance
2) Tied with 3: Can afford it but won't buy it, instead blowing the money on things they don't really need because that's how Americans are.
3) Tied with 2: Can't afford it.

That's just my take on it. But if you leave it to people to purchase it on their own, even if you give them a break at the end of the year, the majority won't, for one reason or another. Health insurance is more important than car insurance, IMO. And having car insurance is the law. But, it's not free. And I don't think health insurance should be free, if you're employed. However, it should be very affordable, readily available, and coordinated through your employer. People are just too lazy to set it up, and honestly, too many options are a bad thing. When I'm selling to someone, I give them 2 or 3 options. I don't give them every available option, because they won't be able to make up their mind. I have 2 insurance choices at work. Both are extremely affordable and comparing the plans side to side, it was easy for me to decide. That's how it should be for everyone. McCain's plan does not address any of those concerns.

*Edit* And I just found out McCain's plan is a $2500 tax credit, with $5k for families. He fails to mention that. In fact, and I could be wrong, but I could almost swear I remember him saying for every man, woman, and child.

*sighs*

first of all I'm not pcking on you in particular man, I usually agree with you and I love you and I will name my 2nd child DarkFire

First Bolded Statement:

Quote:

But, it's just like car insurance. If you own a car, you have to have insurance, thus, the insurance companies have to make it affordable. Heck, I pay $30/mo

Car insurance is NOT EVER under government control. There is no gov't car insurance plan which is why it is cheap. The free market insures that it is cheap because to stay in business (without becoming an illegal monopoly) a company has to bid against other companies for your business and they are forced to be cheaper. Supply and demand.

Second Bolded Statement:

Quote:

But if you leave it to people to purchase it on their own, even if you give them a break at the end of the year, the majority won't

But if you leave it to people to purchase food they will. If you leave it to people to purchase a residence they will. A car, a cheeseburger, a lottery ticket, a beer, but they won't purchase health insurance- Therefore if you make it gov't funded it will in some fashion take over the free will of the people and market for it. What does that say? Does that say "Well people are stupid and we must force the idiots to get insurance because the gov't knows what's good for you" or does that say "Everyone says its an issue but they can afford a house and a car but not insurance"

If anyone wanted it on a large scale it would be affordable. It's law already.

**Strype** · #39 (**permalink**) 10-10-08, 10:38 PM

AND HOW THE F DOES THIS THREAD GO THIS FAR WITHOUT LIGHT BEING SHED UPON THIS!!!

**Strype** · #40 (**permalink**) 10-12-08, 12:06 AM

**DarkFireGT** · #41 (**permalink**) 10-12-08, 12:39 PM

No, car insurance isn't under government control. But, it is illegal to drive car without carrying it. That's my point. If the government thinks that car insurance is important enough for everyone to have it, they should also believe that health insurance is just as important, and make sure that it is available and affordable to all US Americans, and easily attainable. That's all.

As I stated earlier, people are much more likely to do something if it's simply deducted from their paycheck, and they have a few easy, affordable options. As for free market, the health care industry is running under a free market right now, and doesn't work for the average blue collared family. I am definitely not saying that the HCI should be run by the government. All I'm saying is that there should be regulations requiring health care to be affordable, possibly income based (may 3%-5% of monthly income), and also that employers with more than 100 employees should be required to coordinate the benefits.

strtrcr50 · #42 (**permalink**) 10-12-08, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jikelly

No that's a great price, but we both know your low priced plan is not common.

It's similar in price and coverages to my last job.

**RookieOne** · #43 (**permalink**) 10-13-08, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFireGT

No, car insurance isn't under government control. But, it is illegal to drive car without carrying it. That's my point. If the government thinks that car insurance is important enough for everyone to have it, they should also believe that health insurance is just as important, and make sure that it is available and affordable to all US Americans, and easily attainable. That's all.

Commendable sentiment, but your analogy is flawed.....

Car Insurance is mandated. I can't afford car insurance, thus I don't get a car and take the bus.

Health Insurance is mandated. I can't afford health insurance......thus......um, I kill myself???

I know, a bit extreme.....but it's the direct comparison. You can't mandate something like that without providing an alternative to the current situation since there is no "Don't Have a Car" option.

**DarkFireGT** · #44 (**permalink**) 10-13-08, 10:34 AM

Right, but that's the thing... It would have to be made affordable. That's my whole arguement. No matter what plan goes through, health care will have to be made affordable, for it to work.

**RookieOne** · #45 (**permalink**) 10-13-08, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFireGT

Right, but that's the thing... It would have to be made affordable. That's my whole arguement. No matter what plan goes through, health care will have to be made affordable, for it to work.

ahhhh! Thats the crux of the debate, IMO. The "Assumption" of affordable healthcare plans is the foundation of BOTH Candidate's plans, however, no one thus far has explained their plan clearly for HOW to get lower costs.

That's my major hangup with it is that whole point. As an example, I could walk into a Ferrari dealership and want to buy a 430. Obviously, my income would HAVE to be increased for me to afford it. If I "ASSUME" my income will increase enough to cover the future monthly payments I should be justified in purchasing the Ferrari......but the dealer ain't going to give me the keys until I HAVE the money or credit for the purchase price.

My contention is that drastic change within the system because its too expensive is not justified just because we make the "Assumption" that costs will HAVE to be lower for the plan to work. Thats just assuming that it will work and thus, defacto, everything that has to happen for it to work...will be done.

my $.02

**GT40XStang9** · #46 (**permalink**) 10-13-08, 02:01 PM

Obama's 95% Illusion - WSJ.com

Tonys96Cobra · #47 (**permalink**) 10-13-08, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strtrcr50

As I posted in another thread, I pay under $50 a week for health care coverage. Is that excessive to you?

Unfortunately, this is not the the norm. I have to pay $800 a month for my family, and that;s with zero maternity coverage. If I want maternity, its $1100 a month. We are healthy as can be, no diseases or history of diseases.

I also own my own business, and if forced to pay for health care for my employees, I will either have to fire them all and find work I can do by myself, or close up shop. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be in that situation.

I don't want universal health care, but a price break would be welcome.

strtrcr50 · #48 (**permalink**) 10-13-08, 07:13 PM

I suspect a large part of my health care pricing comes from the fact that I'm the only one on it. Pretty much everywhere I've worked in the last 7 years or so have had me in the 40-60 a week range for good coverage for single tho.