[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by jikelly

but when you've got 4 kids and only pull in 75,000 a year you could really use some of those tax breaks.

Sorry, but I have to say it... Why would somebody have 4 kids knowing they can't afford them with their income? That is just completely irresponsible and hardly shows much concern for their own children.

So, people who've acted responsibly and made wise choices should have to sacrifice more of their earnings to make up the difference for those who haven't. That's !

[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

Funny thing being a few of them employ people in their businesses, those people don't make 250k, I hope they enjoy their tax cut in the unemployment line, cause they will be the first to go.


When saddled with the choice of cutting your take home salary vs firing a few expendable people ( or even firing and rehiring new people at a cheaper rate)

guess which one happens more often?

[Therian]

Originally Posted by timeless2

If someone makes $250,000 as an individual and doesn’t feel prosperous, perhaps his/her expense ratio is weighted the wrong way.

If someone makes $250,000 as a business entity and doesn’t feel prosperous, perhaps his/her expense ratio is weighted the wrong way.

Reads the same.

Now, the difference (in many, many cases) is that someone running a business is likely going to have more expenses beyond their personal locus of control. Operations, shipping, payroll, facilities, equipment, insurance, taxes, etc are all variable and subject to change given market conditions. It’s easy to see how quickly a stream of incoming cash, even the amount of $250,000, can be saturated.

On the flip side, a person who has a family with a gratuitous amount of luxuries might also consume such a cash flow, but is there really a direct benefit to their consumptive pattern? Sure, they might “stimulate” the economy with excessive spending, but when everyone jumps on this bandwagon, we tend to end up where we are today. Read: overstepping your means. This type of individual could be seen as "rich", given the nature of required variable expenses when compared to income.

Put it like this in direct contrast of two households: A quarter million annually for me would definitely put me in the realm of feeling “rich”. Heck, I feel extremely blessed now, and I’m nowhere near that mark. Conversely, a relative of mine, with two businesses (farming and real estate) sees a quarter million as not “rich”, but barely making it. Why? We have two totally different frames of reference with respect to expenditures.

Therefore, I don’t think we can safely apply a label of “rich” to an income stream of $250,000. Where does the threshold change? Hard to say, and it’s very relational to the situation of the individual/business/organization.

Lots of good points. It is indeed hard to make a claim for something across the board. I believe I've spoken towards this point before.

Indeed, there will be some who do not feel rich at $250,000 for whatever special circumstances they may be in.

On average however, and for the average person making $250,000+ a year, I would think that they would consider themselves rich. Again, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe my views on this are a product of my environment completely, and I'm out to lunch. I grew up with a single parent, working as a librarian, supported by the modest insurance from the death of my Father. I felt rich, and we were nowhere close to $60,000 a year annual income, let alone $250,000.

When you apply something like this across the country, I have a feeling that you will find those making $250,000+ a year are doing very well for themselves, and I really have a hard time believing that a 6% tax is going to put them in the poor house. Again, maybe I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

The cheapest house in my neighborhood is 550,000

it says the median income was $130k in 2000

Definitely a wealthy neighborhood, and yet a 250k income is 100% higher than average.

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

Funny thing being a few of them employ people in their businesses, those people don't make 250k, I hope they enjoy their tax cut in the unemployment line, cause they will be the first to go.


When saddled with the choice of cutting your take home salary vs firing a few expendable people ( or even firing and rehiring new people at a cheaper rate)

guess which one happens more often?

They make the necessary accounting adjustments so that neither has to happen?

[Therian]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

Sorry, but I have to say it... Why would somebody have 4 kids knowing they can't afford them with their income? That is just completely irresponsible and hardly shows much concern for their own children.

So, people who've acted responsibly and made wise choices should have to sacrifice more of their earnings to make up the difference for those who haven't. That's !

Yeah, I mean I guess they should have had those abortions, right?

[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by Therian

Yeah, I mean I guess they should have had those abortions, right?

How about not getting knocked-up in the first place? I mean most people who are having sex know what causes babies....that would be the most responsible action.

[Therian]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

How about not getting knocked-up in the first place? I mean most people who are having sex know what causes babies....that would be the most responsible action.

Well clearly that's the most obvious answer...

[BlackArtemis]

The funny thing is if you want to adopt you have up to two years of review and all sorts of legal hoops including whether or not you can afford them. But if you want to knock out 7 kids feed them fastfood all day and live on welfare you don't have anyone stopping you. I say moandatory intelligence screenings at age 16, you get neutered or spayed if you fail.

[DBMSTNG]

anybody who isn't rich and wants a flat tax, needs to learn about the economics and politics of our country before speaking. flat tax = terrible idea for the average guy.

[EMW150]

Originally Posted by Therian

Strawman.

Not even close.

[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by DBMSTNG

anybody who isn't rich and wants a flat tax, needs to learn about the economics and politics of our country before speaking. flat tax = terrible idea for the average guy.

Care to explain? A flat tax at even 20% would be a lot of tax relief for our 'average' family.

[DBMSTNG]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

Care to explain? A flat tax at even 20% would be a lot of tax relief for our 'average' family.

a flat tax of 20% would mean significantly less tax revenue. the only way a 20% flat tax would work is if government spending would be drastically cut.

people like to bitch and complain about tax breaks to the wealthy, but what most fail to realize is what percentage of tax revenue is paid by the wealthiest 10% in America compared to the average Joe. the more you make, the higher percentage you are taxed. 30% of $1,000,000 is a hell of alot more than 20% of $50,000. change that 30% to 20% and the government has $100,000 less tax revenue.

[Gearbanger 101]

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

actually making 250k where I live is kinda average.

Originally Posted by Therian

I hope you're not talking about Thailand

Seriously, though? Average? Not really.

Yeah....he never really did clarify, but I’m assuming he’s talking American Dollars.

1 Thai baht currently equals 0.029542 U.S. dollars. So.....yes, I would agree, if you were only pulling in 250,000 Thai baht per year, you’re probably not doing well at all. But convert the two and $250K US dollars is about 8.4-million baht.....which my guess means you would be living like a King in Thailand.

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

Sorry, but I have to say it... Why would somebody have 4 kids knowing they can't afford them with their income? That is just completely irresponsible and hardly shows much concern for their own children.

So, people who've acted responsibly and made wise choices should have to sacrifice more of their earnings to make up the difference for those who haven't. That's !

Ahhh, in a perfect world, right Lisa. What are these stupid people thinking trying to have a family and work an average paying job? How dare they try to have their cake and eat it to. Who exactly to they think they are!!!

Wow!

[Reimann]

Originally Posted by Therian

I may be incorrect here - I searched for a bit trying to make sure I had the facts right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I see nothing in the tax plan that speaks towards gross business earnings being taxed. The only thing I see is the 6% payroll tax on families that make 250+ or individuals that make 200+.

Even if this did apply to businesses, as we all know, they are taxed on Net Income, not Gross Income.

Anyone who has 'worked their hands to the bone' for their business, and put in hours of hardwork, will do a couple hours of research or will hire an accountant to make the necessary entries to lower his/her net income.

For example:

"an owner can write off any expenses s/he makes into employee health care plan. An employer can also write off 15% up to $45,000 if the owner opens up a Keogh or SEP IRA account. Additionally, the company can choose to offer the account to employees and write off anything the company puts in for employees in addition to the 15%/$45,000. Even if a company makes over $250,000 net after doing these things,there are many ways to reduce their taxes and net income."

Next, how many sole proprietorship small businesses are there making over $250,000 net income? Probably not many, right? Probably less than the 2% of all small businesses that make over $250,000.

So with 98% of small businesses making under 250,000 net income, I see an overblown situation.

McCain's 23m figure was wrong

If any of that is true than Obama should have tried to reassure the plumber that his business would be affected, or barely so, instead of making the "spread the wealth around" comment.

Originally Posted by BlackArtemis

The funny thing is if you want to adopt you have up to two years of review and all sorts of legal hoops including whether or not you can afford them. But if you want to knock out 7 kids feed them fastfood all day and live on welfare you don't have anyone stopping you. I say moandatory intelligence screenings at age 16, you get neutered or spayed if you fail.

Ever seen the movie my avatar is from, Idiocracy? I think we are heading towards that world fast and need to follow your suggestion to restore "Survival of the Fittest."

[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by Gearbanger 101

Ahhh, in a perfect world, right Lisa. What are these stupid people thinking trying to have a family and work an average paying job? How dare they try to have their cake and eat it to. Who exactly to they think they are!!!

Wow!

Well, if you can't afford it, don't do it and then whine about not having enough money to have your cake and eat it too. If you want 4 kids, make sure your income justifies being able to have and raise them properly. If the money's not there, then I guess people should adjust accordingly and stop squirting out babies they can't feed, insure, or educate. My parents would probably have liked to have had more children. I'm an only child because my parents wanted to be sure that they would be able to provide for me the way they felt they should.

We all want different things in life. Somebody's else's desire to have 4 kids isn't any more important to then than my desire to have nice things is to me. I didn't want a bunch of my own kids to support so why the hell would I want to have to contribute to the support of other people's kids? I don't yearn for a bunch of kids, but I would like to be driving a $90K beamer; however, since it's not reasonably within my means at this time I needed to set that notion aside for now. When the 'gubment' contributes to my new 650i convertible, I'll probably feel a lot nicer about welfare, WIC, ADC, foodstamps, etc.

If it didn't affect me excessively and what I take home, I really wouldn't care what they do, but since my family's income has to be pillaged (for about thirty percent of what we make) to make up for those people's failure to plan and make wise decisions, yeah that infuriates me.

[dew22]

To those making the case for the increase at 250,000.


Would you really rather the Govt. Have the money?

Really?

[EMW150]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

(for about thirty percent of what we make)

You're way low at 30 percent if you look at the whole picture. You're taxed on your labor, then that money is taxed again when you buy anything, then it's taxed again if you sell, then they tax what you made on it. If you own a house you have to pay property taxes on it. Pay taxes on your labor and materials that you change in your house, value goes up....guess what....reassessed for increased taxes...Sell your house....capital gains taxes....The last figure I heard all said and done was about 50 cents on the dollar of taxes. Next they want to tax the carbon that comes out of your lungs when you exhale if your footprint is too big. (since they ruled carbon dioxide a pollutant now in the Supreme Court)

[DBMSTNG]

Originally Posted by Lisa GT

Well, if you can't afford it, don't do it and then whine about not having enough money to have your cake and eat it too. If you want 4 kids, make sure your income justifies being able to have and raise them properly. If the money's not there, then I guess people should adjust accordingly and stop squirting out babies they can't feed, insure, or educate. My parents would probably have liked to have had more children. I'm an only child because my parents wanted to be sure that they would be able to provide for me the way they felt they should.

We all want different things in life. Somebody's else's desire to have 4 kids isn't any more important to then than my desire to have nice things is to me. I didn't want a bunch of my own kids to support so why the hell would I want to have to contribute to the support of other people's kids? I don't yearn for a bunch of kids, but I would like to be driving a $90K beamer; however, since it's not reasonably within my means at this time I needed to set that notion aside for now. When the 'gubment' contributes to my new 650i convertible, I'll probably feel a lot nicer about welfare, WIC, ADC, foodstamps, etc.

If it didn't affect me excessively and what I take home, I really wouldn't care what they do, but since my family's income has to be pillaged (for about thirty percent of what we make) to make up for those people's failure to plan and make wise decisions, yeah that infuriates me.

see now, the fault in your logic is that you expect Americans to be fiscally responsible. what are you thinking? act first, think about consequences later! that is the American way!

[/sarcasm]

[caballo]

For what it's worth, I was pulling in a steadt 6 figure income before we had our 3RD child. Now I'm jobless. Have been for a month. Am I irresponsible? I have no mortgage/rent and no car/creditcard payments.

I'm looking for a job. Any job. But people don't want to hire me for "menial" jobs because they are afraid I'll leave as soon as one in my field opens up. And e live in a rural area so all those jobs are filled. I can move, and I want to, but I'm broke. And I'm not going anywhere that makes me a "paycheck" to my family instead of a Father. Selfish? Maybe. Stupid? perhaps financially. But my wife and kids will know we are a family and THEY are more important than cash. I spend time with them everyday. Meaningful time. not just acknowledging they exist. If that's irresponsible so be it.

[DBMSTNG]

Originally Posted by caballo

For what it's worth, I was pulling in a steadt 6 figure income before we had our 3RD child. Now I'm jobless. Have been for a month. Am I irresponsible? I have no mortgage/rent and no car/creditcard payments.

I'm looking for a job. Any job. But people don't want to hire me for "menial" jobs because they are afraid I'll leave as soon as one in my field opens up. And e live in a rural area so all those jobs are filled. I can move, and I want to, but I'm broke. And I'm not going anywhere that makes me a "paycheck" to my family instead of a Father. Selfish? Maybe. Stupid? perhaps financially. But my wife and kids will know we are a family and THEY are more important than cash. I spend time with them everyday. Meaningful time. not just acknowledging they exist. If that's irresponsible so be it.

did you stash any of that 6 figure salary away for a rainy day fund? i wouldn't say you are irresponsible, but i do think with the salary you did make, and the lack of bills, you should have been (if you aren't) more prepared for a situation like the one you are in now.

way too many people in this country live paycheck to paycheck regardless of how much money they make.

[Strype]

6 figures



Tis a dream for me

[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by caballo

For what it's worth, I was pulling in a steadt 6 figure income before we had our 3RD child. Now I'm jobless. Have been for a month. Am I irresponsible? I have no mortgage/rent and no car/creditcard payments.

I'm looking for a job. Any job. But people don't want to hire me for "menial" jobs because they are afraid I'll leave as soon as one in my field opens up. And e live in a rural area so all those jobs are filled. I can move, and I want to, but I'm broke. And I'm not going anywhere that makes me a "paycheck" to my family instead of a Father. Selfish? Maybe. Stupid? perhaps financially. But my wife and kids will know we are a family and THEY are more important than cash. I spend time with them everyday. Meaningful time. not just acknowledging they exist. If that's irresponsible so be it.

Cab, you're definitely the exception and not the rule and I think you know you're not one of the 'typical' entitlement types I generalized about. I think you're absolutely entitled to unemployment and whatever else you qualify for given your situation and HAVING WORKED AND PAID INTO THE SYSTEM until you lost your job.

Supplemental income from a government source should be about getting through a hard time like you're experiencing instead of being a way of life as it is for so many.

Edit: And I should probably say that I may be particularly jaded on this subject as I now live and in New Orleans lived in an area where there is a lot of abuse of the public assistance programs such as welfare, ADC, food stamps, etc. A lot of people use it to eek out an existence and don't even consider doing anything else, and I'm seeing a lot of that passing from generation to generation in my line of work.

[Strype]

I think Lisa and I share the same resentment towards the yahoos that screw up their lives, live beyond their means (I am personally one of those) and try to hold others back in school. That same level of stupidity in grade school or high school carries these people through life.

You see what I hate are those that interupt class and start fights for years. They copy other's homework. Then when school is but a memory they find themselves angry and jealous of those of us who did take the initiative. They are lost. They don't know enough to go to college. Those that do want someone else to pay for their college even though I helped pay for mine with a student loan. If I can do it anyone can. But school is just one example. College is but an example. Not everyone wants to go. But you get the jist.

This is how I feel when I see some moron I used to know. Now take that up a level. What in the world entitles me to make money off of those who live a level higher than me???

I make my own way. I like the state of Alabama to make it's own way. I like my money and my rights. I don't need other's money and I don't care what they do as long as it doesn't affect me. This is a southern and midwestern philosophy. It is no wonder that the south and the midwest vote the way we do.

[Reimann]

It's kinda interesting that the ones that like Obama's tax plan the most are Canadians...

[Lisa GT]

Originally Posted by Reimann

It's kinda interesting that the ones that like Obama's tax plan the most are Canadians...

Yeah, I pondered that too.

[Strype]

The Canadians were founded upon different principle. That's to be expected. What's not to be expected are the US Americans that want an overwhelming government.