[caballo]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

No, it's not cut and dried. That's why the only reasonable solution is a flat tax across the board. Pay your equal percentage based on your income. For instance if it's 17%, then you pay 17% if you make $18K, you pay 17% if you make $18M.

I'm down for 10% across the board. NO loopholes. No exceptions. ALL INCOME!!!

[Dusstbuster]

A family of 2 working full time at McDonalds around here would be making $33,280 (gross)...that puts them NEAR the national average does it not?

While I know it won't go into effect the more I read on this fair tax the more it seems to make sense...

At face value it seems absurd but when you starting reading in on it you realize it's not too "far out" there...

[Reimann]

Originally Posted by Gearbanger 101

Maybe he can use some of the money he's saved by not paying his taxes over the last few years in order to off set the tax hike...what do you think?

And what do you mean he "only " brings in about $250,000 a year?

Awww, the poor guy......only 250K a year huh. Pleeeaaasseee .....I'm lucky if I make that much in 4-years my friend. I have zero sympathy for him and anyone like him!!!

Anyone who thinks they've got it tough pulling down 250K a year needs to quit what they're doing now and work at McDonalds for a year to see how the majority pf us live!



On a side note....interesting read.

Say It Isn’t So, Joe! Wurzelbacher Not A Real $250K Plumber? | Steve Young on Politics

Ahem...

Originally Posted by Reimann

Did you even read anything in this thread before posting that bit of brillance? We're talking about Joe the Plumber here, who is looking to buy the company he works for and it only brings in about $250,000 a year. This has nothing to do with millionaires.

From the original article:

Wurzelbacher said he planned to become the owner of a small plumbing business that will take in more than the $250,000 amount at which Obama plans to begin raising tax rates.

The company only brings in $250,000 a year, not him personally. That's a small company.

And I'm not interested in all the Joe the Plumber conspiracy theories going around right now. He said to Obama that his business only takes in $250,000 and was afraid that Obama was going to raise taxes on it and Obama basically said that yes he was because he wanted to spread the wealth. Everything else, whether Joe really is a plumber or if he is registered to vote and all that, is just a distraction from what Obama said he was going to do to small businesses.

[svttech76]

Originally Posted by Gearbanger 101

Jealous....of course I would be.....who wouldn’t? Why should the high-enders get all the breaks? Do you honestly think they’re pulling down that kind of dough because they work harder than you and me or anyone on the bottom?

The kind of jobs that these people are working to make that kind of income is largely due to where they’re from, who they are and whom they know. It’s got little to do with what they know or the level of competency or dedication to doing their job they have. These privileged few have been getting breaks their entire lives and the last thing they need is to be rewarded for it?

So no....I haven't any sympathy for them. I know people who work twice as hard only to make half as much. If you’re making that kind of scratch it’s kind of like owning a high end sports car. If you afford to drive a Ferrari, you can certainly afford to maintain it!

WOAHHHHHHHHH!!!


Hold on a minute... your post has so much wrong with it it's not even funny..

I know a few families making that kind of money.

One is a friend I went to school with he worked hard and studied hard and he is a lawyer now and married a pharmacist they are well over 250k


another guy I know makes that on his own, he has a large independent auto repair shop this guy trained me and I was his apprentice at a honda dealer back in the mid 90's.. you want to know how he got to own a large shop that earns him well over 250k a year clean..

really really hard work is the answer, he worked 6 days a week at the honda dealer open until close.. sometimes 16 hours on nights we stayed open til midnight and then on sundays he did side jobs until sundown.

he produced over 180+ hours a week in billed labor and made over 150k a year as a dealer tech back in the 90's thats how he put himself in the position today to own his large shop and the building it's in outright with no loans..

this guy worked so hard that now not even 50 years old he can't open his hands fully he is hunched over and is pretty much crippled.. But back in the day he was by far the hardest working and best tech I have ever seen.. thats how he is able to have multiple vacation homes now for his family to enjoy..


you want to know why I don't have the stuff these friends of mine have today..

1. I did not study in school like my lawyer friend.. While he was busting his ass in HS, collage and law school I was busy playing video games and drinking.. So should I be surprised that they are better off than me today..

2. I don't have a tenth on the work ethic of the guy i know with the shop.. he will work circles around me crippled, in his sleep and with his hands tied behind his back. I never even see that guy even take a break. he ate with a tool in his hand.. I don't have that drive but at least I can admit it..

Most of us either don't have the talent, education or drive to earn that kind of life.. I don't have the drive I am far to lazy to do it in the blue collar world and i don't have a special talent or education to do it in another way so i live the sub 100k life most of us have.

thats not the governments fault or rich peoples fault or societies fault that I will never be rich, it's my own fault for decisions I made back when i was in school and it's m fault today for being to lazy to become rich the hard way..

So please not everybody with money is a trust fund baby who got breaks there whole life..

Funny thing is most trust fund babies tend to be liberals, I guess if you don't have to work for your riches it's easy to be a communist and try to tax the hell out of people who are actually working for their riches..

Ohh one funny thing about taxes..

In the great socialist state of massachusetts we have a optional tax rate.. you can elect to pay extra income tax over the percentage massachusetts steals from us at gun point already to give to illegal alien criminals and crackwhores for free health care, free food and cheap housing.. while i a natural born american citizen pay 70 dollars a week for a single plan for heath insurance with tons of co pays and I pay for my food and my housing.. BTW if i cancel my health insurance I have to pay a fine on my taxes next year since it's law in the soviet socialist republic of massachusetts to have health insurance that I have never used in 4 years.

do you want to know how much the communist politicians ( all our congressmen and our senators in this fine commonwealth) paid extra...

0

thats right 0

But they want me and all the other suckers that still live here to pay a higher percentage..

We even had a ballot question 4 years ago and a large majority voted to abolish the state income tax and they told us to **** off and we still have the income tax and the morons that live here vote in the same thieves every election..

[Venom351R]

+1

I agree w/ SVT 100%


Maine is just a Sub Division of Mass, we have some very liberal people running for congress and I hope they do not get in. We are democrat controlled in the state house and in the governors office and guess what one of the proposed laws is on this years ballot.

A law to add more tax's to beer, whine, snack foods..exc exc exc.. to fund a failing heath care program put in place by the government. Its his pride and joy but in order to keep it running he wants to tax everyone more then we already are.... Great idea huh? Its actually already a law, what we are voting on in Nov is to repeal it.

[timeless2]

Hearing your guys' tales of exorbitant taxation makes me happy to live where I do. Knock the Midwest all you want, but I pay very little in state, property, and luxury taxes living in Iowa. My salary figure doesn't look at all great when compared to coastal numbers, but then again, the tax base and cost of living here are quite low in comparison.

Thanks for sharing that anecdote, Mike.

[BlackArtemis]

Originally Posted by timeless2

Hearing your guys' tales of exorbitant taxation makes me happy to live where I do. Knock the Midwest all you want, but I pay very little in state, property, and luxury taxes living in Iowa. My salary figure doesn't look at all great when compared to coastal numbers, but then again, the tax base and cost of living here are quite low in comparison.

Thanks for sharing that anecdote, Mike.

Nothing wrong with the midwest, Though if I had that much snow I would want to be near some mountains!

My ex moved from Arkansas to PA, they had a huge brick house with custom tile work etc. They were able to sell that and get a POS McMansion that started falling apart after a year of ownership (1" settlement cracks)

They move to Tennessee and were able to buy a huge house again.

People forget location determines a lot.

[timeless2]

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

Nothing wrong with the midwest, Though if I had that much snow I would want to be near some mountains!

My ex moved from Arkansas to PA, they had a huge brick house with custom tile work etc. They were able to sell that and get a POS McMansion that started falling apart after a year of ownership (1" settlement cracks)

They move to Tennessee and were able to buy a huge house again.

People forget location determines a lot.

To be honest, we don't get as much snow here as they used to 25 to 30 years ago. The jet stream brings down more Artic air mass, but most of the precipitation drawn up from the gulf pushes east of where I'm located (the Omaha metro area). Central and Eastern Iowa, Wisconsin, and Northern Illinois got a lot more snow and rain this past year than we did.

I think at one point, we might have had 6 inches at once and that was our "big" storm of this past winter.
As for mountains being nearby, there are none in the "backyard" so to speak, but I do live in the Loess Hills (Google it) and there are still some pretty fun slopes to ski and tube down.

Totally. It's all about the three truisms of real estate: location, location, location.

[jikelly]

I think I am firmly for a progressive tax. The wealthy seem to always get the breaks. They are always the ones whom the government wants to give federal aid to. Sure maybe they are the ones doing major investments that can fuel the economy, but when you've got 4 kids and only pull in 75,000 a year you could really use some of those tax breaks.

Maybe 5% up to 50,000, like 7% at 75,000, 10% at 100,000 and 192% at 500,000.

[BlackArtemis]

Oooooo Neb

Omaha Stylee is the **** we come with!

[timeless2]

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

Oooooo Neb

Omaha Stylee is the **** we come with!

OK, I've put up enough OT posts. Heh!

Sorry.

[BlackArtemis]

one more!




Obama wants to spread a little bit more than just the wealth!

[Therian]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

Maybe pulling $250K a year doesn't qualify as 'tough', but it certainly isn't 'rich' either.

I'm more inclined to believe a flat tax across the board is fair. I too believe that a progressive tax system essentially punishes people who were motivated and worked to become successful.

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

$250K income (salary) is not that much money. It's not even close to being rich. Even a million dollars really isn't that much money today if you think about it.

Yes, it is rich. It's rich where you live, and it's rich where I live. How can you claim otherwise? What is your definition of rich? Rich to me, is having a substantial surplus of disposable income. How could you not have that if you are earning 250k a year? I suppose, if you own 4 cars, a 6 bedroom house, and a summer home in the Hamptons, then yeah, maybe your disposable income will be lower..........

You're still rich though!

Originally Posted by EMW150

You're dillusional. What about these people who took chances and put everything on the line to start a business? Scratched and scratched to make payroll every week, sleepless nights...... You act like anyone with money had it handed to them on a silver platter. It's one thing to want to better yourself to their financial position, it's another just to sit back and stay in your go nowhere job and demonize those who have taken the chances to further their position in life. You have issues.

Strawman.

[jikelly]

I agree with Therian.

[Therian]

Originally Posted by caballo

Just because you pull down 250k a year in a small business doesn't mean you NET 250K a year. Obama wants his tax to take effect on Gross receipts iirc. That means if a business owner grosses $250, 000.00 a year but only nets a 30k profit he is FUBAR under Obama's plan...

FUBAR for us is SNAFU for the gubment.

Originally Posted by caballo

You don't get it. People who have an INCOME of 250k are WAY different that Small Business Owners who gross 250K. And MOST SBO are not a "priviledged few", but even if they were, who are you to judge in this way?

Seriously, you've always come across as a cool head when it comes to stuff like this, but that post is about as school yard as they come lathered with jealousy and dare I say overtones of hatred. Total shock, coming from you...

Originally Posted by Reimann

Ahem...


From the original article:

The company only brings in $250,000 a year, not him personally. That's a small company.

I may be incorrect here - I searched for a bit trying to make sure I had the facts right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I see nothing in the tax plan that speaks towards gross business earnings being taxed. The only thing I see is the 6% payroll tax on families that make 250+ or individuals that make 200+.

Even if this did apply to businesses, as we all know, they are taxed on Net Income, not Gross Income.

Anyone who has 'worked their hands to the bone' for their business, and put in hours of hardwork, will do a couple hours of research or will hire an accountant to make the necessary entries to lower his/her net income.

For example:

"an owner can write off any expenses s/he makes into employee health care plan. An employer can also write off 15% up to $45,000 if the owner opens up a Keogh or SEP IRA account. Additionally, the company can choose to offer the account to employees and write off anything the company puts in for employees in addition to the 15%/$45,000. Even if a company makes over $250,000 net after doing these things,there are many ways to reduce their taxes and net income."

Next, how many sole proprietorship small businesses are there making over $250,000 net income? Probably not many, right? Probably less than the 2% of all small businesses that make over $250,000.

So with 98% of small businesses making under 250,000 net income, I see an overblown situation.

McCain's 23m figure was wrong

[timeless2]

Not sure if we can put a hard definition on this one.

Rich, wealthy, happy, free, etc. These are relative and often times subjective.

Agree? Disagree?

[BlackArtemis]

actually making 250k where I live is kinda average.

[BlackArtemis]

The only thing I have to say is thank god My father's business is a one man deal...

[Therian]

Originally Posted by timeless2

Not sure if we can put a hard definition on this one.

Rich, wealthy, happy, free, etc. These are relative and often times subjective.

Agree? Disagree?

Yes sir, but I would suggest that if someone doesn't feel rich making $250,000, they're doing something wrong.

I'm using the definition of rich that I posted above...

Of course it is all relative, but I have a hard time with someone asserting that you're not wealthy/rich if you're 'only' making $250,000 a year.

[Therian]

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

actually making 250k where I live is kinda average.

I hope you're not talking about Thailand

Seriously, though? Average? Not really.

[timeless2]

Originally Posted by Therian

Yes sir, but I would suggest that if someone doesn't feel rich making $250,000, they're doing something wrong.

I'm using the definition of rich that I posted above...

Of course it is all relative, but I have a hard time with someone asserting that you're not wealthy/rich if you're 'only' making $250,000 a year.

If someone makes $250,000 as an individual and doesn’t feel prosperous, perhaps his/her expense ratio is weighted the wrong way.

If someone makes $250,000 as a business entity and doesn’t feel prosperous, perhaps his/her expense ratio is weighted the wrong way.

Reads the same.

Now, the difference (in many, many cases) is that someone running a business is likely going to have more expenses beyond their personal locus of control. Operations, shipping, payroll, facilities, equipment, insurance, taxes, etc are all variable and subject to change given market conditions. It’s easy to see how quickly a stream of incoming cash, even the amount of $250,000, can be saturated.

On the flip side, a person who has a family with a gratuitous amount of luxuries might also consume such a cash flow, but is there really a direct benefit to their consumptive pattern? Sure, they might “stimulate” the economy with excessive spending, but when everyone jumps on this bandwagon, we tend to end up where we are today. Read: overstepping your means. This type of individual could be seen as "rich", given the nature of required variable expenses when compared to income.

Put it like this in direct contrast of two households: A quarter million annually for me would definitely put me in the realm of feeling “rich”. Heck, I feel extremely blessed now, and I’m nowhere near that mark. Conversely, a relative of mine, with two businesses (farming and real estate) sees a quarter million as not “rich”, but barely making it. Why? We have two totally different frames of reference with respect to expenditures.

Therefore, I don’t think we can safely apply a label of “rich” to an income stream of $250,000. Where does the threshold change? Hard to say, and it’s very relational to the situation of the individual/business/organization.

[BlackArtemis]

The cheapest house in my neighborhood is 550,000

it says the median income was $130k in 2000

[jikelly]

Rich at 250,000 would depend on region (where you live) as well.

[BlackArtemis]

thats house hold income, about 100k per male and 60k for females

But i know for a fact that people in my immediate area are making 250-500k

[BlackArtemis]

Funny thing being a few of them employ people in their businesses, those people don't make 250k, I hope they enjoy their tax cut in the unemployment line, cause they will be the first to go.


When saddled with the choice of cutting your take home salary vs firing a few expendable people ( or even firing and rehiring new people at a cheaper rate)

guess which one happens more often?