[Ike83]

Originally Posted by Redline_351R

Israel = good

Hamas = Bad

/thread

+1

May God be faithful to His people Israel.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Ike83

Interesting. It would seem that YOUR list of Jewish violence doesn't begin until the year 1947. I guess you're COMPLELETELY forgetting the Arab violence that may have initiated it in the first place.

Let's go to the charts that show the Arab violence BEFORE 1947...shall we?

Please if you could return the favor and link your source? Thanks

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Ike83

+1

May God be faithful to His people Israel.

Lord, May Americans learn to be faithful to their own country, and their REAL God
Amen

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by DBMSTNG

be wary of propaganda. i'm just going to touch on a few subjects here due to it's length. i'm not disputing everything written, but will say that it is laced with propaganda and biased journalism.



the emphasis on the children is propaganda to sway people against Israel. i'm not denying that children have been hurt/killed. but truth is that the Palestinians, like Iraqi and Afghan insurgents are guerrilla fighters who hide amongst the general population. they don't fight military to military. the seek civilian deaths and when Israel unintentionally kills civilians they act as if Israel is fighting more dirty than themselves. Palestinians target civilians with their suicide bombers and rocket launches. Israel on the other hand has been dropping leaflets warning Palestinian civilians to leave the areas where Palestinian fighters are hiding amongst them.

There has just been too many instances of civilian collateral damage, to believe it is not being done on purpose.

same thing can be said about the U.S. and Canada about the Native Americans.

This is what I have pondered, it always seems to be the indigenous people that are trampled under foot, it is racism really.

this is taken somewhat out of context. from my understanding, there was never a sovereign nation of Palestinians in Israel. no established country. so they didn't take land from the country of Palestine because there never was a country of Palestine. something to that effect anyway. and Jews were exiled from Israel by the Romans 2000 years ago. so it is their ancestral land just as much as the Palestinians.

Palestine 1947 District And District Centers

Map of ancient Palestine

every group of people has it's extremists. it doesn't mean that they represent the views of that entire group. would we say that David Duke speaks for the majority of the U.S.? of course not.

You make a valid point, but it seems that most are sympathetic to one side or another. No one wins. Least of all the real victims.

neither side is innocent here. but as long as the Palestinians attack Israel with terrorism, it's hard to view them as victims. if the Palestinians would stop all attacks, call for a cease fire, and respect the cease fire, then there would be much support for them if they were attack by Israel.

Yes I used to think the same thing,
but search around and you will find that it was Israel who broke the ceasefire, In November, and the more you really study this situation, and it's history, honestly, and objectively you come to realize that one mans terrorist, is another mans patriot. This whole situation has been a part of our headlines and news all of our lives
and if we should research and analyze it as much as we can, after all it greatly effects us as US citizens, and effects the entire world. I admit I am still learning about this from both sides of the conflict, but when you tell me that it is justifiable for the Zionist to
do what they do because God says so? I have a problem with that and worse still are the teachings of this in the Christian churches by clergy who themselves have been indoctrinated into Zionistic beliefs that stem from Atheists who aren't even rightful heirs to this ancient land. And we are told to "just believe" or you aren't right with God?
I do enjoy a thread like this especially with Ike, we have gone round and round and are still no better off at resolving anything then the people actually involved in this conflict Still, I hope it brings interest, and discussion, there is always something new to learn, especially of such great importance.
Here is another one of the links I have found
it is from a Palestinian perspective, but since they are the most hated and ridiculed, why not check it out and see what they have to say? The comments are interesting, and the site is visited by Jews also.
Palestinian-Israeli Conflict For Beginners

[DBMSTNG]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

There has just been too many instances of civilian collateral damage, to believe it is not being done on purpose.

well a lot of it may have to do with what i talked about before where you have militants hiding amongst the civilians using them as human shields. that's how these islamic terrorists operate. Israel is letting the civilians know where they are bombing before bombing.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Palestine 1947 District And District Centers

Map of ancient Palestine

i understand that it was a region called Palestine. i was referring to the lack of an established government of Palestine. if i remember correctly, there never was one. also, like i said, Jews were in Palestine long ago as well.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

You make a valid point, but it seems that most are sympathetic to one side or another. No one wins. Least of all the real victims.

and that's where not resorting to terrorism would benefit the Palestinians. the should target military sites if they want respect from the world.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Yes I used to think the same thing,
but search around and you will find that it was Israel who broke the ceasefire, In November, ]

i did some research and it appears you are incorrect on who broke the ceasefire. Hamas fired 20 rockets and 18 mortars into Israel from June 19 to October 31 of 2008.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

and the more you really study this situation, and it's history, honestly, and objectively you come to realize that one mans terrorist, is another mans patriot.

if they were targeting the military only, i would agree with you. but targeting innocent civilians is terrorism no matter who is doing it.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

This whole situation has been a part of our headlines and news all of our lives
and if we should research and analyze it as much as we can, after all it greatly effects us as US citizens, and effects the entire world. I admit I am still learning about this from both sides of the conflict, but when you tell me that it is justifiable for the Zionist to
do what they do because God says so? I have a problem with that and worse still are the teachings of this in the Christian churches by clergy who themselves have been indoctrinated into Zionistic beliefs that stem from Atheists who aren't even rightful heirs to this ancient land. And we are told to "just believe" or you aren't right with God?

religion is a double edged sword. the Palestinians also believe God is telling them it's their land. Hamas also believes God wants Israel destroyed. i honestly believe there would be a lot less wars if there was no religion. too many "Holy wars" have been waged throughout history.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I do enjoy a thread like this especially with Ike, we have gone round and round and are still no better off at resolving anything then the people actually involved in this conflict Still, I hope it brings interest, and discussion, there is always something new to learn, especially of such great importance.
Here is another one of the links I have found
it is from a Palestinian perspective, but since they are the most hated and ridiculed, why not check it out and see what they have to say? The comments are interesting, and the site is visited by Jews also.
Palestinian-Israeli Conflict For Beginners

a good debate is always fun as long as people use facts to support their arguments, don't make irrational assumptions, and it remains civil. i think this one is doing good so far. and while we haven't found a solution, we also have treated each other with respect. if only the Palestinians and Israel could do the same, a solution would be found.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Lord, May Americans learn to be faithful to their own country, and their REAL God
Amen

Are you being facetious again?

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Please if you could return the favor and link your source? Thanks

Here is the link to my previous post...

Middle East Piece - Overview of Major Acts of Violence Against Jews in Palestine, 1919-1948

...and here are few more links that tell the same story:

This one describes one of the first attacks on Jews (after WW1) in 1920, when 5 Jews were killed and eleven wounded, causing the Jews to form a self defense group called the Haganah.

Jews and Arabs in Palestine, to 1939

Here's little bit about the Arab revolt in the 1930s, led by one of the most famous anti-Semites, Muhammed Amin al-Husayni, who actually had a sit down with Hitler during World War 2, in an effort to gain support for the annihilation of the Jewish people. Keep in mind, the Arab leaders of Palestine tried to PARTNER with the Nazis during the second World War.

Jews sided with the Allies.
Arabs sided with the Nazis.

1936?1939 Arab revolt in Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More on the Arab alliance between the Arabs and the Nazis...

Palestine During WW II

The Arabs took the side of the Axis, either overtly like Iraq or indirectly by withholding support for the Allies. Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini issued a fatwa- "summons to a holy war against Britain" in May 1941. The Mufti's widely heralded proclamation against Britain was declared in Iraq, where he was instrumental in "the pro-Nazi" Iraqi revolt of 1941.

Husseini soon became an honored guest of the Nazi leadership and met on several occasions with Hitler.

So from what I've gathered, it goes pretty much like this:

The Jewish people were FORCED out of Europe. Why? Because Adolf Eichman and Heinrich Himmler were responsible for coordinating the operation which would've had them EXTERMINATED, the Holocaust. So obviously the Jewish people had to leave. They then decided, probably for lack of a better place to go, to migrate back to their homeland. Upon arriving in their previous homeland, the land that belonged to them before they were exiled by the Babylonians and Assyrians...they THEN ran into MORE hostile resistance from the Arabs who were already residing in the area. Of course, the Arabs were NOT the original inhabitants of the region either...for the Islamic conquest didn't begin until AFTER Muhammed died in the 7th century A.D.. Before then it was controlled mostly by the Romans, and the Jews were able to live in peace under the Roman empire. In any event, the Jews were not able to remain in Europe, so they left. Apparently, at that point, they weren't welcome back in their homeland either...EVEN though they WEREN'T bringing hostility to the region, they were SIMPLY trying to find a place to LIVE IN PEACE. However, when you're dealing with the irrational mind of the Islamofascist, it's simply not enough to live in peace with your neighbor. Instantly the Arab nationalists in the region began ATTACKS on Jewish settlements, FORCING Jewish people to form self-defense groups (such as Irgun and Haganah). Shortly thereafter, Muhammed Amin al-Husayni declares a "fatwa" against Britain and the Jewish people, and even looked to the Nazis for support in destroying the Jews. Hitler denied Husayni because Hitler had already told Italy's Benito Mussolini that the Middle East was going to be left up to him to control, but that did NOT stop Husayni from going on a killing spree against the new Jewish settlements in the region.

Either way you look at it, the Jews were ATTACKED in Europe, and then they were ATTACKED in the Middle East. It would seem that these people can't go anywhere without being persecuted. That's just the way I see it.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I do enjoy a thread like this especially with Ike, we have gone round and round and are still no better off at resolving anything then the people actually involved in this conflict

Touche.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by DBMSTNG

i understand that it was a region called Palestine. i was referring to the lack of an established government of Palestine. if i remember correctly, there never was one. also, like i said, Jews were in Palestine long ago as well.

If you mean like an established country like the US with an anthem and all of that I haven't found anything to support that. I have found that there was currency distributed throughout Palestine,
and as a geographic territory, what is generally thought of today as "Palestine," has had many names from the earliest times to the present. There was a reference made to a government of Palestine under the British mandate.

i did some research and it appears you are incorrect on who broke the ceasefire. Hamas fired 20 rockets and 18 mortars into Israel from June 19 to October 31 of 2008.

Here is what I find regarding the ceasefire:
The cease-fire agreement that went into effect June 19, 2008, required that Israel lift the virtual siege of Gaza which Israel had imposed after the June 2007 Hamas takeover. Although the terms of the agreement were not made public at the time, they were included in a report published this week by the International Crisis Group (ICG), which obtained a copy of the understanding last June.

In addition to a halt in all military actions by both sides, the agreement called on Israel to increase the level of goods entering Gaza by 30 percent over the pre-lull period within 72 hours and to open all border crossings and "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza" within 13 days after the beginning of the cease-fire.

Nevertheless, Israeli officials freely acknowledged in interviews with ICG last June that they had no intention of opening the border crossings fully, even though they anticipated that this would be the source of serious conflict with Hamas.
The Israelis opened the access points only partially, and in late July Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni declared that the border crossings should remain closed until Hamas agreed to the release of Gilad Shalit, an IDF soldier abducted by Hamas in June 2006. The Hamas representative in Lebanon, Usam Hamdan, told the ICG in late December that the flow of goods and fuel into Gaza had been only 15 percent of its basic needs.

Despite Israel's refusal to end the siege, Hamas brought rocket and mortar fire from Gaza to a virtual halt last summer and fall, as revealed by a report by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) in Tel Aviv last month. ITIC is part of the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC), an NGO close to the Israeli intelligence community.
On Nov. 4 – just when the cease-fire was most effective – the IDF carried out an attack against a house in Gaza in which six members of Hamas' military wing were killed, including two commanders, and several more were wounded. The IDF explanation for the operation was that it had received intelligence that a tunnel was being dug near the Israeli security fence for the purpose of abducting Israeli soldiers.

Hamas officials asserted, however, that the tunnel was being dug for defensive purposes, not to capture IDF personnel, according to Pastor, and one IDF official confirmed that fact to him.

After that Israeli attack, the cease-fire completely fell apart, as Hamas began openly firing rockets into Israel, the IDF continued to carry out military operations inside Gaza, and the border crossings were "closed most of the time," according to the ITIC account.
IMO, the strangulation of much needed medical supplies and food
is in itself an act of war, and since Israel did not adhere to this part of the agreement, it effectively violated the "ceasefire".
Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel cease-fire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

The proposal to renew the cease-fire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

if they were targeting the military only, i would agree with you. but targeting innocent civilians is terrorism no matter who is doing it

I can't find anywhere where these small rockets, actually killed any Israeli civilians?

religion is a double edged sword. the Palestinians also believe God is telling them it's their land. Hamas also believes God wants Israel destroyed. i honestly believe there would be a lot less wars if there was no religion. too many "Holy wars" have been waged throughout history.

They both come from the same ancient heritage of Abraham, so why are the Palestinians excluded from the so-called promise the Jews adhere to?
God promised the descendants of the prophet Abraham the 'Promised Land', why are Palestinians defying the Almighty's prophecy?

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Ike83

Are you being facetious again?

Not at all I pray this in earnest, though it probably wont happen in my lifetime

Here is the link to my previous post...

Middle East Piece - Overview of Major Acts of Violence Against Jews in Palestine, 1919-1948

...and here are few more links that tell the same story:

This one describes one of the first attacks on Jews (after WW1) in 1920, when 5 Jews were killed and eleven wounded, causing the Jews to form a self defense group called the Haganah.

Jews and Arabs in Palestine, to 1939

Here's little bit about the Arab revolt in the 1930s, led by one of the most famous anti-Semites, Muhammed Amin al-Husayni, who actually had a sit down with Hitler during World War 2, in an effort to gain support for the annihilation of the Jewish people. Keep in mind, the Arab leaders of Palestine tried to PARTNER with the Nazis during the second World War.

Jews sided with the Allies.
Arabs sided with the Nazis.

1936?1939 Arab revolt in Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More on the Arab alliance between the Arabs and the Nazis...

Palestine During WW II





So from what I've gathered, it goes pretty much like this:

The Jewish people were FORCED out of Europe. Why? Because Adolf Eichman and Heinrich Himmler were responsible for coordinating the operation which would've had them EXTERMINATED, the Holocaust. So obviously the Jewish people had to leave. They then decided, probably for lack of a better place to go, to migrate back to their homeland. Upon arriving in their previous homeland, the land that belonged to them before they were exiled by the Babylonians and Assyrians...they THEN ran into MORE hostile resistance from the Arabs who were already residing in the area. Of course, the Arabs were NOT the original inhabitants of the region either...for the Islamic conquest didn't begin until AFTER Muhammed died in the 7th century A.D.. Before then it was controlled mostly by the Romans, and the Jews were able to live in peace under the Roman empire. In any event, the Jews were not able to remain in Europe, so they left. Apparently, at that point, they weren't welcome back in their homeland either...EVEN though they WEREN'T bringing hostility to the region, they were SIMPLY trying to find a place to LIVE IN PEACE. However, when you're dealing with the irrational mind of the Islamofascist, it's simply not enough to live in peace with your neighbor. Instantly the Arab nationalists in the region began ATTACKS on Jewish settlements, FORCING Jewish people to form self-defense groups (such as Irgun and Haganah). Shortly thereafter, Muhammed Amin al-Husayni declares a "fatwa" against Britain and the Jewish people, and even looked to the Nazis for support in destroying the Jews. Hitler denied Husayni because Hitler had already told Italy's Benito Mussolini that the Middle East was going to be left up to him to control, but that did NOT stop Husayni from going on a killing spree against the new Jewish settlements in the region.

Either way you look at it, the Jews were ATTACKED in Europe, and then they were ATTACKED in the Middle East. It would seem that these people can't go anywhere without being persecuted. That's just the way I see it.

OK-Lets start with the attacks on the Israeli settlers. According to facts, Zionism, came about in response to the rise of Europe's nationalism and anti-Jewish stance in the late 19th century, especially in Russia and France during the Dreyfus affair, and Germany after WW I.
Palestinian nationalism came in response to the presence of Zionism in Palestine, and most importantly because of the British intention to turn Palestine into a Jewish National Home,
Balfour Declaration
Ben Gurion said in 1919 "Everybody sees the problem in the relations between the Jews and the [Palestinian] Arabs. But not everybody sees that there's no solution to it. There is no solution! . . . The conflict between the interests of the Jews and the interests of the [Palestinian] Arabs in Palestine cannot be resolved by sophisms. I don't know any Arabs who would agree to Palestine being ours---even if we learn Arabic . . .and I have no need to learn Arabic. On the other hand, I don't see why 'Mustafa' should learn Hebrew. . . . There's a national question here. We want the country to be ours. The Arabs want the country to be theirs."
So they knew way back then that there was a problem even before
this was to happen. Violence seemed to be expected. He knew that it was not fair to the Palestinians to have their land and homes confiscated.
Later on he went on to say- That the Arab question was a"tragic question of fate" that arose only as a consequence of Zionism, and so was a "question of Zionist fulfillment in the light of Arab reality." In other words, this was a Zionist rather than an Arab question, posed to Zionists who were perplexed about how they could fulfill their aspirations in a land already inhabited by a Palestinian Arab majority.
As the number of Jews in Palestine doubled between 1931-1935, the Palestinian people became threatened with being dispossessed and for Jews becoming their masters. The Palestinian political movement was becoming more vocal and organized, which surprised Ben-Gurion. In his opinion, the demonstrations represented a "turning point" important enough to warrant Zionist concern. As he told Mapai comrades:
". . . they [referring to Palestinians] showed new power and remarkable discipline. Many of them were killed . . . this time not murderers and rioters, but political demonstrators. Despite the tremendous unrest, the order not to harm Jews was obeyed. This shows exceptional political discipline. There is no doubt that these events will leave a profound imprint on the [Palestinian] Arab movement. This time we have seen a political movement which must evoke the respect of the world.

But Ben-Gurion set limits. The Palestinian people were incapable by themselves of developing Palestine, and they had no right to stand in the way of the Jews. He argued in 1918, that Jews' rights sprang not only from the past, but also from the future. In 1924 he declared:
"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders." In 1928 he pronounced that "the [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to close the country to us [Jews]. What right do they have to the Negev desert, which is uninhabited?"; and in 1930, "The [Palestinian] Arabs have no right to the Jordan river, and no right to prevent the construction of a power plant [by a Jewish concern]. They have a right only to that which they have created and to their homes."
In other words, the Palestinian people are entitled to no political rights whatsoever, and if they have any rights to begin with, these rights are confined to their places of residence. Ironically, this statement was written when the Palestinian people constituted 85% of Palestine's population, and owned and operated over 97% of its lands!
Also he stated-"The right which the Arabs in Palestine have is one due to the inhabitants of any country . . . because they live here, and not because they are Arabs . . . The Arab inhabitants of Palestine should enjoy all the rights of citizens and all political rights, not only as individuals, but as a national community, just like the Jews."
So recognized that the land was the Palestinians and the Zionists were their to take it from them.
In 1936 (soon after the outbreak of the First Palestinian Intifada),-
"The Arabs fear of our power is intensifying, [Arabs] see exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn't matter whether or not their view is correct.... They see [Jewish] immigration on a giant scale .... they see the Jews fortify themselves economically .. They see the best lands passing into our hands. They see England identify with Zionism. ..... [Arabs are] fighting dispossession ... The fear is not of losing the land, but of losing homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn it into the homeland of the Jewish people. There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing: We both want Palestine ..... By our very presence and progress here, [we] have matured the [Arab] movement."

1938, Ben-Gurion also stated against the backdrop of the First Palestinian Intifada:

"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is ONLY half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."

So if the causes of Zionism had not risen, meaning European "anti-Semitism", then Palestinian nationalism might not have evolved into what it is today. It started with the Balfour Declaration.
This declaration, which was made to the Zionist Movement in 1917, signaled the future dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people because it did not address their political rights. On the other hand, the declaration recognized the political rights of the "Jewish people" around the world, despite the fact that the Jews in Palestine were under 8% of the total population as of 1914.
In response to this declaration, the Palestinian people started to collectively oppose the British Mandate, Jewish immigration, and land sales to the Zionist movement.

The Zionists knew that what they were doing was wrong, but hid behind the Balfour Declaration. They knew there would violence.

Finally Rather than dealing directly with the issues, sadly many Israelis and Zionists have chosen to ignore the existence of the Palestinians as a people. It should be emphasized that the hawk of all Israeli hawks, Ariel Sharon, has accepted the existence of a Palestinian state, in principle, in a portion of historic Palestine. Whether Israelis and Zionists like it or not, Palestine now exists as a postal code, international calling code, internet domain name, ...etc. in the heart of "Eretz Yisrael". The 8.5 million Palestinians are not going away, and the sooner Israelis and Zionists understand this simple message, the faster they shall start dealing with core issues of the conflict in a pragmatic way.
applying such logic is very dangerous since it would eliminate half United Nations' members overnight. It is simply not just to suppress the political, economic, and civil rights of the Palestinian people by claiming that they never previously had a state, distinct language, and distinct culture. Ironically, the Zionist movement has been encouraging Jews from all corners of the world to emigrate to "Eretz Yisrael", so that there is no real common denominator between all of these immigrants such as a common language, culture, country of origin, or even a unified interpretation of "who is a Jew".

I have heard that the Nazi affiliations were a false rumor, but that was from only one source, who said that if it was true, it was before the horrors of the truth of the Holocaust were known. I'm still looking into that one. Because if true, it actually is what drove the Jewish Zionist movement immigrate to Palestine in the first place.
Catch 22.

[DBMSTNG]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Here is what I find regarding the ceasefire:
The cease-fire agreement that went into effect June 19, 2008, required that Israel lift the virtual siege of Gaza which Israel had imposed after the June 2007 Hamas takeover. Although the terms of the agreement were not made public at the time, they were included in a report published this week by the International Crisis Group (ICG), which obtained a copy of the understanding last June.

In addition to a halt in all military actions by both sides, the agreement called on Israel to increase the level of goods entering Gaza by 30 percent over the pre-lull period within 72 hours and to open all border crossings and "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza" within 13 days after the beginning of the cease-fire.

Nevertheless, Israeli officials freely acknowledged in interviews with ICG last June that they had no intention of opening the border crossings fully, even though they anticipated that this would be the source of serious conflict with Hamas.
The Israelis opened the access points only partially, and in late July Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni declared that the border crossings should remain closed until Hamas agreed to the release of Gilad Shalit, an IDF soldier abducted by Hamas in June 2006. The Hamas representative in Lebanon, Usam Hamdan, told the ICG in late December that the flow of goods and fuel into Gaza had been only 15 percent of its basic needs.

Despite Israel's refusal to end the siege, Hamas brought rocket and mortar fire from Gaza to a virtual halt last summer and fall, as revealed by a report by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) in Tel Aviv last month. ITIC is part of the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC), an NGO close to the Israeli intelligence community.
On Nov. 4 – just when the cease-fire was most effective – the IDF carried out an attack against a house in Gaza in which six members of Hamas' military wing were killed, including two commanders, and several more were wounded. The IDF explanation for the operation was that it had received intelligence that a tunnel was being dug near the Israeli security fence for the purpose of abducting Israeli soldiers.

Hamas officials asserted, however, that the tunnel was being dug for defensive purposes, not to capture IDF personnel, according to Pastor, and one IDF official confirmed that fact to him.

After that Israeli attack, the cease-fire completely fell apart, as Hamas began openly firing rockets into Israel, the IDF continued to carry out military operations inside Gaza, and the border crossings were "closed most of the time," according to the ITIC account.
IMO, the strangulation of much needed medical supplies and food
is in itself an act of war, and since Israel did not adhere to this part of the agreement, it effectively violated the "ceasefire".
Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel cease-fire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

The proposal to renew the cease-fire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

here is the list of rockets and mortars launched into Israel in 2008.
List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as you can see, Hamas fired rockets into Israel the day after signing the treaty and continued to do so.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I can't find anywhere where these small rockets, actually killed any Israeli civilians?

does it really matter if someone was killed or not? they are launching rockets blindly into Israel with no regard for civilian life. would you be ok with a rocket hitting your house if no one was killed? i certainly wouldn't. you can't deny that Hamas is targeting civilians. it's a fact.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

They both come from the same ancient heritage of Abraham, so why are the Palestinians excluded from the so-called promise the Jews adhere to?
God promised the descendants of the prophet Abraham the 'Promised Land', why are Palestinians defying the Almighty's prophecy?

never said they were excluded. just pointing out that both side use religion as justification to kill. and not just them, throughout history people twisted religion to kill each other.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I can't find anywhere where these small rockets, actually killed any Israeli civilians?

Does this EXCUSE the fact? I mean, what are you implying here? Are you implying that Israel SHOULD just wait around until one of these rockets DOES kill an innocent Israeli civilian? The logic behind that theory is borderline ridiculous.

If somebody fired a rocket at my house, with or withOUT the intention of killing me or my family, I would almost CERTAINLY bring harm to them swiftly and without remorse.

Seriously, how would the United States react if Venezuela fired ONE rocket into the homeland? Do you think we would wait around for another 99 rockets to be fired at us before we retalliated? I'm pretty confident in the fact that we WOULDN'T.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

They both come from the same ancient heritage of Abraham, so why are the Palestinians excluded from the so-called promise the Jews adhere to?
God promised the descendants of the prophet Abraham the 'Promised Land', why are Palestinians defying the Almighty's prophecy?

I will answer this question for you by simply referencing the Bible and repeating what God has already spoken about the matter, though I'm certain you'll probably disregard the answer, and continue to try and justify a different theory using your own logic, which will ultimately result in more confusion being created over the topic at hand.

The answer is simple:

As you know Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. These two sons came about after a long period of time in which Sarah, Abraham's wife, was unsuccessful in bearing Abraham any children. After Abraham found favor in God's eyes, God made a covenant with him, promising to give him a son through his wife Sarah (who had been barren up to this point), and promising that Abraham's descendants would be a "great nation", and eventually become as numerous as the stars in the sky. Given the fact that Abraham was approximately 100 yrs. old, Sarah LAUGHED at the idea of having children at her age, and instead decided to "help God out" with His promise to give Abraham a son. Rather than wait, and trust in God to deliver on His word, she instead told Abraham to go in to her Egyptian maidservant (Hagar), hoping that she would give Abraham the son that she thought God had planned for them. In any event, she was wrong.

After Sarah found out that Hagar was pregnant, she instantly became jealous of her, and decided to kick her out of their home, forcing Hagar to run away out into the desert. At this point, it would seem that Sarah and Abraham are in quite a mess, and are suffering the consequences of not trusting in God to keep His word. However, God remained true to His promise on TWO fronts. Number 1, God DID eventually give Abraham the son He he was referring to when He originally made His covenant with Abraham (Isaac). And number 2, God DID bless Ishmael (even though Ishmael WASN'T the son that God had planned for Abraham). We can see this in Genesis 21:18, when God finds Hagar in the desert crying, because she has no food or water for her son and she assumes that he is going to die. Instead, God tells Hagar not to fear, but rather to...

"Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."

God says this BECAUSE of the covenant He made with Abraham, promising that He would bless his descendants and make them as numerous as the stars in the sky. But keep in mind, God did NOT have to do this, because Sarah and Abraham had NOT trusted God's promise to give them a son, through Sarah, which God had originally promised them they would have in the first place. However, God DID bless Ishmael, because God is good.

On the otherhand, BECAUSE Abraham and Sarah tried to "help God out" with His promise to deliver them a son, Ishmael was destined to become a thorn in the side of Isaac's descendants (the son that God HAD planned to give Sarah and Abraham). If you think I'm making this up, then I suggest you take a look at Genesis 16:11-12, where God says to Hagar...

"You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

All in all I would have to say, as usual, God's words are right on point. Ishmael's descendants (the modern day Arabs), ARE a great nation, encompassing MUCH of the Asian and African continents, and have grown to be QUITE numerous at that. Most of all, I have NEVER seen a culture of people more radical and ambitious then the Arab, or Muslim nation. They are CERTAINLY wild. And they are CERTAINLY hostile towards their brothers, the Jewish people of Israel.

Moral of the story?

If you trust in God and have faith His promises, you will produce and bear fruit (Isaac). On the otherhand, if you try to "jump the gun", and instead, resort to "helping God out" by doing things yourself, you will produce thorns (Ishmael).

And that's that...

[T1 3VOM]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/wo...?_r=2&emc=eta1

I stopped reading this article after I read this:

"Nowhere in the Arab world is the gap between the street and the government so wide as here in Egypt, which has a peace treaty with Israel and has refused to allow free passage of goods and people through its border with Gaza, a decision that has been attacked by Islamic and Arab leaders and proved deeply troubling to many Egyptians."

That's what I expected the answer to be. Thank you for finding a link to back it up. I've stopped reading this thread as well. When it takes me 45 minutes to read a post and 3 hours to try to respond to every point attempted in that post, it becomes obvious to me that this discussion is bigger than a discussion board can handle.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I have heard that the Nazi affiliations were a false rumor, but that was from only one source, who said that if it was true, it was before the horrors of the truth of the Holocaust were known.

History is history, and fact is fact. The Arabs, under the leadership of Muhammed Amin al-Husayni, revolted against the Jewish people when they began arriving in Palestine. This was for no other reason, other then the fact that they were simply...Jewish. And yes, during the time of WW2, the Arab nations were more or less aligned with the Nazis. There were TWO reasons for this:

Number 1: The Germans intended to arouse a revolution in the "Arab nationalists" residing in the Middle East, who were looking to get out from under the control of the British. This was a German priority, being as the Middle East was under the control of France and Britain since the aftermath of WW1 (the Sykes-Picot agreement), so an Arab revolt in the Middle East would cause more problems for the Allied nations they were at war with.

Number 2: The Arabs hated the Jewish people as much as the Nazis did.


Conclusion:

The Arabs and the Nazis had an alliance in WW2.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I'm still looking into that one. Because if true, it actually is what drove the Jewish Zionist movement immigrate to Palestine in the first place.
Catch 22.

If I'm reading you correctly here, then you've JUST confirmed the point that I've been trying to make the ENTIRE time. The Jewish people were DRIVEN from Europe. They had no other choice. Would YOU stay around in a country that was trying to exterminate you and your entire race? No, you would probably pack up and head on out. That being the case, WHERE were the Jewish people supposed to go? Logic would dictate that they would try to join up with the REST of their race, who was living peacefully in Jerusalem and Palestine, the land that USED to belong to them centuries ago. Whether the land was, is, or never had been theirs, they simply left Europe and arrived in Palestine...that's IT.

They didn't ANNOUNCE the fact that they were taking over Palestine. They didn't SHOW up with uzis and AK47s claiming "jihad" against the Arabs. They simply moved locations due to the HORRIFIC events that were taking place against them in Europe. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with that.

Matter of fact, it was the ARABS (under radical leaders such as al-Husayni) who incited HATRED over the influx of Jewish people into the region. The ARABS were the ones who started attacking Jewish settlements...not the other way around. Sorry.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by T1 3VOM

I've stopped reading this thread as well. When it takes me 45 minutes to read a post and 3 hours to try to respond to every point attempted in that post, it becomes obvious to me that this discussion is bigger than a discussion board can handle.

Sorry about that. That's mine and poboys' fault. He thinks he can get away with these long, extravagant posts condemning Israel and supporting Hamas without anybody around to keep him in "check".

The end result is a whirlwind of ideas and theologies that are enough to confuse a marine biologist. Sorry about that.

[90mustangGT]

Ike, you can't argue with the insane.

The Darwin Awards have been given out. The reason the Isreali's are kicking ass is because Hamas is weak, in fact puny cowards that are getting justice served to them.

I can not understand why the world is condeming Isreal but not Hamas. I can not understand why they are calling for Isreal to cease-fire, but not Palistinians. I can not believe that the UN expects Isreal to not only stop, but fully withdraw, and then give Hamas a full 48hrs before they have to stop firing. WHY WHY WHY, I WANT TO KNOW WHY?

I only know one reason why, and that is because the world wants to appease the Arab world and do it they way they want it done so Hamas can claim victory. Everyone wants to see the underdog and weak survive.

For the sake of God and everything else, let the weak die, they are not strong enough to survive in that part of the world. The world would be a better place with them gone, so let Isreal clean up the scum.

[poboys 94]

It is true it appears this discussion is more difficult to keep up with,
especially when religious dogma is involved, and so many things are involved. Sorry about the long posts.
The bottom line is most Americans have a lopsided view of the situation, usually in Israels favor.
The American print and TV media is mostly slanted in favor of Israel, and has been for years, demonizing the Palestinians, who are the true victims in this situation, whether you want to believe this is up to you.
Most of us have been subjected to the "Israel is good, Palestinians and Arabs are bad" propaganda all our lives, as a result many have developed a racist view of those people.
There doesn't seem to be any moral clarity.
The reality is as Gaza suffers brutal collective punishment of economic strangulation and disproportionate death and destruction, the rest of occupied Palestine continues to undergo a daily routine of humiliation and inhumane treatment that many now compare to the old Apartheid system in South Africa.
As reported by different human rights groups, including many is Israel, the Palestinians are routinely subjected to harsh treatments that make life unbearable for them. Civilians are often subjected to prolonged detention without charges. They are subjected to strip searches at checkpoints, torture in prisons, and random home demolitions that throw families into conditions of instant homelessness. In the meantime, Israel continues to forbid Palestinian civilians the right to return (a deal-breaker of a number of peace plans) while it continues the systematic implantation of “settlers” to “establish new facts on the ground” that would later justify annexation.
Such population transfer by an occupier against the will of the occupied is both illegal and immoral; yet, the state of Israel, driven by an uncontrolled appetite for land-grabbing, insists on the legitimacy of its current policy of ever-expanding.
This and other such provocative and humiliating policies push the Palestinians into a position of utter desperation; Hence the firing of rockets, however ineffective. And their actions in turn creates the impetus that sets the stage for Israel to continue its brutal oppression and bombardment of one of the most impoverished and indeed densely populated geographical areas in the world.
I think if they were to throw a hand full of M-80s, Israel would use this as an excuse to kill more Palestinians.
So, what “moral scrupulousness” is there to be attributed to Israel? Is it because Israel warned civilians? How can one accept reports by the very unrepentant invader who shuns transparency and deliberately denies the international media to cover the war and offer the world objective accounts?
Are you troubled by Israel’s bombings of UN schools used as shelters, hospitals, mosques, etc.? Has your judgment been impaired by emotions or been corroded by hate?
Nothing affirms our humanity more than our capacity to empathize. It is this frame of heart that enables us to feel the agony of the pain experienced by others, and to treat others as we like to be treated.
Something sorely lacking, as is evident by the posts in this thread,
and by the media coverage that today provides only Israeli propaganda as “coverage” of the Israeli war crimes in Gaza.
What's strange is conservatives think the Washington Post, or the New York Times, are the “liberal media” despite the fact that the editorial and commentary pages are controlled by neocons and their sympathizers. For example during the run-up to wars and during wars, the American media have always been propagandists for the government. The only exceptions occurred during the Vietnam war and the Contra-Sandinista conflict in Central America. Karen de Young and some others tried to honestly cover the Contras and Sandinistas and were demonized by “patriots” taken in by the government’s lies.
Conservatives still blame the “liberal” media for losing the Vietnam War, when in fact all the media did were to provide some truthful reports that opened some American eyes.
When the truth cuts against the position of the US government, conservatives see it as “liberal.” I'm not trying to turn this into a right -left thing, both American political parties use the media as it suits them, to convince the public of what it might other wise reject.
When propaganda supports the government’s lies, conservatives see it as “patriotic.” And it keeps getting pounded to a submissive and ill informed public. I would like to believe that many of your negative and racist views concerning these people were forged by this kind of media coverage, but alas I might be wrong.
Empathy doesn't develop in a person out of thin air. It requires a deliberate effort to look within oneself by way of reflection and observation on one’s attitude toward that which matters and that which seem to not matter.
It requires a sense of introspection- the big mirror that all individuals, nations as well as religions, need to put in front of themselves to see the image of their values. But introspection also has a prerequisite named WILLINGNESS. And as we have the capacity to block the entire sun with one or two fingers, so can nations and, indeed, religious communities.
Ironically, as a state founded by people escaping oppression, Israel seems to suffer from moral myopia as it paints itself in the pages of history as a symbol of the oppressed that morphed into an oppressor.

TOP 5 LIES ABOUT ISRAELS ASSAULT ON GAZA-
Lie #1: Israel is only targeting legitimate military sites and is seeking to protect innocent lives. Israel never targets civilians.

The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of real estate in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.

Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization. Hamas has been responsible for firing rockets into Israel. These rockets are extremely inaccurate and thus, even if Hamas intended to hit military targets within Israel, are indiscriminate by nature. When rockets from Gaza kill Israeli civilians, it is a war crime.

Hamas has a military wing. However, it is not entirely a military organization, but a political one. Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge. Others have been targeted for assassination, such as Nizar Rayan, a top Hamas official. To kill Rayan, Israel targeted a residential apartment building. The strike not only killed Rayan but two of his wives and four of his children, along with six others. There is no justification for such an attack under international law. This was a war crime.

Other of Israel’s bombardment with protected status under international law have included a mosque, a prison, police stations, and a university, in addition to residential buildings.

Moreover, Israel has long held Gaza under siege, allowing only the most minimal amounts of humanitarian supplies to enter. Israel is bombing and killing Palestinian civilians. Countless more have been wounded, and cannot receive medical attention. Hospitals running on generators have little or no fuel. Doctors have no proper equipment or medical supplies to treat the injured. These people, too, are the victims of Israeli policies targeted not at Hamas or legitimate military targets, but directly designed to punish the civilian population.

Lie #2: Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks.

Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with. From the beginning, it announced a “special security zone” within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon. In other words, Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals attempting to reach their own land in direct violation of not only the cease-fire but international law.

Despite shooting incidents, including ones resulting in Palestinians getting injured, Hamas still held to the cease-fire from the time it went into effect on June 19 until Israel effectively ended the truce on November 4 by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others.

Israel’s violation of the cease-fire predictably resulted in retaliation from militants in Gaza who fired rockets into Israel in response. The increased barrage of rocket fire at the end of December is being used as justification for the continued Israeli bombardment, but is a direct response by militants to the Israeli attacks.

Israel’s actions, including its violation of the cease-fire, predictably resulted in an escalation of rocket attacks against its own population.

Lie #3: Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.

There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of real estate that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields” in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.

Lie #4: Arab nations have not condemned Israel’s actions because they understand Israel’s justification for its assault.

The populations of those Arab countries are outraged at Israel’s actions and at their own governments for not condemning Israel’s assault and acting to end the violence. Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent their respective Arab populations. The populations of the Arab nations have staged mass protests in opposition to not only Israel’s actions but also the inaction of their own governments and what they view as either complacency or complicity in Israel’s crimes.

Moreover, the refusal of Arab nations to take action to come to the aid of the Palestinians is not because they agree with Israel’s actions, but because they are submissive to the will of the US, which fully supports Israel. Egypt, for instance, which refused to open the border to allow Palestinians wounded in the attacks to get medical treatment in Egyptian hospitals, is heavily dependent upon US aid, and is being widely criticized within the population of the Arab countries for what is viewed as an absolute betrayal of the Gaza Palestinians.

Even Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been regarded as a traitor to his own people for blaming Hamas for the suffering of the people of Gaza. Palestinians are also well aware of Abbas’ past perceived betrayals in conniving with Israel and the US to sideline the democratically elected Hamas government, culminating in a counter-coup by Hamas in which it expelled Fatah (the military wing of Abbas’ Palestine Authority) from the Gaza Strip. While his apparent goal was to weaken Hamas and strengthen his own position, the Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East are so outraged at Abbas that it is unlikely he will be able to govern effectively.

Lie #5: Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted.

Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.

[Reimann]

Poboys is truly the man standing in the rain.

[90mustangGT]

Originally Posted by Reimann

Poboys is truly the man standing in the rain.

And it's a golden shower at that!

[T1 3VOM]

Originally Posted by Ike83

Sorry about that. That's mine and poboys' fault. He thinks he can get away with these long, extravagant posts condemning Israel and supporting Hamas without anybody around to keep him in "check".

The end result is a whirlwind of ideas and theologies that are enough to confuse a marine biologist. Sorry about that.

I'm not complaining at all. If you guys feel like you're getting something out of this, more power to you. Just make sure that you are actually trying to understand each other, and not just making fun of each other.

Somewhere between the two sides is a very small, perfectly defined object called the truth. It'd be nice if someone found it someday.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by Reimann

Poboys is truly the man standing in the rain.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Lie #3: Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.

There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of real estate that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields” in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.

What in the WORLD are you even talking about?

Poboys...you're KILLING me here!

Do you just COMPLETELY disregard anything that is an actual FACT? You're trying to tell me that Israel unmercifully SLAUGHTERED a man and his children, yet you COMPLETELY fail to mention that the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) actually WARNED Nizar Rayan BEFORE they bombed his home. Dude, it's HIS fault that his entire family died with him, NOT ISRAEL'S!

You make mention of Israel's bombing of mosque's, police stations, and residential buildings, yet you seem to CONVENIENTLY overlook the fact that these...MOSQUES...that Israel is bombing (like the one in Jabaliya), are housing Qassam and Grad rockets and other weapons.

Israel clamps down on West Bank as Gaza raids continue | theage.com.au

You seem to CONVENIENTLY forget, that these...POLICE STATIONS...that Israel is bombing, are controlled by Hamas...not some innocent civilian bystanders.

Human Rights Watch noted that many of Israel's airstrikes, especially during the first day, targeted police stations as well as security and militia installations controlled by Hamas.

What is your DEAL? You act as if YOU'RE the only one who has this secret source of information that nobody else has, and as if EVERYBODY else in the country is blinded by this...GREAT big conspiracy...and NOBODY is able to see the REAL truth.

The REAL truth is...is that YOU claim nobody knows what THEY'RE talking about, but yet you turn RIGHT around, and proceed to make STATEMENT after STATEMENT, which I (after doing the research on my own) come to find out are COMPLETELY FALSE IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD!

It's NOT true that Hamas isn't using people for human shields! Matter of FACT...

HERE'S a video of Hamas CALLING FOR A HUMAN SHIELD OF CHILDREN TO
PREVENT AN ISRAELI BOMBING!

YouTube - Human Shields - Hamas in action

Would you like ANOTHER one?

YouTube - Hamas admits it uses human shields

STILL not satisified? Try THIS one...

YouTube - Hamas using children as human shield

And HERE'S an article which not only CONFIRMS that Rayan was warned BEFORE the bombings on his home (which gave Rayan PLENTY of time to evacuate his family), but it ALSO mentions the fact that Rayan actually sent one of his SON'S on a suicide mission in 2001, which KILLED two Israelis in Gaza!

Bodies of Hamas leader's children paraded as group promises 'painful' revenge for their deaths | Mail Online

It APPEARS the man wasn't TOO concerned with the lives of his children poboys, so why are you trying to make this guy out to be some kind of a martyr? He was a TERRIBLE man who couldn't have given two flying fishsticks about the lives of his wives and children. And here you are trying to put the blame of his kids' murders on Israel, even after they WARN him of the upcoming attacks?

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to spin a story like this. And at this point, I'm not going to argue with a person who can't seem to figure out who the real victim is when a man sends his OWN son on a suicide mission! You've got to be KIDDING me!

I'm done with this conversation. Peace!

[Strype]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

yet, the state of Israel, driven by an uncontrolled appetite for land-grabbing, insists on the legitimacy of its current policy of ever-expanding.

Wiki:
---The Israeli-occupied territories are the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. They are areas Israel captured from Jordan, and Syria during the Six-Day War.

Following Israel's capture of these territories, settlements consisting of Israeli citizens were established within each of them. Israel has applied civilian law to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, incorporating them into its territory and offering their inhabitants Israeli citizenship.

Most negotiations relating to the territories have been on the basis of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which calls on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories in return for normalization of relations with Arab states, a principle known as "Land for peace".---

Originally Posted by poboys 94

TOP 5 LIES ABOUT ISRAELS ASSAULT ON GAZA-
Lie #1: Israel is only targeting legitimate military sites and is seeking to protect innocent lives. Israel never targets civilians.

Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization.

Hamas has a military wing. However, it is not entirely a military organization, but a political one. Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people.

Wiki

--Notorious for its suicide attacks and other attacks[2] on Israeli civilians and security forces, Hamas also runs extensive social programs[3] and has gained popularity in Palestinian society --

--Hamas' charter calls for the recapturing of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now named Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious[6] or antisemitic.[7] However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements[8] reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.--


Another way to put it is this:

If "innocent" people have funded, elected and given power to a known TERRORIST ORGANIZATION then they aren't so innocent are they?

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Lie #2: Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks.

Israel’s actions, including its violation of the cease-fire, predictably resulted in an escalation of rocket attacks against its own population.

I suppose that Iraq thumbing it's nose at the UN 17 times, or the invasion of Kuwait, or it's dictator's use of mustard gas against his own people had nothing to do with big bad America going into Iraq and "Occupying" that land either

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Lie #3: Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.

There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of real estate that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields”

I'll never understand that line of thinking. As if everyone is "picking on" the poor suicide bombers. Those elected officials are bomb toting psychopaths who will kill everyone they can to force the Islamic religion upon everyone.

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Lie #4: Arab nations have not condemned Israel’s actions because they understand Israel’s justification for its assault.

Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent their respective Arab populations.

Moreover, the refusal of Arab nations to take action to come to the aid of the Palestinians is not because they agree with Israel’s actions, but because they are submissive to the will of the US,

So THAT'S why I was paying $4.20 a gallon for gas!!!!!!

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Lie #5: Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted.

Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.

wiki

--On 23 January 2008, after months of preparation during which the steel reinforcement of the border barrier was weakened,[48] Hamas destroyed several parts of the wall dividing Gaza and Egypt in the town of Rafah. Hundreds of thousands of Gazans crossed the border into Egypt seeking food and supplies. Due to the crisis, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ordered his troops to allow the Palestinians in but to verify that they did not bring weapons back across the border.[49] Egypt arrested and later released several armed Hamas militants in the Sinai who presumably wanted to infiltrate into Israel--

[Strype]

Poboys, you try and try to change the subject and ignore facts.

Fact: HAMAS IS A TERRORIST GROUP. As defined in their doctrine. As shown by their deeds and works. What other "Political Group" that was "Democratically Elected" has it's own military? I might can think of a few throughout history if you can't.

Fact: In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan.

Fact: HAMAS was founded on the principal that Israel must be destroyed and every Jew must either be converted to Islam or die.



I do not see the problem here. I do not see your opinions as very well founded. I DO see a lot of nonsense without any crumb of historic reality to back it up.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by T1 3VOM

I'm not complaining at all. If you guys feel like you're getting something out of this, more power to you. Just make sure that you are actually trying to understand each other, and not just making fun of each other.

Somewhere between the two sides is a very small, perfectly defined object called the truth. It'd be nice if someone found it someday.

I agree. Al I'm trying to say is it seems that in order to find out the truth about things that are happening in this most recent escalation of violence, we really should look at all the other news sources rather then count on the CNNs, MSNBCs, and FOX news outlets. Just because they say (usually what Israel wants them to) doesn't make it totally true. And like wise the propaganda
machine from the other side can be just as biased, and exaggerate, or eliminate the total story. Trying to get to the bottom of this issue
is becoming very hard to do, hence in our search we go back to the ancient history and religious origins of the conflict, and we end up with the 3hour replies to a post etc.
I recently viewed and taped some discussion about the topic at hand
from C-SPAN 3. I would like to share it with who ever is interested, and see where that goes.
The first is The Palestine Center Symposium on the 1967 "Six Days War"
"The Palestine Center offers another look at the 1967 "Six-Day War." Participants include Amb. Afif Safieh, Head of the PLO Mission in Washington, D.C., and Dr. William Quandt, who was involved in the Camp David Accords. This symposium considers Israel's 40 year occupation of captured territory."
C-SPAN Video Player - The Palestine Center Symposium on the 1967 "Six Days War"
The 2nd is from 2006-Palestine Center Discussion on the Situation in Gaza
"Mohammed Omer, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, Correspondent talks about daily life in the Gaza Strip. He shows photographs and video during his presentation.
C-SPAN Video Player - Palestine Center Discussion on the Situation in Gaza

In the first presentation, one speaker Arif Safieh, caught my attention when he spoke of his idea for peace for both sides.
He states his views of a 2 state or 1 state solution. He believes in
avoiding confrontations with the Israeli military army
And he also states that Israeli leaders Ben Gorien in particular, used to say
"We Israelis need to adopt a strategy to provoke the Palestinians, into provoking us, so we can retaliate and expand"

[jikelly]

Dang this is a really interesting discussion. I've got to catch up on more of it. Y'all type too much.

Anyway, this sounds a lot like the argument made by the British when they claimed part of America for themselves and started displacing the native America peoples.

"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders."

[jikelly]

This article in Time asks if Israel can survive its attacks on Gaza and the Palestinians. Basically the author questions whether their current campaign can secure Israels future considering the facts that their actions are turning more Arab nations against them, and that Jews can not match the Palestinian's birthrate.

Israel's Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, has promised a "war to the bitter end." But after 60 years of struggle to defend their existence against foreign threats and enemies within, many Israelis may be wondering, Where does that end lie? The threat posed by Hamas is only the most immediate of the many interlocking challenges facing Israel, some of which cast dark shadows over the long-term viability of a democratic Jewish state. The offensive in Gaza may degrade Hamas' ability to menace southern Israel with rocket fire, but, as with Israel's 2006 war against Hizballah, the application of force won't extinguish the militants' ideological fervor. The anti-Israeli anger swelling in the region has made it more difficult for Arab governments to join Israel in its efforts to deal with Iran, the patron of both Hamas and Hizballah and a state whose leaders have sworn to eliminate Israel and appear determined to acquire nuclear weapons.

Can Israel Survive Its Assault on Gaza? - TIME