[allcarfan]

"muscle cars"

have always been heavy and slow, with lots of HP. Do you think the muscle cars of the 60s all ran 11s and pulled 1g on the skid pad and braked with precision? No.

Most of them were 13-14 second cars with GOBS of HP, weighed a ton, had drum brakes, tremendous body roll.

[fox1x]

Originally posted by Top Speed:

A new Mustang GT (Standard) stickers for $29k. After negotations, you should be able to drive one home for around $27k.

I Bought my 2007 MGT in August of 2006. It stickered for $27,500 and I was able to get it for $23k. Mustangs have always been a tremendous value. As I posted in the previous post (with the link); there's dealerships selling new MGT's for $19,xxx. Mustangs will always be the better value. Even in the last years of the Camaro/Firebird; the Mustang still outsold the GM couterparts by a 3 to 1 ratio.

[Top Speed]

Originally Posted by allcarfan

"muscle cars"

have always been heavy and slow, with lots of HP. Do you think the muscle cars of the 60s all ran 11s and pulled 1g on the skid pad and braked with precision? No.

Most of them were 13-14 second cars with GOBS of HP, weighed a ton, had drum brakes, tremendous body roll.

While I'll agree that most of them ran in the 13s-14s and didn't handle for squat, they were not always extremely heavy. An early 70s Nova SS weighed about 3400 lbs, if that. A 1962 Nova SS weighed around 2900 lbs. An early 70s Impala SS weighed about 4200 lbs; pretty light for such a boat. A 1969 Chevelle SS weighed about 3500 lbs, while the 1970 model was the heaviest, at around 3700 lbs, and it had a 454 in it. Even look at the Fox-Body Mustangs. They weighed about 3100 lbs.

What good is a Muscle Car if it has 450 hp and weighs 4000 lbs if a Honda Civic with a motor-swap and 275 hp will eat its lunch? Kinda makes me want a Honda Civic...Ok, not really, but you get the point.

Remember the latest Mercury Marauder? I'll bet those owners were pissed to find out a V6 Honda Accord was faster than their "Muscle Car."

[Top Speed]

Originally Posted by fox1x

Originally posted by Top Speed:


I Bought my 2007 MGT in August of 2006. It stickered for $27,500 and I was able to get it for $23k. Mustangs have always been a tremendous value. As I posted in the previous post (with the link); there's dealerships selling new MGT's for $19,xxx. Mustangs will always be the better value. Even in the last years of the Camaro/Firebird; the Mustang still outsold the GM couterparts by a 3 to 1 ratio.

So what do you think I could get a new GT for; "Standard" package?

[allcarfan]

Originally Posted by Top Speed

While I'll agree that most of them ran in the 13s-14s and didn't handle for squat, they were not always extremely heavy. An early 70s Nova SS weighed about 3400 lbs, if that. A 1962 Nova SS weighed around 2900 lbs. An early 70s Impala SS weighed about 4200 lbs; pretty light for such a boat. A 1969 Chevelle SS weighed about 3500 lbs, while the 1970 model was the heaviest, at around 3700 lbs, and it had a 454 in it. Even look at the Fox-Body Mustangs. They weighed about 3100 lbs.

What good is a Muscle Car if it has 450 hp and weighs 4000 lbs if a Honda Civic with a motor-swap and 275 hp will eat its lunch? Kinda makes me want a Honda Civic...Ok, not really, but you get the point.

Remember the latest Mercury Marauder? I'll bet those owners were pissed to find out a V6 Honda Accord was faster than their "Muscle Car."

What you must remember also is that MOST (not including the fox.....not sure how that got thrown in there) of the cars you mentioned had:

No AC
No Power Brakes
14 or 15" wheels
very basic suspension
100lbs less of wire and electronics

If you want to add the above options to cars of today, the weight would be about the same. Times change, what can I say?

Who cares what a car weighs....its about how it performs.

[SS02]

Originally Posted by fox1x

Originally posted by Top Speed:


I Bought my 2007 MGT in August of 2006. It stickered for $27,500 and I was able to get it for $23k. Mustangs have always been a tremendous value. As I posted in the previous post (with the link); there's dealerships selling new MGT's for $19,xxx. Mustangs will always be the better value. Even in the last years of the Camaro/Firebird; the Mustang still outsold the GM couterparts by a 3 to 1 ratio.

As reported by USA Today:
Such a hot model is rare in today's global auto sales slump, and GM thinks Camaro may catch Ford's Mustang in monthly sales when it has enough available. GM sold 5,463 Camaros in May, the first month of the sporty car's revival, compared with the 8,812 Mustangs sold by Ford. Chrysler sold 2,695 of the rival Dodge Challenger it brought a year ago.

GM spokesman Terry Rhadigan says Camaro will be "right with Mustang on sales" by the end of June.

As reported by GMhightechperformance:

Besides being a far superior automobile to the 2010 Mustang in every single way, the new Camaro has just beat it in
something else; Sales. In the month of June, GM has reported 9,320 Camaros went out the door, while Ford reports selling just 7,632 Mustangs. Let's not even talk about the 2010 Challenger, which sold a measly 1,369 cars.

[Wolvrin704]

Originally Posted by SS02

As reported by USA Today:
Besides being a far superior automobile to the 2010 Mustang in every single way, the new Camaro has just beat it in
something else; Sales.

Thats certainly debateable.

In the month of June, GM has reported 9,320 Camaros went out the door, while Ford reports selling just 7,632 Mustangs. Let's not even talk about the 2010 Challenger, which sold a measly 1,369 cars.

I think what you're seeing is new model sales. Once the Camaro has been out for awhile and especially once the 5.0 engine comes out the Mustang will be back on top or worst even, not to mention a redesign coming I've heard in 2014 which again will generate new sales.

[Top Speed]

Originally Posted by allcarfan

What you must remember also is that MOST (not including the fox.....not sure how that got thrown in there) of the cars you mentioned had:

No AC
No Power Brakes
14 or 15" wheels
very basic suspension
100lbs less of wire and electronics

If you want to add the above options to cars of today, the weight would be about the same. Times change, what can I say?

Who cares what a car weighs....its about how it performs.

Who cares what a car weighs? You will, as soon as you find yourself going towards a corner a little bit quicker than you anticipated.

As for no a/c and what-not, there were plenty of classic Muscle Cars that had power brakes and a/c.

Maybe these automakers wouldn't be hurting so much if they quit spending money on crap that not everyone wants. We've basically had technologies we don't want forced down our throats.

Call me old-fashioned, but all I need are power windows and an a/c. I couldn't care less about Blue-tooth, a 1000 watt Monsoon stereo, NAV system, or any of that other crap.

Originally Posted by SS02

As reported by GMhightechperformance:

Besides being a far superior automobile to the 2010 Mustang in every single way, the new Camaro has just beat it in
something else; Sales. In the month of June, GM has reported 9,320 Camaros went out the door, while Ford reports selling just 7,632 Mustangs. Let's not even talk about the 2010 Challenger, which sold a measly 1,369 cars.

Please tell me you don't actually take anything for granted that those idiots say. GM High Tech Performance is nothing more than glossy toilet paper. They're on the twig and berries of what ever the newest thing is. They were all over the LT1 when it came out, then it suddenly sucked when the LS1 came out, and lemme guess...now the LS1 sucks and the LS3 is the greatest thing to ever, right?

There's a reason the Mustang's been successful for 45 years and the Camaro hasn't. Ok, maybe the Camaro will beat the Mustang in sales this year, and possibly next year, but 3 years from now, nobody will care about it. It'll just be a stale design that had taken its course.

Every time the Camaro is redesigned it sells well for 1 or 2 years, and then...nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I love Camaros, but I wouldn't even consider that new...thing...a Camaro. That right there is a desecration and an abomination to the Camaro nameplate.

[Fast05]

And how many millions of dollars did GM have to spend on marketing for the new camaro? I'm sure it trumps the money Ford spent on the Mustang. Also keep in mind there are more Camaros at dealerships than there are Mustangs. Ford only produced about 45,000 2009 Mustangs and shut down production early to start on the 2010s. In the meantime the new ones have literally been trickling onto dealership lots. Whereas GM spent a ton of money putting the car in 2 movies and countless ads, built up inventory and then made a "splash." I've now seen about twice the number of camaros than new mustangs on the road down here.

Question is, will the hype survive the test of time? Or the car for that matter? It's a brand new model (as anyone here knows who bought an 05 mustang, they can have problems) it took them years to finally get it to market and now GM is bankrupt, and my tax paying dollars now pay for your camaro when it breaks down.

[allcarfan]

Originally Posted by Top Speed

Who cares what a car weighs?

Um....maybe you should reread my post you quoted and look at the last line?

And, if you are going to say something, try not to contradict yourself....

Top Speed: When I found out the camaro weighed 4000lbs, I nearly lost my lunch

Top Speed: The stang, camaro, and challenger or so heavy, they shouldnt be classified as muscle cars.


Obviously "weight" was a factor in those things you said....no?

[Top Speed]

Originally Posted by allcarfan

Um....maybe you should reread my post you quoted and look at the last line?

And, if you are going to say something, try not to contradict yourself....

Top Speed: When I found out the camaro weighed 4000lbs, I nearly lost my lunch

Top Speed: The stang, camaro, and challenger or so heavy, they shouldnt be classified as muscle cars.


Obviously "weight" was a factor in those things you said....no?

Actually, maybe you should re-read my post, because you got it totally wrong. I said nothing about the Mustang GT. What I commented on was the weight of the Shelby GT-500.

Given that this is the internet and things come out as more defensive than they really are, no matter how I type this, this is going to sound rude, but it is not meant to be.

If you are going to call me on something, that's fine, and I have no problem discussing or debating it, but at least call me on something that I actually said.

[SS02]

Originally Posted by Fast05

And how many millions of dollars did GM have to spend on marketing for the new camaro? I'm sure it trumps the money Ford spent on the Mustang. Also keep in mind there are more Camaros at dealerships than there are Mustangs. Ford only produced about 45,000 2009 Mustangs and shut down production early to start on the 2010s. In the meantime the new ones have literally been trickling onto dealership lots. Whereas GM spent a ton of money putting the car in 2 movies and countless ads, built up inventory and then made a "splash." I've now seen about twice the number of camaros than new mustangs on the road down here.

Question is, will the hype survive the test of time? Or the car for that matter? It's a brand new model (as anyone here knows who bought an 05 mustang, they can have problems) it took them years to finally get it to market and now GM is bankrupt, and my tax paying dollars now pay for your camaro when it breaks down.

As reported by USA Today:
Such a hot model is rare in today's global auto sales slump, and GM thinks Camaro may catch Ford's Mustang in monthly sales when it has enough available. GM sold 5,463 Camaros in May, the first month of the sporty car's revival, compared with the 8,812 Mustangs sold by Ford. Chrysler sold 2,695 of the rival Dodge Challenger it brought a year ago.

The Camaro cant reach the supply and demand either, I know guys waiting 2 months before they get their ride !!!

[white-04]

I'll start off by saying I'm not a chevy/camaro hater. I really like the Corvette.

I've seen the Camaro several times in person, and feel its too tall, just like the Challenger. The side panels are just huge. The front end of the Camaro is too tall too, looks like it belongs on a 80s monte carlo ss. I like the style, but don't think they executed as well as they could have. I'm guessing they were limited somewhat since they didn't build this from the frame up like the Mustang.

The weight is the other issue. I'd prefer something a little more nimble.

[Fast05]

Originally Posted by SS02

As reported by USA Today:
Such a hot model is rare in today's global auto sales slump, and GM thinks Camaro may catch Ford's Mustang in monthly sales when it has enough available. GM sold 5,463 Camaros in May, the first month of the sporty car's revival, compared with the 8,812 Mustangs sold by Ford. Chrysler sold 2,695 of the rival Dodge Challenger it brought a year ago.

The Camaro cant reach the supply and demand either, I know guys waiting 2 months before they get their ride !!!

They're just having a hard time keeping up with all the old people with wet dreams from the 60s. Once the hype is over this car will most likely see the same fate the last Camaro and GTO did. Most of the general public does not care about 1/4 mile times. It wouldn't surprise me if it sold well ---- for the first year or so. GM just wanted to get this car out before they went under....and now we're all part owners as tax payers. Maybe we should give them insight.....like an interior that doesn't look like my friend's pontiac g5 on the inside.

[SS02]

^^^^^2/3 of all sales are V6...I agree most dont care about 1/4 Mile times, but the V6 Camaro looks a whole hell of alot better than the V6 Stang....and its equipped with a 304hp engine that runs the 1/4 along side of the SN-95 V8 Stangs

The V6 always leads in sales, and I think the Camaro will continue to sell at a high rate. Time will tell

[schacher94gt]

How are you comparing the new v6 camaro to the much underpowered sn-95 stangs...thats just like saying the new v6 out runs third gens v8....who cares

[01GTConv]

I spent quite a bit of time looking at both cars. In the end there were several factors that made me pick the 2010 Mustang. First, Chevy dealers acted like they were doing you a favor by letting you put down $2000 non refundable, on a full price (or more car) that wouldn't be there for 3-4 months. Some dealers didn't even have allocation and would take money to put you on list, and then would order when they did have allocation (once you moved up their internal list). I went to a few dealers and I just didn't feel comfortable in the transaction...all the GM crap didn't help. Was that dealer even going to be there in 3 months? I felt like saying, "hey, isn't your company is hurting?...show some sign you actually want me to buy a car, and didn't I see this thing in a movie like 3 years ago". I had owned a Mustang before and enjoyed it, so I had some bias going in...but if the Camaro was "the car" I was going to get it.

Now not reading numbers in the brochure...just going by feel, the two cars were super comparable. The interior is great, they both drive well and feel powerful. The Camaro maybe edges out on the new wow factor but when I took my 2010 Mustang to the track it got a lot of attention too.

So, I hit the Ford dealer....and dang they actually want to sell a car. And wow, it is a huge amount cheaper (about $5260 for comparable Camaro I was looking at). And can you believe it, they actually have them on the lot.

So in the end, availability, price, company, dealership on a tested a tweaked Mustang helped win my vote. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Camaro, heck I almost bought one but for me Mustang was the right choice and I am loving it.

[Wolvrin704]

Originally Posted by SS02

^^^^^2/3 of all sales are V6...I agree most dont care about 1/4 Mile times, but the V6 Camaro looks a whole hell of alot better than the V6 Stang....and its equipped with a 304hp engine that runs the 1/4 along side of the SN-95 V8 Stangs

The V6 always leads in sales, and I think the Camaro will continue to sell at a high rate. Time will tell

Like we said once the Stang gets the new motors the tide will turn especially after the Camaro newness wears off. When the GT gets the 5.0 the V6 will be a new engine too which should be comparable to what the Camaro has.

[blown65]

Originally Posted by SS02

^^^^^2/3 of all sales are V6...I agree most dont care about 1/4 Mile times, but the V6 Camaro looks a whole hell of alot better than the V6 Stang....and its equipped with a 304hp engine that runs the 1/4 along side of the SN-95 V8 Stangs

The V6 always leads in sales, and I think the Camaro will continue to sell at a high rate. Time will tell

again, thats debatable. I personally cant stand the new Camaro, especially its crap ass interior. It cant even begin to compare to the 2010 Mustang inside. The backhalf of the Camaro in person is just terrible.

[SS02]

Originally Posted by 01GTConv

I spent quite a bit of time looking at both cars. In the end there were several factors that made me pick the 2010 Mustang. First, Chevy dealers acted like they were doing you a favor by letting you put down $2000 non refundable, on a full price (or more car) that wouldn't be there for 3-4 months. Some dealers didn't even have allocation and would take money to put you on list, and then would order when they did have allocation (once you moved up their internal list). I went to a few dealers and I just didn't feel comfortable in the transaction...all the GM crap didn't help. Was that dealer even going to be there in 3 months? I felt like saying, "hey, isn't your company is hurting?...show some sign you actually want me to buy a car, and didn't I see this thing in a movie like 3 years ago". I had owned a Mustang before and enjoyed it, so I had some bias going in...but if the Camaro was "the car" I was going to get it.

Now not reading numbers in the brochure...just going by feel, the two cars were super comparable. The interior is great, they both drive well and feel powerful. The Camaro maybe edges out on the new wow factor but when I took my 2010 Mustang to the track it got a lot of attention too.

So, I hit the Ford dealer....and dang they actually want to sell a car. And wow, it is a huge amount cheaper (about $5260 for comparable Camaro I was looking at). And can you believe it, they actually have them on the lot.

So in the end, availability, price, company, dealership on a tested a tweaked Mustang helped win my vote. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Camaro, heck I almost bought one but for me Mustang was the right choice and I am loving it.

Sounds like you went on a true search for the right car for you, and ended up happy. Good stuff and enjoy the stang !!!

[SS02]

Originally Posted by Fast05

They're just having a hard time keeping up with all the old people with wet dreams from the 60s. Once the hype is over this car will most likely see the same fate the last Camaro and GTO did. Most of the general public does not care about 1/4 mile times. It wouldn't surprise me if it sold well ---- for the first year or so. GM just wanted to get this car out before they went under....and now we're all part owners as tax payers. Maybe we should give them insight.....like an interior that doesn't look like my friend's pontiac g5 on the inside.

It seems you think Ford isnt spendind tax payer dollars: As of June 23,2009

Dearborn, Michigan) – Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) will receive $5.9 billion in federal loans to help transform factories across Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, and Ohio to produce more fuel efficient models.

The loan is part of the first batch of commitments from of the Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program.

Facilities impacted by the announcement include Chicago Assembly, Louisville Assembly, Dearborn Assembly, Dearborn Engine, Livonia Transmission, Michigan Assembly, Van Dyke Transmission, Kansas City Assembly, Cleveland Engine, Lima Engine and Sharonville Transmission.

The Department of Energy plans to make additional loans under this program over the next several months to large and small auto manufacturers and parts suppliers up and down the production chain. First appropriated in the fall of 2008, the program will provide about $25 billion in loans to companies making cars and components in US factories that increase fuel economy at least 25 percent above 2005 fuel economy levels.

Nissan also received funds from the first batch of loans ($1.6 billion) to retool its Smyrna, Tennessee factory to build advanced electric automobiles and to build an advanced battery manufacturing facility. And Tesla Motors got $465 million to advance electric vehicle production in California.

For more information about Ford visit Ford Motor Company: Cars, Trucks, SUVs, Hybrids, Parts - Ford

[SS02]

Originally Posted by Wolvrin704

Like we said once the Stang gets the new motors the tide will turn especially after the Camaro newness wears off. When the GT gets the 5.0 the V6 will be a new engine too which should be comparable to what the Camaro has.

True and good point, my point being in my other post that Camaro sales are up and probably do to a potent V6 and Great styling IMO. Im sure the Camaro edges the Mustang in the V6 department do to that, and its new wow factor of course.

Even when the NEW factor goes away, I still feel the Camaro and Mustang will be around for a long time, and yes the New Eco-Boost V6 from FORD is goin to be OUTSTANDING !!! Im excited about it and the new 5.0.......

I like both cars and have owned both Mustangs and Camaro's...I would like to see both stick around for awhile, Everyone else can Scream and Rant MUSTANG or CAMARO RULES....... Kiddy stuff, anyway thats my thoughts on American Muscle back in full swing

[SS02]

Originally Posted by blown65

again, thats debatable. I personally cant stand the new Camaro, especially its crap ass interior. It cant even begin to compare to the 2010 Mustang inside. The backhalf of the Camaro in person is just terrible.

debatable

[Fast05]

Originally Posted by SS02

It seems you think Ford isnt spendind tax payer dollars: As of June 23,2009

Dearborn, Michigan) – Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) will receive $5.9 billion in federal loans to help transform factories across Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, and Ohio to produce more fuel efficient models.

The loan is part of the first batch of commitments from of the Department of Energy's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing program.

Facilities impacted by the announcement include Chicago Assembly, Louisville Assembly, Dearborn Assembly, Dearborn Engine, Livonia Transmission, Michigan Assembly, Van Dyke Transmission, Kansas City Assembly, Cleveland Engine, Lima Engine and Sharonville Transmission.

The Department of Energy plans to make additional loans under this program over the next several months to large and small auto manufacturers and parts suppliers up and down the production chain. First appropriated in the fall of 2008, the program will provide about $25 billion in loans to companies making cars and components in US factories that increase fuel economy at least 25 percent above 2005 fuel economy levels.

Nissan also received funds from the first batch of loans ($1.6 billion) to retool its Smyrna, Tennessee factory to build advanced electric automobiles and to build an advanced battery manufacturing facility. And Tesla Motors got $465 million to advance electric vehicle production in California.

For more information about Ford visit Ford Motor Company: Cars, Trucks, SUVs, Hybrids, Parts - Ford

This is old news and the article says it all, they're taking that money along with others to reconfigure plants to make more efficient vehicles. They're not taking the money to keep from going bankrupt.

[SS02]

Tax dollar is a Tax dollar.........

Both Chrysler and GM both filed bankruptcy.......so its even worse all the money wasted.