[Strype]

Originally Posted by jikelly

Dang this is a really interesting discussion. I've got to catch up on more of it. Y'all type too much.

Anyway, this sounds a lot like the argument made by the British when they claimed part of America for themselves and started displacing the native America peoples.

Damn whitey!!!

[Reimann]

Originally Posted by jikelly

Anyway, this sounds a lot like the argument made by the British when they claimed part of America for themselves and started displacing the native America peoples.

Actually it is more like when America declared itself free from British rule. Or were you referring when the Roman's conquered it in the 2nd century and forced the Jews out?

[poboys 94]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Strype

Wiki:
---The Israeli-occupied territories are the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. They are areas Israel captured from Jordan, and Syria during the Six-Day War.

Following Israel's capture of these territories, settlements consisting of Israeli citizens were established within each of them. Israel has applied civilian law to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, incorporating them into its territory and offering their inhabitants Israeli citizenship.

Most negotiations relating to the territories have been on the basis of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which calls on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories in return for normalization of relations with Arab states, a principle known as "Land for peace".---

That's right Israel is defying that UN resolution along with others pertaining to the illegal occupation. I would rule out using Wikipedia as a trustful or accurate source on this subject. This just in.
"What is the first place you turn to for finding information on the Internet? Encarta? Britannica? No! its Wikipedia!!!
And now, Wikipedia is under threat by CAMERA, the pro-israel organization, who wants to destroy any credibility Wikipedia has by distorting history on Palestine. They have a very detailed plan, which has been exposed, thanks to TheEI
A pro-Israel pressure group is orchestrating a secret, long-term campaign to infiltrate the popular online encyclopedia Wikipedia to rewrite Palestinian history, pass off crude propaganda as fact, and take over Wikipedia administrative structures to ensure these changes go either undetected or unchallenged.

Wikipedia Under Attack by Pro-Israel Groups Distorting Palestinian History The Internet Guy
Also relating to the SIX-DAY WAR-

Between February 1947 and March 1948, a final plan for ethnic cleansing was prepared.

The Zionist leadership defined 80 percent of Palestine (Israel today without the West Bank) as the space for the future state.

This was an area in which one million Palestinians lived next to 600,000 Jews.

The idea was to uproot as many Palestinians as possible. From March 1948 until the end of that year the plan was implemented despite the attempt by some Arab states to oppose it, which failed. Some 750,000 Palestinians were expelled, 531 villages were destroyed and 11 urban neighbourhoods demolished.

Half of Palestine's population was uprooted and half of its villages destroyed. The state of Israel was established in over 80 percent of Palestine, turning Palestinian villages into Jewish settlements and recreation parks, but allowing a small number of Palestinian to remain citizens in it.

The June 1967 war allowed Israel to take the remaining 20 percent of Palestine.

This seizure defeated in a way the ethnic ideology of the Zionist movement. Israel encompassed 100 percent of Palestine, but the state incorporated a large number of Palestinians, the people who Zionists made such an effort to expel in 1948.

The fact that Israel was let off easily in 1948, and not condemned for the ethnic cleansing it committed, encouraged it to ethnically cleanse a further 300,000 Palestinians from the West Bank and the Gaza strip.

Wiki

--Notorious for its suicide attacks and other attacks[2] on Israeli civilians and security forces, Hamas also runs extensive social programs[3] and has gained popularity in Palestinian society --

--Hamas' charter calls for the recapturing of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now named Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious[6] or antisemitic.[7] However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements[8] reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.--


Another way to put it is this:

If "innocent" people have funded, elected and given power to a known TERRORIST ORGANIZATION then they aren't so innocent are they?

Again, one mans terrorist is another mans patriot. Israel has planned and implemented the ethnic cleansing of these people, and by their actions for over 60 yrs have tried to displace or kill the Palestinian population. Isn't it logical to assume that threats against Israel by Hamas are a direct result of what has been done to their people? In fact, the whole damn conflict is a result of the Zionist attempt to displace, and kill the indigenous
population.

I suppose that Iraq thumbing it's nose at the UN 17 times, or the invasion of Kuwait, or it's dictator's use of mustard gas against his own people had nothing to do with big bad America going into Iraq and "Occupying" that land either

Are you not aware of the fact that Israel is in violation of 68 UN resolutions?

Israel in violation of 68 UN Resolutions
And have you not heard of the massacres of the Palestinian refugee camps in the 80s
in Lebanon? The state of Israel is NOT as innocent as some are led to believe. And remember Israel pushed our lawmakers hard to go and fight in Iraq for them.

I'll never understand that line of thinking. As if everyone is "picking on" the poor suicide bombers. Those elected officials are bomb toting psychopaths who will kill everyone they can to force the Islamic religion upon everyone.

And the Israelis are saints? They are reaping what they have sown.

So THAT'S why I was paying $4.20 a gallon for gas!!!!!!

No we were paying 4.20 for gasoline because of the damned speculative markets, and some the financial companies that brought that about have gone bankrupt. It was on 60 minutes this past weekend.


Look if you want to learn something about Israel and the Palestinian conflict, then you can look at some video and read about Ilan Pape.

"Prominent Israeli academic and author Ilan Pape is openly critical of Israel. In his latest article, he called Israel's policies in the West Bank "ethnic cleansing" and felt safe to call their actions in Gaza "measured genocide".

Let us not forget that Ilan Pape is an Israeli and for him to accuse his own homeland of these things must be very hard indeed, and without a strong basis, I'm sure he would reduce the terms to something much weaker. Secondly, Ilan Pape has extensive experience of the conflict. He is a senior lecturer at the University of Haifa Department of political Science and Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies in Haifa.

A Powerful Voice: An Interview with Ilan Pape.

YouTube - The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Dr. Ilan Pappe - Part 1

YouTube - George Galloway & Ilan Pappe 1

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by 90mustangGT

And it's a golden shower at that!

You know what you ignorant f- I would rather stand in a rain storm of piss then eat the s#it you are being spoon fed.
I took Reimanns cartoon in good humor I can take a joke, but you start talking about golden showers
and crap, you're stepping over the line. Other then the fact you started this thread, you haven't contributed anything of substance. But judging by your knowledge of deviate sexual gratification, it shows us where your attention has been.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Ike83

What in the WORLD are you even talking about?

Poboys...you're KILLING me here!

Do you just COMPLETELY disregard anything that is an actual FACT? You're trying to tell me that Israel unmercifully SLAUGHTERED a man and his children, yet you COMPLETELY fail to mention that the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) actually WARNED Nizar Rayan BEFORE they bombed his home. Dude, it's HIS fault that his entire family died with him, NOT ISRAEL'S!

You make mention of Israel's bombing of mosque's, police stations, and residential buildings, yet you seem to CONVENIENTLY overlook the fact that these...MOSQUES...that Israel is bombing (like the one in Jabaliya), are housing Qassam and Grad rockets and other weapons.

Israel clamps down on West Bank as Gaza raids continue | theage.com.au

You seem to CONVENIENTLY forget, that these...POLICE STATIONS...that Israel is bombing, are controlled by Hamas...not some innocent civilian bystanders.

Human Rights Watch noted that many of Israel's airstrikes, especially during the first day, targeted police stations as well as security and militia installations controlled by Hamas.

What is your DEAL? You act as if YOU'RE the only one who has this secret source of information that nobody else has, and as if EVERYBODY else in the country is blinded by this...GREAT big conspiracy...and NOBODY is able to see the REAL truth.

The REAL truth is...is that YOU claim nobody knows what THEY'RE talking about, but yet you turn RIGHT around, and proceed to make STATEMENT after STATEMENT, which I (after doing the research on my own) come to find out are COMPLETELY FALSE IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD!

It's NOT true that Hamas isn't using people for human shields! Matter of FACT...

HERE'S a video of Hamas CALLING FOR A HUMAN SHIELD OF CHILDREN TO
PREVENT AN ISRAELI BOMBING!

YouTube - Human Shields - Hamas in action

Would you like ANOTHER one?

YouTube - Hamas admits it uses human shields

STILL not satisified? Try THIS one...

YouTube - Hamas using children as human shield

And HERE'S an article which not only CONFIRMS that Rayan was warned BEFORE the bombings on his home (which gave Rayan PLENTY of time to evacuate his family), but it ALSO mentions the fact that Rayan actually sent one of his SON'S on a suicide mission in 2001, which KILLED two Israelis in Gaza!

Bodies of Hamas leader's children paraded as group promises 'painful' revenge for their deaths | Mail Online

It APPEARS the man wasn't TOO concerned with the lives of his children poboys, so why are you trying to make this guy out to be some kind of a martyr? He was a TERRIBLE man who couldn't have given two flying fishsticks about the lives of his wives and children. And here you are trying to put the blame of his kids' murders on Israel, even after they WARN him of the upcoming attacks?

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to spin a story like this. And at this point, I'm not going to argue with a person who can't seem to figure out who the real victim is when a man sends his OWN son on a suicide mission! You've got to be KIDDING me!

I'm done with this conversation. Peace!

Balatah R.C. - مخيّم بلاطه : Kids Used as Human Shields in Balata Refugee Camp-
YouTube - Balata Camp (Nablus): Kids Used as Human Shields

YouTube - Free Palestine: Israeli's use of Palestinian human shields

Here is another story implicating Israel of using Palestinian civilians
as human shields from the Israeli newspaper HAARETZ.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...bContrassID=1&
sbSubContrassID=0

And yet another-
LiveLeak.com - Israel under fire for human shield claim

It's no wonder that Israel is keeping journalist out of most of the conflict.
RIA Novosti - World - Israel imposes media blackout in Gaza
No Food, No Fuel Supplies, No Journalists Allowed to Besieged Gaza, Israeli Occupation Government Decides

[Uncle Meat]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

I find your reference to the incident in the article above to the way Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields an apples to oranges comparison and is comical at best.

U.M.

[Ike83]

Originally Posted by poboys 94

Balatah R.C. - مخيّم بلاطه : Kids Used as Human Shields in Balata Refugee Camp-
YouTube - Balata Camp (Nablus): Kids Used as Human Shields

YouTube - Free Palestine: Israeli's use of Palestinian human shields

Here is another story implicating Israel of using Palestinian civilians
as human shields from the Israeli newspaper HAARETZ.

'Human shield' dies as Hamas man is killed by troops - Haaretz - Israel News
sbSubContrassID=0

And yet another-
LiveLeak.com - Israel under fire for human shield claim

It's no wonder that Israel is keeping journalist out of most of the conflict.
RIA Novosti - World - Israel imposes media blackout in Gaza
No Food, No Fuel Supplies, No Journalists Allowed to Besieged Gaza, Israeli Occupation Government Decides

See, THIS is why I'm done with this converation. Poboys, you made the statement that the there is NO evidence of Hamas using children as human shields. THAT was false statement.

We weren't talking about Israel, we were talking about HAMAS! I find it interesting that as soon as I point out the fact that your statement is historically INCORRECT...you change the subject. If that's how we're going to debate, then the debate will never get us anywhere.

I've already showed you that it was the Arabs who first attacked the Jews in the 1920s, and it was the ARABS who were aligned with the Nazis in WW2. I'm not saying that Israel is a perfect nation, led by perfect people, who have NEVER made any mistakes over the course of their history.

All I'm saying, is that Israel is NOT the aggressor in the Middle East, and Israel is NOT the country who fired 100 rockets into their enemies' homeland during the cease-fire. The land the Palestinians live in, does NOT originally belong to the them, which is one of the arguments that you've made several times. In fact, if anything, it belonged to Romans before that, Israel before THAT, and the Canaanites even further back in time.

You've also claimed that the Old Testament is the Torah, implying that the New Testament compleletely erases the Old, and have even twisted simple stories in the Bible (like the one about John the Baptist talking to the Pharisees about the need for baptism) into having a completely different meaning. Your argument, though very articulate, is not only FALSE historically (meaning you make claims that are later revealed to be untrue...such as the claim that Hamas isn't using people as human shields), but also freakishly disturbing in the sense that a person has devoted so much time and energy defending people who are actually sending their OWN CHILDREN ON SUICIDE BOMBING MISSIONS!

I can not partake in this conversation with you any longer. Sorry.

[jikelly]

Originally Posted by Reimann

Actually it is more like when America declared itself free from British rule. Or were you referring when the Roman's conquered it in the 2nd century and forced the Jews out?

Huh?

This is what I was talking about.

When Ben-Gurion said the following...

"We do not recognize the right of the [Palestinian] Arabs to rule the country, since Palestine is still undeveloped and awaits its builders."

That reminded me of this...

In the early 1630s John Winthrop, one of the leaders of the early British migrants to the new world, wrote a number of papers designed to convince British citizens to undertake the journey to New England. One of his papers, “Reasons to be considered for justifying the undertakers of the intended Plantation in New England, and for encouraging such whose hearts God shall move to join with them in it,” answers a number of diverse objections to the colonization of the new world. In this brief essay I will focus on Winthrop’s answer to the first of the objections he discussed.

Objection 1: “We have no warrant to enter upon that land, which has been so long possessed by others.”

Answer: “That which lies common and hath never been replenished or subdued, is free to any that possess and improve it: For God hath given to the sons of men a double right to the earth; there is a natural right, and a civil right. The First right was natural when all men held the earth in common every man sowing and feeding where he pleased: then as men and their cattle increased, they appropriated certain parcels of ground by inclosing and peculiar manuerance, and this in that time got them a civil right…”(p311)

Winthrop begins his argument by stating that anything, land in particular, that has not be worked or cultivated is free to anyone who will claim ownership of it and put it to good use. He supports this statement by turning to divine law, and shares with us God’s design for the ownership of land, stating that God gave man a double right to the earth.

The first of these two he tells us is a natural life and any man who lives in an area may take what he needs to support himself. The second right is only given to men who work, or cultivate the land making it fit to grow crops, or support livestock. In particular Winthrop was very careful in his word selection and, in making this point, he uses the words appropriated and enclosing. Is he saying that once a man has acquired a partition of land, he must enclose it or mark its boundary in order to complete the necessary requirements to earn the second right to the land? Winthrop goes on in his paper to give us a biblical example that supports his previous statements and the idea that a man can claim no land as his own unless he has labored for it.

Winthrop, Robert C. "Reasons to be considered for justifying the undertakers of the intended Plantation in New England, and for encouraging such whose hearts God shall move to join with them in it." Life and letters of John Winthrop 1 (1869): 308-319.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Ike83

See, THIS is why I'm done with this converation. Poboys, you made the statement that the there is NO evidence of Hamas using children as human shields. THAT was false statement.
We weren't talking about Israel, we were talking about HAMAS! I find it interesting that as soon as I point out the fact that your statement is historically INCORRECT...you change the subject. If that's how we're going to debate, then the debate will never get us anywhere.

As long as this discussion causes us to look at the situation with an open mind, then it is a successful one IMO.

I've already showed you that it was the Arabs who first attacked the Jews in the 1920s, and it was the ARABS who were aligned with the Nazis in WW2. I'm not saying that Israel is a perfect nation, led by perfect people, who have NEVER made any mistakes over the course of their history.

"The question of Palestine was brought before the United Nations shortly after the end of the Second World War.

The origins of the Palestine problem as an international issue, however, lie in events occurring towards the end of the First World War. These events led to a League of Nations decision to place Palestine under the administration of Great Britain as the Mandatory Power under the Mandates System adopted by the League. In principle, the Mandate was meant to be in the nature of a transitory phase until Palestine attained the status of a fully independent nation, a status provisionally recognized in the League's Covenant, but in fact the Mandate's historical evolution did not result in the emergence of Palestine as an independent nation.

The decision on the Mandate did not take into account the wishes of the people of Palestine, despite the Covenant's requirements that "the wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory". This assumed special significance because, almost five years before receiving the mandate from the League of Nations, the British Government had given commitments to the Zionist Organization regarding the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, for which Zionist leaders had pressed a claim of "historical connection" since their ancestors had lived in Palestine two thousand years earlier before dispersing in the "Diaspora".
The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1988 - CEIRPP, DPR study, part I: 1917-1947 - DPR publication (30 June 1990)

All I'm saying, is that Israel is NOT the aggressor in the Middle East, and Israel is NOT the country who fired 100 rockets into their enemies' homeland during the cease-fire. The land the Palestinians live in, does NOT originally belong to the them, which is one of the arguments that you've made several times. In fact, if anything, it belonged to Romans before that, Israel before THAT, and the Canaanites even further back in time.

Israel hadn't even abided by the terms of the ceasefire, they continued to restrict much needed humanitarian imports.
I can't believe you still refuse to acknowledge Israel as an agressor and the Protocols of Zion's plan for Palestine
Maybe you could visit this site, it is the most informative I have found so far and could explain many questions you ask.
United Nations: The Origins And Evolution Of The Palestine Problem, 1917-1947
Go to the FAQ by Zionist, and Palestinians.

... but also freakishly disturbing in the sense that a person has devoted so much time and energy defending people who are actually sending their OWN CHILDREN ON SUICIDE BOMBING MISSIONS!

If this remark were written the other way around to describe Jewish or Israeli parents, it would be one of the most anti-Semitic statements ever. Knowingly, or unknowingly, such statements attempt to demonize the Palestinian people, to make them a legitimate target, very much like animal hunting.
For the moment, let's assume that this racist statement is true, and Palestinian parents send their boys to demonstrate and throw stones at the Israeli Occupation Force (IOF): Is that a good reason to shoot unarmed Palestinian kids?
Let's ask the question the other way around, and assume that Israeli or Jewish kids demonstrated against British or Nazi occupation (which actually happened during WWII in Warsaw and Tel Aviv prior to the 1948 war): Is that a good reason to kill unarmed Jewish kids?
It's amusing that the apartheid regime in South Africa used such racist statements to justify the high rate of causalities among African school boys, especially during the famous African student uprisings in the mid 70s and 80s. Instead of opening criminal investigations to explain why kids are being shot at such a high rate (as often done in democratic societies), most Israelis and Zionists point their fingers toward the dead victims and say: "It's your fault; it's your parents fault". Instead of questioning the soldiers who pull the trigger, the Israelis are questioning the dead Palestinian boys, or their families.
" As a Palestinian, I would like to inform many misinformed Israelis that Palestinians love their kids as much as Israeli Jews love their kids, and many do their best to keep their kids out of harms way. Based on personal experience, my parents used to use their best efforts to keep me from of demonstrating against the IOF. Continually, my parents used to inspect my clothes for the smell of burned tires, inspect my hands for stone residue, and to personally pick me up from school just to make sure I didn't demonstrate against the IOF.
I used to go out of my way to participate in resisting and organizing activities against the Israeli Occupation, which was done without my parents' prior consent. Yes, it was done by a teenage boy who hated the Israeli Occupation so much; I was a young boy who thought that he would live forever. My story is similar to Faris Odeh's story.

Soon after this photo was taken, my hero was killed (not far from where that picture was taken) because he threw stones at Israeli Occupation soldiers. It should be noted that Faris' parents went out of their way to keep their kids from demonstrating against the Israeli occupation. It's very sad that Faris was murdered, and his murderer is getting a free hand to perpetrate similar war crimes against other stone-throwing Palestinian boys. To give the reader a first hand eyewitness account of such encounters with the Israeli army, Ha'aretz Daily (a major Israeli newspapers) has published an article describing how Israeli soldiers fired live bullets on unarmed Palestinian kids.
Envoys say they saw IDF fire at children By Ha'aretz Daily
By Amira Hass

A group of Western diplomats traveling from Jerusalem to Ramallah claim they saw Israeli troops near Jerusalem firing live ammunition at a group of children throwing stones, even though the children were too far to pose a risk to the soldiers.

The diplomats say that shots were fired even though a long line of civilian cars were traveling past the children at the time. They also think that one of the children was injured, because shortly after the shooting, the group of children gathered around one youngster. Sources in Qalandia, however, say that they have no reports of anyone being injured that day.
The diplomatic convoy was slowed near Qalandia refugee camp by an IDF roadblock set up a couple of hundred meters from the entrance to the camp. One of the diplomats told Ha'aretz that the children hid behind garbage containers and threw stones at an IDF lookout, at the edge of the nearby Atarot airfield. He says the soldiers were well protected in their high post, but in any case one of the soldiers shot at the children. The diplomats believe that live fire was used.
The diplomat, says that he saw a second soldier in the observation tower clapping and raising his hands as if in victory after his colleague fired at the children.

I can not partake in this conversation with you any longer. Sorry. :shrug

You post something, I look it up and find counter statements and
reason for doubting the official Israeli line, and vice versa.
You stubbornly refuse to conceive the possibility that Israel is WRONG. In my case I admit that this is an ongoing learning endeavor about the situation, I sympathize with the lose of life on both sides, I'm just trying to get through the and take everything in from what we discuss, and by the trading of links and looking things up etc.. There is no reason to get upset about it, as long as we keep everything cool, and be respectful to everyone while we search and discover new things. Sometimes it's the stubborn refusal to do this that keeps problems and conflicts like the one being discussed, from being resolved
Palestine Remembered, al-Nakba 1948-*פלשתינה-فلسطين في الذاكرة

[poboys 94]

For who ever may be interested, a few more videos with Ilan Pape, and related discussion where he describes the difference between Judaism and Zionism. I am amazed at the vast information that is out there. It really isn't as simple as what we have been led to believe.
YouTube - Palestine History - Alan Hart with Ilan Pappe (part1)
The Palestinians saw the Balfour Declaration as a European power deciding their fate, in disregard of their presence and wishes. In the 1920s as land was being stripped away from local residents, the first clashes began. In 1920-1931 even more Jewish settlers came. With Hitlers vicious persecution of Jews, the population doubled in 5 yrs. As the efforts of the Europeans to wash away their guilt, efforts increased to appease the Zionist agenda and create a Jewish homeland, even though the Palestinians were not the ones who persecuted them, the Palestinians were the ones who paid the price. The problem was transferred to the UN, and they unfairly split the land favoring the Jews despite them being the minority population, and owning less then 8% of the area. So they were given most of the land which happened to be the most fertile. So the Zionist took advantage and immediately began occupying major Palestinian cities and towns. There was a mass bumrush of peoples houses, and most fled for their lives. There was a systematic expulsion of Palestinians, and an ethnic cleansing operation taking place. The most infamous campaign at the time was the massacre
Dayr Yasin, where over 100 men, women and children were systematically murdered. One elderly women described the take over of her house, when the Israelis came they beat her father,
and she gave them money to stop, the Israeli solider, took the money, and as the man was on his knees, begging for his life, he shot him 5 times in the back of his head in front of his family.
For those of you you insist that Israel was not an aggressor, you either don't know, or refuse to admit the truth. The Arab countries finally tried to intervene after 300,000 Palestinans were forced to flee. Arab soldiers were outnumbered 68,000 to 90,000, and Israel
had a vast military superiority. So much for the "miracle" of it's creation I think the miracle was that the world stood by
and allowed this genocide to happen. So the Israeli army took over the part of land that was designated for the Palestinians. Now the new state of Israel encompassed 78% of the total land designated for Palestine! The West Bank was controlled by Jordan, and Gaza
was controlled by Egypt. A truce was reached but now there were 700,000 refugees living in deplorable camps, some within eye sight of the homes their families lived in for generations. I guess I would have developed a hatred for Zionist also. Of 500 Palestinian villages
400 were destroyed. This was done in an effort to discourage any future hope the people might have of returning someday. The effort to prevent them from returning, were not approved by the UN,and Israel ignores this. A Palestinian who lost their land in 1948 can't even come back for a visit, where as a Jew who never stepped foot
over there ( IE. Khazars) can go there and be an Israeli citizen.

YouTube - Historical Myths in Israel/Palestine (Occupation 101 Clip)
YouTube - Occupation 101 - the root of the conflict

"Our media portrays Mideast violence as though it's an inherent part of the culture and region, implying that the Israeli, Palestinian conflict is an ancient problem, with little hope of solution.
These mis-perceptions come from the fact that we are only hearing a fraction of the story. This video will show you images and testimony, largely hidden from mainstream America"-
PART 1
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 1
PART 2
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 2
PART 3
YouTube - Occupation 101 part 3
PART 4
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 4
PART 5
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 5
PART 6
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 6
PART 7
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 7
PART 8
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 8
PART 9
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 9
PART 10
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 10
PART 11
YouTube - Occupation 101 Part 11

CHRISTIAN PRESENSE IN PALESTINE-
YouTube - Christian presence in Palestine (Occupation 101 Movie Clip)
The only "miracle" I see, as some refer to this situation, is the level of ignorance we have had about this for so long. I think for now I have been putting enough into this thread, it is at times exhausting
and heartbreaking. It is also discouraging to think that there is so much racism here. Maybe it is not intended, maybe it is because we have been conditioned to think this way, I don't know for sure. I try to put myself in these peoples shoes when I think about it. I find myself being more grateful for the blessings
I enjoy that I used to take for granted. I am glad I have not been dehumanized by the world, and I still have the ability to have compassion, and not become desensitized.

[jikelly]

This is a really good discussion. What I gather from it is that both sides are doing stupid crap that must stop if the ever want peace and prosperity.

Posted via Mobile Device

[Ike83]

Poboys, it's not the "debating" that drives me crazy, I love a good debate...OBVIOUSLY.

It's when you post statements that don't even make any sense, or are completely untrue. You just told everybody in the room that there is NO evidence supporting the claim that Hamas is using people as "human shields." This can't be FURTHER from the truth, and it's not the only time you've done it. I like you. I think you're good dude, I guess?

But you can't expect anybody to have a decent conversation with you, if you're going to completely blur the line between FACT...and FICTION. If you HONESTLY believe for a second, that Hamas isn't using people for human shields, then it's OBVIOUS what the problem is here...YOU'RE LIVING IN A DIFFERENT WORLD ALTOGETHER!

Like I said, I don't mind having a logical debate, but the debate would have to be just that...LOGICAL!

Otherwise, I'm arguing with someone who's standing in the rain and asking ME to define the term "wet".

...and I don't have time for that. My time is too valuable.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Ike83

Poboys, it's not the "debating" that drives me crazy, I love a good debate...OBVIOUSLY.

It's when you post statements that don't even make any sense, or are completely untrue. You just told everybody in the room that there is NO evidence supporting the claim that Hamas is using people as "human shields." This can't be FURTHER from the truth, and it's not the only time you've done it. I like you. I think you're good dude, I guess?

But you can't expect anybody to have a decent conversation with you, if you're going to completely blur the line between FACT...and FICTION. If you HONESTLY believe for a second, that Hamas isn't using people for human shields, then it's OBVIOUS what the problem is here...YOU'RE LIVING IN A DIFFERENT WORLD ALTOGETHER!

You're hung up on the human shield issue.You are
postering that I am of the position that Hamas NEVER used citizens in that way, the quote I posted was in reference to the RECENT bombing in Gaza. I have no doubt that the citizens were inhumanely
used in this way before. As I have posted, there are several incidents of Israel doing the same thing and the international community called them out on it, however you seem to ignore that
without a comment. Truth be told, there is so much I have been reading about this lately, it's hard to keep up, so don't imply that I am deliberately posting lies or deliberately "blurring the lines between fact and fiction" or "living in another world" the same could be said about you. I am trying to read between the lines
and clear them up as best I can.

...and I don't have time for that. My time is too valuable.

Hey you're free to go, besides you can spend some time watching some of the vids in my last post
and explore the web site I included, which will answer and rebuttal some of the common misconceptions you have about the conflict and it's origins. Or do you only have time to view things that are along the lines of what you have been told? Fact is, if you aren't willing to take an objective view and insist on standing firm that Israel is a "miracle" and murder and ethnic cleansing is what God wants Christians do condone, then you have a serious problem IMO and
the time you waste here can be better spent searching your soul,
and your conscience, as well as the facts. I have tried my best in good faith to relay what I find, and all you do is badger me on small inconsistencies, or take things out of context.
As I have suggested before, Many Christians are being deceived.
Too many people don't bother to question what is right or wrong, and too many of us take what our governments position is on not just this but many other things as the absolute truth ignoring the strong influence of Zionism on it, the MSM parrots out the talking points and we blindly take that position, if you are against it, you are labeled "unpatriotic", if you speak out against Zionism, you become "anti-semetic". I have debunked those things for you.
There are always 2 sides to a story, and I choose to listen to both positions instead of spouting off the official propaganda, because
like it or not we have been lied to before, there is always an agenda
these liars are out to achieve at the expense of the American public
and our money. They have done a good job of taking what is said in the Bible and using it to fulfill their ravenous appetite for territory, and world domination. And so many people justify these things by saying "the Bible or my pastor told me so"
even though it goes against what Jesus came to teach.
I have made reference to the fact that if Christians continue to adhere to the Zionist goal of rebuilding the temple to offer sacrifices,
they are unwittingly denying that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice
for sins, therefore you are rebuking that Jesus died for your sins.
"It is only upon the true altar of God, through Christ, by his own blood, that God is satisfied with the final propitiation for sins. As scripture states, "...there remains no further sacrifice for sins."(Hebrews 10:26). Equally, there is absolutely no use or need for a temple if there is no Ark of Covenant, upon which the blood must be offered, which has been curiously missing since before the time of Christ.
Thus, the Ark of Covenant has no purpose and cannot serve God or any human being in any way, shape or form. There is only one purpose or need for a third temple, and that is for Jews to return to the full Mosaic Law and temple services which involve animal sacrifice for sins.
They seek to re-establish what should never be again, what was destroyed and left desolate (without the Spirit); they seek to re-enact services and sacrifices which, if offered, one could assume are utterly and entirely Satanic in the eyes of God and a grievous blasphemy...
This is the desire, goal and plan of the Antichrist, through deception, to fulfill by Satan that original vanity-driven claim for which he was cast out of Heaven by God: namely, that he would seize the throne of God.
Knowing this will result in the greatest of blasphemies, nonetheless, millions of Christians seek and look forward to a third temple and support various Jewish organizations which also desire a return to sacrifices! Yeah bring on the Rapture (another myth) And you also ignore the fact that many many Christians
have been victims of the Zionist agenda, this isn't just about Muslims
but it's easier for them to label all Palestinians as Muslims to create
a common enemy for the US public.
You also don't mention that about 4 million other people died at the hands of Nazis, many of them Christians.
And you continue to ignore these things, so you're right we can't have a decent debate when YOU ignore the FACTS.
What is happening today and has happened is ethnic cleansing and murder, and the Christian community is being played like pawns
by the Israeli Zionist machine. They have it down so good that we look at the REAL perpetrators, you know the ones that have snubbed their noses at 68 UN resolutions, as the victims. It would have made Dr Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister proud.

I seriously hope you can put aside precious time to view the vids,
and check out Ilan Pape's articles and vids. George Galloway is another source of decent debate and views.
PEACE..

[Wart]

And today Israel shelled the UN compound in Gaza.

Mad Dog mentality.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Wart

And today Israel shelled the UN compound in Gaza.

Mad Dog mentality.

Un -freaking believable. It is suspected
that phosphorus was used-Israel is using internationally banned weapons in its war such as White Phosphorus."John Ging who is the director of United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza. Ging believes that Israeli shells that recently struck the U.N. complex contained white phosphorus. "It looks and smells like phosphorus and it's burning like phosphorus. That's all I can say. That's why I'm calling it phosphorus," said Ging."
YouTube - Israel attacks UN aid compound with White Phosphorous Shells
"The complex under fire is the U.N. central distribution facility in Gaza. "We're trying to deal with our whole transport compound. It's on fire and now have some danger spreading into the warehouse, where all of the food and thousands of tons of food and medicine. This is a hub of the whole operation, the whole United Nations operation in Gaza, this is the hub, where it all comes to, gets distributed from," he said.

Three people have been reported as injured in the attack.

The Associated Press also reports that a hospital, several high-rises, and media building was hit by Israeli shelling and wounded several journalists.

A building housing the Associated Press offices was hit by bullets, with no reports of injuries at that location."

But of course Israel says they were attacked from the compound-
"The AP adds, "A senior Israeli military officer had also said Israeli troops shelled the compound after coming under fire from Palestinian militants there - an account dismissed by a U.N. official there at the time as 'nonsense.'"

Poor poor Israel, the Palestinians AND the UN make it so they are FORCED to annihilate everything and everybody.

What makes me sick is that the US encourages these bastards by giving them the weapons and aid to do this.

"Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest."

WRMEA: U.S. Aid to Israel

More on the UN compound raid-
"Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for the UN Relief and Works Agency, which is charged with helping Palestinian refugees, said that the Israelis had been provided with the GPS coordinates of all UN facilities in Gaza. He said that in the strike Thursday on the UN compound two buildings had been set ablaze and that there were five fully laden fuel vehicles at the site.

He rejected the Israeli claim that militants had fired from in or near the compound as "entirely baseless."

"With every false allegation, the credibility of those accusing us is incrementally diminished," he said.

He said that Israel had used three shells of white phosphorous at the compound, according to people at the site, citing the fact that fires caused by the shells had burned all day as evidence that the chemical was used.

White phosphorous creates smoke on a battlefield and can burn like a kind of napalm. There was no immediate response from Israel."
But I guess the UN officials are lying and are anti-semites
I'm telling you the next thing I fear is that Israel is going to strike at Iran.
"

The International Herald Tribune reports
U.S. rejected Israeli request to aid attack on Iran - International Herald Tribune

" President George W. Bush deflected a secret request by Israel last year for specialized bunker-busting bombs it wanted for an attack on Iran’s main nuclear complex and told the Israelis that he had authorized new covert action intended to sabotage Iran’s suspected effort to develop nuclear weapons, according to senior American and foreign officials. White House officials never conclusively determined whether Israel had decided to go ahead with the strike before the United States protested, or whether Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel was trying to goad the White House into more decisive action before Bush left office. But the Bush administration was particularly alarmed by an Israeli request to fly over Iraq to reach Iran’s major nuclear complex at Natanz, where the country’s only known uranium enrichment plant is located.
Is this simply another example of Israel’s attempting to use the US to achieve its own goals without regard for the consequences? As I’ve said before, Israel seems happy to take hand over fist anything it can get from the States and to leave the US holding the bag if things go badly.
US and Israeli policies have reached the parting of the ways."

If you remember Joe Biden said in the near future an event was going to take place that is going to put the new administration
in a difficult position.. If Iran or any other Arab country had nukes it
would keep these murderous bastards at bay. I'm sick of these Zionist F-KS

[poboys 94]

Gaza- JEWISH Rabbi telling the truth about Gaza (Palestine),finally what do you think?
YouTube - Gaza- JEWISH Rabbi telling the truth about Gaza (Palestine),finaly what you think?

This is why it is important not to condemn all Jewish people, or all
Palestinian or Arabs, it is the ZIOINIST Political movement, coincidentally
started by Atheists, that we must stand up to and rebuke, and vote out of office all the members of our Congress who are taking money from AIPAC, and constantly put the concerns of these fanatics ahead of their own American people, lets wake up people!

[Strype]

I don't know where you find these "theories" but they have nothing to do with reality.



Poboys my FIL was born and raised in Iran. My MIL lived there for 2 years and had to lay down in the back of a taxi cab to be snuck inside the American Embassy in Iran just 3 weeks before the place got taken over in 1979 I think it was.

My Mother-in-law has told me what it's like to live in a nation ruled by Islam. I have no clue as to how you can look at this situation, look at the history, bypass the facts and come up with these oddball interpretations about what is going on.

Hamas is a direct result of Israeli's cruelty?

I don't know of any other way of explaining save the way I did before.

[Reimann]

Originally Posted by Wart

And today Israel shelled the UN compound in Gaza.

Mad Dog mentality.

Israel is saying it was responding to anti-tank fire from within the building. If true the mad mentality is that the UN is letting its buildings be used by a terrorist organization. Of course, it all boils down to who do you want to believe. Obviously people like Poboys isn't going to assume for a second that Israel might have and a legitimate reason for firing on the building. Then again, one should not just assume that everything Israel says is fact. We're not there seeing what is going on so I'd advise both sides to keep an open mind and not let themselves get used by either side. That probably won't happen though.

[Strype]

[QUOTE=poboys 94;7770557]

That's right Israel is defying that UN resolution along with others pertaining to the illegal occupation. I would rule out using Wikipedia as a trustful or accurate source on this subject. This just in.

It says the same thing that everything else says. I couldn't read any further. You haven't sited a real reference since we've been here. Read Encarta or something else I don't get paid to be the Stangnet Historian.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Strype

I don't know where you find these "theories" but they have nothing to do with reality.



Poboys my FIL was born and raised in Iran. My MIL lived there for 2 years and had to lay down in the back of a taxi cab to be snuck inside the American Embassy in Iran just 3 weeks before the place got taken over in 1979 I think it was.

My Mother-in-law has told me what it's like to live in a nation ruled by Islam. I have no clue as to how you can look at this situation, look at the history, bypass the facts and come up with these oddball interpretations about what is going on.

Hamas is a direct result of Israeli's cruelty?

I don't know of any other way of explaining save the way I did before.

There are crazy azz fanatic SOBs out there no doubt about it, and I believe the US's policies keep helping to create
more and more. I have known and worked for Jewish people, Iraqis
Syrians, and Palestinians, and I have heard horror stories about life
in their countries. It was unsettling to hear my Jewish boss tell us during a conversation one day how they thought Jesus was a raving lunatic, were the others considered him a wise man and a prophet.
The things or "theories" I share with you all have links for you to check out. There are many well educated people who are knowledgeable and offer first hand accounts to back it up.
BTW, Wiki isn't the only source of information that the propaganda machine has infiltrated and compromised regarding the Israeli Palestine issue,

Written by Pakistan News :: Pakistan Daily
Saturday, 13 December 2008 00:44

It seems that the days of using YouTube as #1 media to distribute documentaries, videos and presentations about the truth of Israel and Zionist and their horrific war-crimes history and terrorism profile, has come to END.
Yesterday, it was announced that YouTube officially connected to the infamous ADL as partner to "Fight Against Hate."
... From now on, you should expect that no more videos that are anti-Zionist, anti-Israel, anti-war and anti-war crimes to be shown for more than the few hours (if lucky enough) after you upload your video. Sooner or later - and the period depends how critical the video is - all will be tagged with the infamous "anti-Semitism" tag and will be removed, ultimately the user will be blocked and banned. In no time, YouTube will become the official oasis for Mossad, therefore, only the Zionist version of the story will be found and endorsed by the media that follows blindly.
YouTube Partners with MOSSAD | Pakistan Daily

"..know it sounds too weird to believe, but that's the news. YouTube now has on-board one of the US’s domestic branches of Israel's intelligence service, the Mossad. The ADL, the Mossad’s most "professional" organization whose "speciality is spreading hate", are recruited as a professionals in the just struggle of "fighting against hate"?!
This partnership has many dimensions and should not be taken lightly.
The Truth Seeker - YouTube Partners with MOSSAD – ADL

ALSO-
January 7, 2009 -- Israeli Foreign Ministry coordinating propaganda-media campaign

Israel's Foreign Ministry is coordinating a worldwide campaign to flood blogs and media web sites with propaganda in support of Israel's Cast Lead military operations against Gaza. The Foreign Ministry has sent out a three page "talking points" memo to be used by Israeli sympathizers in their comments posted to blogs and major media web pages. The Israeli campaign encourages its supporters to vote in on-line polls and respond to postings that are opposed to Israel's actions and supportive of Palestinian Gazans.

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL)'s program to censor anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian videos on Youtube also appears to be in full swing. In conjunction with the ADL efforts, the Israeli Foreign Ministry is suggesting pro-Israeli Youtube videos to be posted to blogs.

Journalists who attempt to present fair coverage of the Israeli attacks on Gaza are being barraged with e-mails from Israel supporters accusing them of "buying into" Hamas propaganda and "supporting terrorism." The accusations are backfiring against Israel with many journalists comparing notes and realizing the e-mails are part of a coordinated Israeli propaganda and intimidation effort.
The Israeli propaganda campaign, while chilling independent and critical reporting in the corporate media, is having little effect among the progressive community.

[Strype]

I'm ADHD you unsympathetic bastage

[Reimann]

Here is a quiz for Hamas fan poboys to take. It's from an Australian site so a couple references might seem strange.

SURE, it's easy for progressive types to march through Western cities in solidarity with Hamas and be all blaming the Zionists.
But how much of a Hamas fan are you really? There's only one way to find out: take the Super Hamas Fanboy Multiple Choice Quiz!

Just answer these questions then total the results to find your level of Hamas compatibility. This test is certified 100 per cent accurate by the International Society of Middle Eastern Quizzlers.

1 Hamas is a:

a) Terrorist death cult

b) Misguided but well-meaning collective just trying to get by

c) Freedom-fighting movement I'd vote for if they ran for government in Australia

2 According to exiled Hamas leader Khalid Meshaal: "Our modest, home-made rockets are our cry of protest to the world." Which people construct these modest, home-made rockets?

a) Murderous Hamas operatives whose weapons have killed dozens of Israeli civilians

b) Ill-advised young men caught up in a cycle of violence

c) They are knitted by little old ladies sitting on porches in their rocking chairs. Some rockets have colourful doilies on them and are sold in craft markets

3 How do you feel when Hamas and rival Palestinian group Fatah begin killing each other, as happens from time to time?

a) Get me some popcorn! I love this show

b) It demonstrates just how deep are the troubling troubles in this troubled region

c) I hate it when mummy and daddy fight

4 What are you more likely to find in backyards throughout the southern Israeli city of Sderot, only a couple of kilometres from Gaza?

a) Modest, home-made rockets

b) Oil wells. Israel does have oil, right?

c) Scheming Jew-children plotting future occupation plans

5 Hamas's charter calls for the obliteration of Israel. Do you have a problem with that?

a) Well, yes. I'd have thought any civilised person would have a problem with that

b) Some allowance should be made for hyperbole

c) Israel shouldn't be there in the first place

6 Why are there gigantic secondary explosions when Israeli defence force missiles hit targeted mosques?

a) Those would be the massive stores of concealed armaments detonating, which explains why certain sites are under attack

b) Maybe there are problems with gas leaks

c) It's all the peace and spirituality escaping

7 Hamas's charter also cites the Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion, a Hitler-endorsed forgery alleging that (among other things) Jews feast on non-Jew blood. Again, any issues here?

a) Plenty

b) Hey, it might be just a problem with translation. You know how tricky that can be

c) Let's not take the Protocols out of context

8 How many "modest home-made rockets" and mortar shells were fired into Israel (which is one third the size of Tasmania) last year?

a) 3258 - a 128 per cent increase over the previous year

b) Maybe a few hundred; the news doesn't really mention any rockets much

c) The number isn't important. These are cries of protest to the world!

9 What did you make of the recording allegedly made by Osama bin Laden in which he called for a holy war in response to the Gaza attacks?

a) Big deal. It was just one insane terrorist talking to other terrorists

b) This could lead to a dangerous escalation of violence

c) As an elder statesman of the Islamist movement, we should heed his words

10 From where do you get your news about the Middle East?

a) A wide range of print and electronic media

b) Commercial television

c) The ABC

11 Female members of the IDF are:

a) Hot

b) Please, their obvious and intense hotness should not be an issue

c) They'd look better if they were wearing veils. And maybe vests lined with explosives

12 Malcolm Fraser claims that modest, home-made rockets are "the kind of weapon used by those who have been pushed too far and basically have no resources". Except for the resources required to build and launch 3258 rockets. How long would Israel exist if Hamas had nuclear resources?

a) Not even as long as Fraser was going to remain prime minister once Bob Hawke became ALP leader

b) It depends. Would these be modest, home-made nuclear resources?

c) Er, um . . . racism!

Results

Next, the tallying of your results. Award one point for every "a" answer, five points for every "b" and 10 for every "c". Where do you stand?

12-40: Shalom, Schlomo! What are you doing completing a quiz during the Sabbath? For shame.

41-80: You have the potential to be a loyal and valuable Hamas supporter, yet you exhibit worrying signs of reasonableness and sanity.

81-120: Congratulations, honorary Hamas operative! Your solidarity with the struggle is duly noted. Now, let's see if this modest, home-made Semtex vest fits you.

[Uncle Meat]

U.M.

[poboys 94]

Originally Posted by Reimann

Here is a quiz for Hamas fan poboys to take. It's from an Australian site so a couple references might seem strange.

Funny stuff Reimann I got one for tho-

Middle East Pop Quiz

by Charley Reese

It's time for another pop quiz on America's favorite region of the world – the Middle East. Let's get started with the subject of nuclear weapons.

Which country in the Middle East actually possesses nuclear weapons?

Israel.

Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?

Israel.

Which country in the Middle East refuses to allow international inspections of its nuclear facilities?

Israel.

Which countries in the Middle East have called for the region to be a nuclear-free zone?

The Arab countries and Iran.

Which country in the Middle East occupies land belonging to other people?

Israel, which occupies a piece of Lebanon, a larger piece of Syria, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza.

Which country in the Middle East has for 60 years refused to allow refugees to return to their homes and refused to consider compensation to them for their lost property?

Israel.

Which country has roads on which citizens who are Arab may not drive and housing developments where Arabs may not live?

Israel.

Which country in the region has violated more United Nations resolutions than any other?

Israel. The United States has on more than one occasion gone to war ostensibly to enforce U.N. Security Council resolutions, but when it comes to resolutions directed against Israel, the U.S. is like the amoral monkey that sees, hears and says nothing. That raises the question of who's the dog and who's the tail?

Which country in the region has in the past been led by men who at one time were terrorists with a price on their heads?

Israel. Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir once led the Stern Gang and ordered, among other things, the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, a Swedish diplomat working for the United Nations. Former Prime Minister Menachem Begin led the Irgun, a terrorist gang that among other things blew up one wing of the King David Hotel, killing nearly 100 people.

Which country in the Middle East openly employs assassination against its political enemies?

Israel. There have been assassinations carried out by some of the Arab governments, but they usually don't own up to them. Israel has created a euphemism that the suck-up American press has readily adopted: "targeted killings." A British journalist told me once, "The Palestinians have a talent for picking bad leaders, and the Israelis have a talent for murdering their good ones."

What are the top five countries from which we import oil?

Here they are in order of volume: Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Nigeria and Venezuela. The next time you hear some blowhard politician ranting about how the Arabs control our oil imports, remind him or her of the facts. By far, a majority of oil imports come from non-Arab countries.

Which country in the region receives an annual gift of $3 billion or more from Congress?

Israel.

Which foreign-aid recipient is the only one allowed to receive its aid in a lump sum and which routinely invests part of it in U.S. Treasuries so that taxpayers pay them interest on the taxpayers' gift?

Israel.

Which country in the Middle East has the most powerful lobby in the U.S.?

Israel.

Which country in the Middle East are most American politicians, journalists and academics afraid to criticize?

Israel.

On behalf of which country has the U.S. vetoed the largest number of U.N. Security Council resolutions?

Israel.

What country do the people in the region consider the world's biggest hypocrite?

The United States.

Which countries in the Middle East have attacked U.S. ships in international waters?

Iraq and Israel. A lone Iraqi plane fired one missile at a U.S. ship by mistake. The Iraqi government quickly compensated the U.S. In 1967, Israeli airplanes and torpedo boats attacked the USS Liberty, killing 34 Americans. The U.S. government declared it an accident even before the ship limped into port, and to this day Congress has never held a public hearing and allowed the survivors to tell their story. Their story, by the way, is that the attack was deliberate. Israel compensated the families of those who were killed, but resisted for years paying compensation for the ship.
Anyway just to make it clear, I do not support Hamas, or its doctrine. The Palestinian people made a mistake in electing them.
After listening to Ambassador Afif Safieh Head of PLO Mission to the U.S.A., I think his views on the possible solution are reasonable.
He actually would like to convince his people to take a non violent
stance in their protest of the occupation, and he seems more reasonable to deal with then Hamas.

To change the Palestinians' status he advocated a "popular nonviolent resistance" of Palestinians against Israel. He predicted that most Arab states would accept Israel if it "curbed its territorial appetite" and returned to its pre-1967 borders. The current round of turmoil and bloodshed, involving rocket attacks on Israel from Hamas-led Gaza and an Israeli military assault on Gaza, is propelled by Israeli intransigence, he claimed.

With peace talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians now suspended, he sees the future of the Palestinians as dependent on U.S. and other foreign intervention. "I believe that the two-state solution is the way out," he said.
Safieh recently spoke Regarding the election of Hamas:
What happened in the recent PA elections? Fatah defeated itself. First, it had the burden of longevity in power, and people were bored. Second, there was the undeniable fact of corruption. Third, Fatah became identified with the negotiations, the peace process, and the two-state solution. The peace process had been non-existent for six years, and for the six years before that it was weak. Occupation expanded during the period after 1991, not declined, and Fatah paid the price.
Safieh said his party, Fatah, lost power because it had been in charge since 1968, was alleged to be corrupt and was damned by its association with the peace process that yielded few tangible results for his people.
The absence of a convincing peace process produced the Hamas victory.
Safieh characterized the evolution of the struggle in a nifty two-liner: "Today, we are not witnessing Arab rejection of Israeli existence. We are witnessing Israeli rejection of Arab acceptance. Arab states have made it clear again that if Israel surrenders its 1967 'expansion,' then Arabs will recognize Israel's pre-1967 existence."

On suicide bombers-Safieh replied,
"I am happy to say that I stand in front of Jewish audiences and condemn all suicide bombings, and am happy to say that in 2006 there was only one, and that one should be condemned. But those who do not condemn Israeli targeted and untargeted assassinations are not morally qualified to condemn suicide bombers."

On the matter of Holocaust denial- Safieh noted that the anti-Holocaust conference was "in extremely poor taste," and "I am one who believes that Jews in Europe suffered, and if I were a Jew the Holocaust would be the most horrible event in history." He then made the point that blacks in South Africa might feel that way about aparthied, and Native Americans surely feel that way about the European destruction of their civilization.

Afif Safieh: 'I never compare the Palestinian Nakba to the Holocaust' - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent
Afif Safieh
Afif Safieh (biographical details)

http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/children.htm

[Reimann]

You know absolutely none of that is going to convince anyone of anything? We give Egypt billions of dollars, treaties are meaningless unless you follow them, Pakistan and India has nukes, Iran is trying for nukes, and no one but conspiracy nutts is going to care about a friendly fire incident 42 years ago. The rest of your stuff is either irrelivant and or probably doesn't have any reliable sources. Your quoting families of suicide bombers is a real turn off.

And FYI, the way you post is just obnoxious. Try to shorten the message to a few meaningful paragraphs, don't quote people we don't know, don't cite obviously bias sources, and for the love of god quit bolding half the @#$&ing message. Seriously, it makes it hard to read.

Oh, and if you don't like Israeli not letting Muslims drive on some roads (and I have no verification that is even true) I'm sure you'll hate that Saudi Arabia kills any non-Muslim that enters Mecca.