 | | 
05-17-09, 10:34 AM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang  Does anyone know about the stock heads on these late model 351's? Won't the GT40's flow better? If so, is it enough to justify swapping them onto this motor? I plan to port the crap out of the GT40's the best I can.
And I do plan to take this thing to a dyno day somewhere to see what it'll do. |
Heres a old head flow chart. From what I remember the newer 351 truck heads have the smaller 302 valves not the ones listed in this chart like the early heads. So yes the GT40's will flow better than the stock 351 heads P41538 Image Large Photo
Also if I remember right all 351's have the 28oz balance....302's had the same until 1982 when they switched to the 50oz balance on the 302's.
The TF stage 2 cam has 542", .563". Probably not enough clearance....you would def have to check P/V with that much lift on stock valve releif pistons.
Just for an Idea what Saleen did starting in 1994. He used a Lightening shortblock and flycut the pistons for a bigger cam. I don't know the cam spec's....but have heard it's like a T/F/stage 2 cam. (I am hoping to get a stock cam to check it for spec's. #77 had a aftermarket cam when I bought it and #58 is all stock with 54k mi and I don't want to take it apart it runs fine!)
So he flycut the pistons, cam, edlbrock alum heads, 65mmTB, mass air, roller rockers, Explorer intake with the upper cut and a section added, then they are extrude honed, shorty headers, 2 1/2" cats and a Borla cat back and a new computer I have heard they are out of a Bronco or Van with a 351 and I think he put's a tune on it.....I have never pulled #58's out to check, #77 had no ford computer it had an old DFI system when I bought it I have since upgraded it.
They were rated at 371hp 422ft lbs, 172mph. With a Vortech and 8lbs the torque went up to around 480ft lbs and the HP to 480 also. In 1996 he put T/F heads and a different tune and the N/A cars were 400hp, 432ft lbs, supercharged were 510hp and 490? i think torque. The tune was off on the S/C cars until later years so alot of motors blew.....also later on he started using forged internals not the lightening shortblock. He did have a company in Texas assemble the engines and then shipped them to Calif. Also he put in a 3550 Tremec then in 1997 switched to a 6sp. Sure he could have got more power BUT he had to warranty the cars also.
MM&FF took a 1996 N/A car and got it in the 12's with slicks and got it up to 165mph. They also got a supercharged car with a slipping clutch to run 11.3's in the 1/4mi. The S/C cars trapped around 122mph in the 1/4mi. I have also heard that the 0-60 times of the N/A vs S/C were very close......traction is a problem 
Back in 1997 or 1998 Road and track tested a S/C car and said it walked away from a Viper. Vipers were rated at 450hp at the time, they had 17" wheels while the Saleens had 18". S351's were the S**T and I drooled everytime I read about one.....but I was broke and NEVER thought I'd ever own one!
Last edited by S351Saleen77; 05-17-09 at 10:40 AM.
|
05-17-09, 01:57 PM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| |
Thanks for the great post! So if I wanted to run the TFS stage 2, could I flycut the pistons to make it work? Any write ups on fly cutting the pistons? I'm sure it has to be easy with the heads off the motor. Any special tool I can get to do it? |
05-17-09, 02:11 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang Thanks for the great post! So if I wanted to run the TFS stage 2, could I flycut the pistons to make it work? Any write ups on fly cutting the pistons? I'm sure it has to be easy with the heads off the motor. Any special tool I can get to do it? | I know Isky makes a tool that you use your heads as a guide to notch the valve relief's. You can rent them from Isky for $40. I have heard that these do work!
I have never used them. On stock pistons I have never gone over .520 lift and have always had clearance. Aftermarket pistons have reliefs cut in them already.
Click on "Tools & kit's" then click on "Notchers & Cutters" http://www.iskycams.com/onlinecatalog.html
The stock pistons probably have a big dish for low compression, You can always put the cam in and check for P/V clearance then go from there.
Heres a link to some Flat top Sealed Power pistons with big releifs for cheap on ebay. I got some for a friends 302 for $99 a few years ago. Great deal! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-S...4506.m20.l1116
Last edited by S351Saleen77; 05-17-09 at 03:17 PM.
|
05-18-09, 12:49 AM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2005 Location: Jerkwater, USA
Posts: 2,727
| |
You might be getting into a lot of work and $$..more than you think. If it helps at all.. In terms of heads, pro-comps, shorties got me to 358rwhp but the pro-comps were at max flow. So thats roughly 430+HP with my trans. The typhoon intake was cheap but wouldnt flow past 4600 rpm and now it pulls to 7000 with the victor. Big difference.
The pro-comps were prolly better than a gt40 and I think the cost me $600 -800 new. The typhoon intake may flow well for a 5.8. Of course when I went to the better heads and other upgrades I went 100+rwhp past that though. But then its back to $$$ which is off topic of this thread. |
05-18-09, 10:16 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| |
Heres a pic of the battery tray mod. Also a pic of a hold down that works perfect for a Optima battery I think it will work with stock also ...it's from I think a 90's Corvette. I will find out the year for sure.
Hope this helps
Tom   |
05-18-09, 10:19 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| |
Mark,
I know this is a budget swap and I think the Ford F cam has I think 6 deg more duration than the E and the lift is still low so you would probably be fine on p/v clearance and they are only about $30 more than the T/F cam.....just a thought. |
05-19-09, 07:57 AM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| |
Doesn't saleen set their engines back 1" and down a little further? If so, then that could be why you only needed a slight modification to the tray.
Yes, F cams are pretty easy to find used too.
question: Since the F cam doesn't have a bunch of lift, could I get away, at first, running my stock valve springs on the GT40 heads? Also, since my motor won't make any kind of top end power, as has already been pointed out 100 times, I won't have any business revving it that high, which means I won't have any valve float happening. Am I on the right track here?
And I like the 114 LSA of the F cam, should play really nice with the T4MO computer, correct?
Thanks for all the good advice!
Last edited by The_Mustang; 05-19-09 at 08:01 AM.
|
05-19-09, 08:31 AM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: December 2002 Location: Miami
Posts: 1,422
| |
Why not get a custom cam from Ed Curtis? He made me one for my twin 358w and I love it. Nice and Lopey |
05-19-09, 10:33 AM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: October 2003 Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,420
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by str8stang036 Why not get a custom cam from Ed Curtis? He made me one for my twin 358w and I love it. Nice and Lopey | I think that doesn't fit the OP's goal of a very low budget. Not putting words in his mouth, but I believe that he has said that in the future, he plans to do a major buildup with boost, at which time a custom cam would be in the mix, but for now, no. |
05-19-09, 10:51 AM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang Doesn't saleen set their engines back 1" and down a little further? If so, then that could be why you only needed a slight modification to the tray.
Yes, F cams are pretty easy to find used too.
question: Since the F cam doesn't have a bunch of lift, could I get away, at first, running my stock valve springs on the GT40 heads? Also, since my motor won't make any kind of top end power, as has already been pointed out 100 times, I won't have any business revving it that high, which means I won't have any valve float happening. Am I on the right track here?
And I like the 114 LSA of the F cam, should play really nice with the T4MO computer, correct?
Thanks for all the good advice! | True they set the engine lower and back by notching the K member....but this pic is with a Grigg's K member. The motor is in the foward position on the K member...the member has a 1" setback also but the bellhousing (Lakewood) hit the trans tunnel. I do have it spaced down about 1/4". The notch in the tray just clears the pulleys. So if the engine is in the stock location with this K member, then it should work.....so I dunno??  On Thursday when I go to my buddy's shop I will ask what the guy who did a 351 swap on his 94 did.
Yes I also thought about the F cam used....  I saw one on Ebay for around $100.
You Might be able to get away with the stock springs just check for coil bind......I would try to replace them ASAP.
I dont' remember the spec's but yeah a 114 should help......Grady would be able to answer that one better than me. I'm no expert on the stock computer.  |
05-19-09, 12:32 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: December 2002 Location: Miami
Posts: 1,422
| |
I spent years collecting parts for my 351w build because im my opinion, I wanted the"351w" to feel, sound, look like what a 351w is for me. It was built with future upgrades in mind.
Isn't a very low budget 351w basically the same a 302 with a blower? My opnion |
05-19-09, 03:16 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2005 Location: Jerkwater, USA
Posts: 2,727
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by str8stang036 I spent years collecting parts for my 351w build because im my opinion, I wanted the"351w" to feel, sound, look like what a 351w is for me. It was built with future upgrades in mind.
Isn't a very low budget 351w basically the same a 302 with a blower? My opnion | Yes and no. It will be typically more powerful and reliable than a stock 302 with a basic blower. Using grady's rule which I have kicked around quite a bit for what I consider a street car..   ... and finally sided with a 1:1 ratio being the norm of 90% of cars I see..  flame suit on: .. A street H/C/I 351W will put out roughly 350rwhp vs a 302 H/C/I 302rwhp vs a blown stock 302 @ roughly 302rwhp $ for $. Now if you go more radical H/C/I 302, you can build it to the NA power of your mild street 351 but it still wont have the low end. If you put a blower on a H/C/I 302 then its no comparison to a mild 351 build..but then we are apples and oranges. |
05-19-09, 09:42 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| |
Well, the place I ordered my Typhoon intake from (BlueOvalIndustries) called me today to let me know the intake is on back order, and Pro. Products doesn't have a def. date one when they'll get more. So they're refunding me. Now I'm back to square one!
I do feel kinda relieved because I really didnt' want that intake to begin with, but I was going to run it for a while anyway.
Chris, why don't you yank that typhoon off your car and sell it to me for a good price, you know, since your plates are all turned in and everything (lol). Seriously though, you could probably use a better flowing intake anyway, right? |
05-20-09, 09:07 AM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: December 2002 Location: Miami
Posts: 1,422
| |
Do you like the Trick Flow "R" Series Intake. I had it on mine once before, you can swap the upper to their box intake if you go boosted in the future |
05-20-09, 10:05 AM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: October 2003 Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,420
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang Chris, why don't you yank that typhoon off your car and sell it to me for a good price, you know, since your plates are all turned in and everything (lol). Seriously though, you could probably use a better flowing intake anyway, right? | yes, it could use a better flowing intake, even though i don't i rev it to where it would actually take advantage of it.
and i have been going back and forth about taking the plates off ... i kinda need to be able to drive it in case someone is interested in it and wants to take a test drive
i would yank the PP off mine for ya if i had another intake to put on it 
maybe we can do something creative like you contribute <X> dollars for a new intake for me, and i ship my PP to you after the swap ...
of course i need to be sure it will still fit under the hood |
05-20-09, 10:37 AM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| |
well, you figure out how much you need for your new intake and we'll go from there. Maybe the edelbrock and elbow would work for your combo and it supposed to offer more hood clearance. |
05-20-09, 12:54 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| | I thought I would show some pic's of what the N/A S351's look like    |
05-20-09, 02:07 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| |
It ticks me off that Ford Racing dosn't step up and start offering the 351W lower intakes. They mass produce replica 5.0 Cobra intakes, so it wouldn't be much for them to start popping out 351 lowers. If I could get hold of one, I could just use my Explorer upper and be done with it! |
05-20-09, 03:15 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: June 2002 Location: Washington
Posts: 400
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang It ticks me off that Ford Racing dosn't step up and start offering the 351W lower intakes. They mass produce replica 5.0 Cobra intakes, so it wouldn't be much for them to start popping out 351 lowers. If I could get hold of one, I could just use my Explorer upper and be done with it! |
Tell him you just want the lOWER!!! Or offer him $400 and sell yours or his upper. mustang intake gt40 gt 40 TUBULAR upper and lower 5.0 302 351w |
05-20-09, 03:19 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: October 2003 Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,420
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang well, you figure out how much you need for your new intake and we'll go from there. Maybe the edelbrock and elbow would work for your combo and it supposed to offer more hood clearance. | i'll see what i can come up with and get back to you
i'm thinking maybe something based off the PP 54034 with an elbow and fuel rails
Last edited by BlackVert; 05-20-09 at 03:21 PM.
|
05-20-09, 08:27 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| |
Did you come up with anything yet? Tell me what's on ya mind... |
05-20-09, 09:12 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: October 2003 Location: Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,420
| |
i'm working on putting together a spyder-like setup with a PP hurricane and an elbow from coast. the hurricane requires aftermarket fuel rails, so i'm trying to figure that out. i have some rails from mallory, but the injector bosses may not be spaced the same as the hurricane, so i don't know if i can use it. the PP rails are $245 from summit |
05-20-09, 09:23 PM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: April 2003 Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 6,513
| |
Lets talk about the topic of ..........
Picking a cam with a WIDE lsa to play nice with the pcm
My Opinion ... I repeat ... My Opinion
That is one of those phrases that really gets on my last nerve 
Two reasons
1) We be a forum for 94-95 pcms NOT Fox pcms
therefore
We need to NOT think like Fox folk 
Our pcm's are load based!
You up the cubic inches by 50 or more cubes and you are gonna have a
pcm that is hosed in the load department if you
try and run it un-optimized 
2) Pick a cam to make power and focus on that thought ONLY 
then
You optimize the pcm to take care of driveability issues as they crop up 
Bottom line ... just think of a tune as a hot rod part
Just like a set of heads, intake, etc
and
Just budget in that cost like any other hot rod part
Rant is over now 
Grady |
05-20-09, 10:28 PM
| | Official Member | | Join Date: May 2006 Location: J-Ville, FL
Posts: 795
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVert i'm working on putting together a spyder-like setup with a PP hurricane and an elbow from coast. the hurricane requires aftermarket fuel rails, so i'm trying to figure that out. i have some rails from mallory, but the injector bosses may not be spaced the same as the hurricane, so i don't know if i can use it. the PP rails are $245 from summit | Dude, Summit is HIGH priced! Check out ebay and other places like Brother's Performance and Blue Oval Industries. They beat the crap out of Summits price even with shipping added.
Summit wanted around 600 for that polished typhoon intake!  |
05-26-09, 06:37 AM
|  | Official Member | | Join Date: September 2003 Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,084
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mustang Dude, Summit is HIGH priced! Check out ebay and other places like Brother's Performance and Blue Oval Industries. They beat the crap out of Summits price even with shipping added.
Summit wanted around 600 for that polished typhoon intake! |
haha DAMN! $625 for a PP intake? They are on crack and a TFS R-series is $700.
Do they not know on ebay they are being sold for $399? hahahahaha | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Rate This Thread |  Linear Mode | | 
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
| | | |
| |
