[LaserSVT]

Woot woot!!!
Took a few minutes to get the tail set right.
Thanks Rookie, you teh man! I had to slide the tail servo back just a hair and then give a hair more gain on the servo and it does not spin at all. Also had to lengthen the link on the port servo one turn and the foreword/back servo link down one turn and now its perfect!

I was in my car port and the space is small. It is two cars wide but with a 4' deep work bench on one side and a rider mower on the other its only a few feet wider then my Mark VIII. The port is also only a couple feet longer then my Lincoln so really I only had the size of my car as an area to hover it.

I spent the rest of the battery hovering it about 2 cm off the ground. I had to set it down and catch my breath about 5 times as the wind gusted. I could correct the gust and have it still again but its such a small space I got nervous. But then it started to fly weird and I looked at my radio to realize I was hovering for 12 minutes. I killed the battery and not the heli.
I slapped in my new battery and went back at it. I hovered an inch off the ground and kept it pretty still for 2 minutes before I set it down to settle down. Every time it was sliding toward the bench or mower I was holding my breath as I corrected. I was doing really well with not over correcting too.
I eventually brought the gear up to about knee level and was just as happy as could be. After 8 and a half minutes the battery was dead (first charge) and I set her back down.

No wrecks or even touches of anything!
I did notice both batteries got pretty damn warm. You could hold them but they were still pretty warm. The ESC was barley warm at all and the motor you could touch with no problem as well, it stayed very cool. Is that normal for the battery to get warmer then the ESC or motor?

[RookieOne]

Great Job. Glad to hear you had a positive experience.......quite a rush...aint it!?

Your running your batteries too hard is the simple answer.

Long answer :

This image is a typical LiPo discharge curve :



The numbers relate to a single cell, but the trend line is identical to a 3 cell pack. A full pack will be 12.6 volts. The average voltage under load will be around 11.1 volts. The minimum voltage you ever want the pack to get to is ~9 volts, under load.

When a LiPo discharges, there is an intial voltage drop, and a ending voltage drop. The curve between these drops is the average voltage, and the better the pack, the flatter the line.

LiPos generate heat during discharge, it's generated as a function of current being pulled. Pull 1 amp out of your pack, and it will never get hot. Pull 40 amps out of it, and it will get REALLY hot. Your Heli is trying to pull a certain amount of POWER. As the voltage of the battery drops, the Current has to increase to make up that POWER. So, as you get into the end curve, where the voltage drops fast, the current is going to rise fast...and also the temp will as well.

Pushing a battery into this part of the discharge curve often will result in short lifespans for the packs. Simple as that, heat kills LiPos. The rule of thumb is that you only want to discharge 80% of the pack at a time. That will keep you from falling into that end curve, and limit the heat.

Easiest method for what your doing now? Get a timer and limit yourself to a certain amount of time. If your killing a pack at 8 minutes, only fly it for 6 minutes. If you have a volt meter, another method that you can use is to fly for a chuck of time and then let the battery rest, using a volt meter, check the voltages of the individual cells...a battery discharged to 80% has a resting voltage of ~3.5-3.6 volts a cell.

Depending on the setup, headspeed and the components, yeah, you can get batteries warmer than everything else. Typically, in my setup, the motor gets the hottest (~150-170F) the battery is second (~120-130F) and the ESC is last (~110). But I'm running more powerful batteries, and running hotter motors than yours, I'd bet.

Ideally, with a brushless setup, you really want the setup mechanically geared to let the electronics run as close to 100% as possible. They are most efficient at 100%, and as the get less efficient, they increase operating temperature.


Glad to hear your making progress...and it sounds like your really taking your time keeping it in control.......Congrats!!!

Let me guess, besides holding your breath, your sphichter was tight enough to make diamonds....right!?!?!

It's quite a rush to realize you have complete (or at least...SOME ) control and end a flight without damage......

Welcome to the addiction.

[LaserSVT]

So are you saying I need to decrease my pitch a little cause its too much for that head speed? At 65% power it is making 5-6* of pitch and by half stick its hovering an inch off the ground. So it seems if I get it to a higher power level before it hits the 5* pitch that it would drop the load a little and maybe not drain the battery so fast?
In hopes to keep them good I am only charging at .55 mah now and the first pack has been on it for 2:45 now and still isnt done. Its a 2200 and I figured just shy of three hours if I didnt over drain it. Im gonna go grab my meter and see what the other pack is at.

[RookieOne]

Originally Posted by LaserSVT

So are you saying I need to decrease my pitch a little cause its too much for that head speed? At 65% power it is making 5-6* of pitch and by half stick its hovering an inch off the ground. So it seems if I get it to a higher power level before it hits the 5* pitch that it would drop the load a little and maybe not drain the battery so fast?
In hopes to keep them good I am only charging at .55 mah now and the first pack has been on it for 2:45 now and still isnt done. Its a 2200 and I figured just shy of three hours if I didnt over drain it. Im gonna go grab my meter and see what the other pack is at.

No, not exactly.

Electric power systems, especially on helis, are very complicated in terms of what constitutes power draw. I have a data logging system that I typically use for several flights when I get a new heli, or change significantly a setup, so I can see EXACTLY what is happening on the power train.

The amount of power your consuming at any given moment is going to be a function of several things - Throttle setting, efficiency of the ESC, efficiency of the Motor, Quality of the battery, efficiency of the mechanical setup, and gearing of the headspeed. Any one of those will drastically change the results.

Typically, most people are flying a 2200 3S pack ~5 minutes with a mildly aggressive setup. Those that are working on just hovering and are still in a normal, tame setup see around 7-8 minutes.

Charging at 1C or lower (2.2 amps or lower) is best for the battery. You won't really see much benefit charging lower than 2.2amps, but you won't hurt it either. Being kind during charging is half the game...the other half is controlling the heat during discharge.

The discharge rating of the battery is one way. If your flying 15C batteries and it's getting hot, a 20C won't get as hot in the same flight.....a 25C won't get as warm as a 20C, and a 35C won't get as warm as a 25C...etc. However, the higher the C the higher the capable discharge and the more powerful the heli seems, which typically leads to flying harder and then all bets are off.....

Your best bet for keeping the battery temp down is to limit your flight time to 6-8 minutes...until you really can dial in what your discharge is over the longer flights.

How many teeth on the motor pinion again? What was the throttle curve on that transmitter set to again?

The relationship between power consumption and headspeed and pitch tends to be quite unique to each heli. There is a point where spinning faster for a given pitch will actually decrease the required power. The bigger point is that ESC's are most efficient between 85-100% of throttle, so if your hovering lower than that, you may see some decreased power draw by bumping the speed up a bit......but I'm not too sure how tied-together your curves are on that radio. In my normal curve, for my big guys, I typically have my throttle coming up to ~75%-80% by mid stick.

To get comfortable with the collective, and to ease into flying in idle up mode (stunt) you should really begin in Normal mode by having the curves setup in a manner where you are hovering at about 75% collective. That's where it will be when your in idle up (0* at center stick with + and - pitch on the stick) One thing that I found difficult when transitioning to idle up was getting used to having to make SMALLER movements than I did in normal, cause I had it setup that I was hovering right around mid stick.

Keep up the practice and just try hard not to get ahead of yourself. It's hard to fight that voice in your head saying "This is boring, I'm ready for the big stuff"

Get the tail-in hovering mastered and then move to learning the rest of the orientations (tail in 45*'s (left and right), Side in Nose in 45*'s, Nose in)

And I promise you, if you get comfortable with tail in, you will start sweating again with Nose in.... That's where you begin learning how to unconsciously start switching your inputs depending on orientation...left becomes right, right becomes left.....forward is backwards, backwards is forwards.....

Becomes very important when you move into inverted flight and backwards flight.

Always more to learn!!!!!

[LaserSVT]

When I was hovering yesterday the direction of the tail didnt bother me, never has. I am a child of the video game age and have been good with thumb coordination in different viewing aspects. Come to think of it I dont think I had the tail pointing at me more then a minute.

In a bit I will go back in the car port and do some more low hovering untill I am completly comfertable with how it handles before I go backout in the field to fly it.

[LaserSVT]

Woot woot! Killed two more batteries without dammage...much. The first battery I was hovering about a foot off the ground and went to trim it a hair right and the main blades just kissed the trash can. They didnt break or even move cause it was barley any contact but it did take a little red paint off the tips. Guess I have to rebalence them. I ran it for 6 minutes fly time and then landed it before and power difference became evident.
The second battery as soon as it was a foot or so in the air it stayed there for 5 minutes straight. No landing and no impacts. Half way through the pack I was able to keep it in a 2' circle. At just over 5 minutes my phone rang and it startled me cause it was in my shirt pocket and I knocked the heli out of shape but controlled it quick enough where it landed fine and then took back off to hover for another minute before shutting it down.
Batteries are staying cooler and the motor is just a tad hotter then the pack now.

I am thuroughly addicted! I love the way it sounds as its hovering there! Very cool.

[LaserSVT]

My helicopter brokted.
Just starting to take off and the tail fin I had to glue together before just snapped and went into the tail rotors. Busted both links and snapped both screws in the hub. Landed just find but damn, that really sux.
Just going to get an Align tail assembly thats complete. That way I can use the Align links and tail fin should they break again.
Was the damndest thing. Hovering about 1' up and then I hear POP POP and the heli starts to spin. Wasnt near anything eaither, plenty of space. Oh well, its frustraiting but fun when it all works right.

[mackey]

Hey I have one of these!
I have an EXI 450 with metal Tail setup.

DX6i
Align ESC
Align 450 Motor

Its a bitch to fly.

Still learning myself. Seems like it is attracted to the earth.

[LaserSVT]

Originally Posted by mackey

Hey I have one of these!
I have an EXI 450 with metal Tail setup.

DX6i
Align ESC
Align 450 Motor

Its a bitch to fly.

Still learning myself. Seems like it is attracted to the earth.

Yup, planes want to fly. H3licopters want to crash.

Just when I think I have the flying part working in my favor it goes and does something off the wall. I was just gonna buy new links and a new hub but they no longer sell the links for the Shark tail and they only carry the tail fin in silver now. So if I switch to the T-rex tail I can get black CF tail fins and links are every where.
Just means I cant fly tomorrow on my only day off. Hopefully I can get it in time for next weekend.

[RookieOne]

Don't waste any money on CF tail fins for a 450. Not worth it. You can pick up Fiberglass fins for signfincantly less, and plastic ones even cheaper.

CF tail rotor blades aren't worth it either. About the best tail rotor blades you can get for a 450 are KBDD blades. Cheap too, ~$3 a set. They are light, rigid, and bright colored, so you can see them. Trust me, they hold better and stop a tail faster than any stock Align blade I've tried....and I've tried them all.

There are only 2 types of crashes for helis. Mechanical failure, or pilot failure. Mechanical failures happen all the time to all pilots. Hell, I saw a buddy dump a Trex 600 with a nice flybarless setup this morning because he lost a linkage in the head during a tic-toc. Not sure the full damage, but I'm sure he will have it flying again next weekend. Granted, he does also own a hobby shop.......

Bout the best you can do is be vigilant with pre-flight checks and post-flight checks. Parts rarely fail without giving you signs...weather visual, noise during flight, or flying different. The trick is to recognize them, and that's not an easy thing to do. Hell, I had 2 helis go down a few weeks ago (Trex 600, and Compass Atom 500) both because of Receiver shutdown. Turns out it was a loose connection in both cases that I didn't catch.....It happens.

Sounds like your progressing nicely. Better than I did, if your already hovering a pack comfortably. Just keep at it with a focused manner and you'll be cruising around before you know it.

I had a great morning today.....got out with 4 of my helis and got nearly an hour of flight time with them at the field. Got to see plenty of other pilots flying as well. Got some new batteries for the Trex 600, and that REALLY woke it up. Much more power......looking at the data from the logger, I'm just touching 2.75 hp when punching it......not too bad for a 8lb heli.

Good Luck!!!

[DocG2828]

Waits....waits for his brushless esc.....

[LaserSVT]

Oil well, I already ordered the CF tail fin. Mine took allot of abuse before giving up and it was only $5
I just like it all to match even though it is far from it no.
Bright yellow cannopy, CF frame, Red rotors, GM head and tail boom, blue/silver aluminum tail unit, blue main gear and black autorotation gear. Its getting to be quite colorful.
While the canopy and blades will change it will prolly always have a grey head and blue tail unit though which kinda bugs me but oh well.

[DocG2828]

Ok OK....I think I need some Rookie advice!

I was about to install a brushless setup but figured I'd burn a battery on the old setup. My heli is more messed up than I thought.

Issues 1) spins like a mofo! I did some close inspection and realized the rudder servo was not returning to position in a quick manner. The first time it would, but when I keep running the servo from left to right.....the return trip slows. I've already replaced the servo once with another stocker. Should I upgrade? Any suggestions on a good servo for a rudder on a HBKII?

Issue 2) I held her up in my hand level while letting the blades spin, way out of track! LOL. Apparently my newer blades were not in track as well as the originals. I'm gonna have to figure out how to track em I suppose.


So should I fix this stuff before swapping to brushless? I'm thinking this might minimize complications of adding more possible tuning.


Oh yeah...forgot. My motor was loose when I went to fly today. I just snugged it up without any actual techie tweaking. I know I may have had it too tight against the gear....but the servo was acting up before that I think. Possibly had it too tight, but would that increase the headspeed and thus the tail speed enough to burn a servo? I don't think so.
Advice?

[DocG2828]

Bill.....go fly your coax man! I'm having way better luck with that one!

[LaserSVT]

Funny you mention that. I am bringing it with me to work tomorow.

[DocG2828]

Originally Posted by LaserSVT

Funny you mention that. I am bringing it with me to work tomorow.

I was flying it earlier.....wish it had more forward speed. I realized I've improved though since its so sensitive to the slightest breeze. 2mph wind and I head straight into it and it barely moves. I've actually gotten good at going diaganol and using multiple directions to move her around. I was cruising around my front yard and moving on all 6 channels with her at once. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but I figure that type of control of a CX will only help me on my CP.I have a neighbor a couple houses down that I witnessed flying a fixed pitch birdy. First flight and he had it about 30 feet in the air. You could tell he had no clue. Slammed it into the side of a house!

[DocG2828]

Ok, what is a washout set?Found em on sale for my heli on Helidirect for like 2.50 and normally 4x as much. About to order a couple just in case even thought I don't know what they are.

[LaserSVT]

Originally Posted by DocG2828

I was flying it earlier.....wish it had more forward speed. I realized I've improved though since its so sensitive to the slightest breeze. 2mph wind and I head straight into it and it barely moves. I've actually gotten good at going diaganol and using multiple directions to move her around. I was cruising around my front yard and moving on all 6 channels with her at once. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but I figure that type of control of a CX will only help me on my CP.I have a neighbor a couple houses down that I witnessed flying a fixed pitch birdy. First flight and he had it about 30 feet in the air. You could tell he had no clue. Slammed it into the side of a house!

You only have 4 channels, not six.

[DocG2828]

Originally Posted by LaserSVT

You only have 4 channels, not six.

Ummm....huh?Tech my is 6 channel. Yeah, 4 directions on the sticks. The flip switch to 3d is a 5th channel...and I forget what the 6th is. But my heli is a 6ch. Altho right now is a NO channel as it sits

[RookieOne]

Any CP helicopter is a 5 channel heli:

1 - Pitch
2 - Roll
3 - Yaw
4 - Throttle
5 - Collective Pitch

If you want to be able to manipulate the gyro gain from your TX, you need a 6 channel radio.

A fixed pitch Heli is typically 4 channels or less...


Washout - the washout arms are the arms on your main shaft that are attached to the swash plate in two spots and catch the phasing pins in the head. The washout arms are what primarily keep the swash spinning relative to the main head. Don't tend to wear out.....worst thing that happens is that the holes for the pins get a bit wallowed out and add to the slop of the head. But with a plastic head like the HBKII slop is inherent.

Issue 2 - Tracking. YES. you need to make sure they are in track before switching over. The brushless setup will have more power and more headspeed. Tracking becomes more of an issue the faster the head is spinning....so it is best to get your tracking right before spinning full speed.....though, blades can be off a little bit at a lower speed and clean up a bit at higher speeds as well, depending on the head mechanics

Issue 1 - If you have a Heading Hold Gyro (Black E-Sky one) then the servo won't return to center quickly. It will hang and creep back if the heli isn't moving. So if you have a HH, thats normal. Similar to Lazer's original tail issue, if its spinning violently, it's more than likely the gyro is reversed.

Your servo isn't going to burn out as a function of the tail speed. The HBKII has a main:tail ratio that is a bit too low to start with. Ideally, you need to upgrade the tail setup with a 43T mod ( I believe if you just search for HBKII 43T Tail mod it will pop). That will increase the tail speed and thus increase the tail authority. Yes, the E-sky servos are junk. But they will do fine for basic hovering and slow flight.....just don't try any inverted, or fast backwards flight......

Simple check again, power up the heli, hold it up and rotate it quickly counter clockwise. If the gyro is correct, it should be pushing the tail slider OUT when the heli is rotating counterclockwise. If not, the gyro needs to be reversed.

Loose Motor) Gear mesh on these things is tricky and can be critical. Too tight and the friction can cause power loss, excess heat in components and even lead to stripped gears. Too loose and you can strip a gear too easily, flex in the frame can lead to loss in power..etc

Simple trick...use a piece of paper between the gears. Adjust the mesh and then run a small piece of paper through the mesh. You want the paper to have nice creases from the gear teeth, but no cuts or punch through (too tight) if it is just "wavy" without creases it's too loose.

Think that's about it.......

[LaserSVT]

Originally Posted by DocG2828

Ummm....huh?Tech my is 6 channel. Yeah, 4 directions on the sticks. The flip switch to 3d is a 5th channel...and I forget what the 6th is. But my heli is a 6ch. Altho right now is a NO channel as it sits

You said you were flying the coaxial and they are only 4 channels.... dooface.

[Kilgore Trout]

I have been wanting to get a small helicopter for some time.

Tell me what I should buy based on the following:
-for beginners, myself and my 12 year old son
-must cost less than $150 or so
-must not be unpossible to fly

Thanks!

[LaserSVT]

I would get an Heli Max CF or an AXE CX micro. The AXE CX can be had for under $90 and they are super stable. I have had mine a year now and still love it. I am at work and just killed two batteries flying it around my office. Buy extra blades and main shafts cause thats all that really breakes. I could even show you a simple mod that keeps you from replacing landing gear and the main shaft.
I got sick of it so I epoxied a pice of zip tie across the bottom of the battey holder and have not broken the gear since then even crashing from 50+'
The main shaft breaks the little arms that hold the blades so what I did was drill them out and put in a piece of large paper clip and now that part does not break anymore eaither.

Very stable and easy to fly but it cant be flown outside if there is ANY wind. They are an indoor heli.

[RookieOne]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I have been wanting to get a small helicopter for some time.

Tell me what I should buy based on the following:
-for beginners, myself and my 12 year old son
-must cost less than $150 or so
-must not be unpossible to fly

Thanks!

I tend to make 2 recommendations to anyone interested in getting into the hobby, and it's based on what individuals want out of the hobby.

If your looking for a toy to play with from time to time, I tend to recommend a coaxial helicopter like an Heli-Max Axe or a Eflight CX2. They are stupid easy to fly, very robust and rugged and fullfill the basics of what "toy" should be, easy to use, reliable, don't require any tweaking or real maintence.

If someone is looking to get seriously into the hobby, with intentions of a higher performance machine, I tend to shy away from a CoAxial as a first step. There is definitely benefit from starting with one, but there is a world of difference between a coaxial and all other helis. For these individuals, depending on budget, I recommend starting with quality Flight Sim like Real Flight before moving to far forward.

Used Real Flights (with a plastic transmitter) can be had for ~$100 through Ebay and Craigslist.

Beyond that, I tend to reccommend getting a starter heli, typically a 450 with a good radio.

One thing that I try to make sure to stress is the money-pit that this hobby is. New pilots HAVE to understand that there is a steep learning curve with the more advanced machines that includes massive frustration and significant expense. You really can't do this hobby, at the more advanced level, half-assed. It is going to cost you money, continually.

Ask Lazer. From my count, he is just about double his initial cost by buying replacement parts and batteries.


So, if your wanting to get your feet wet with something that is straightforward, cheap, self contained and robust...I'd go with a CoAxial. Eflite MCX, Eflite CX2, E-Sky Lama, Heli Max CF..etc


If your wanting to really get into it with higher performance aspirations, I'd reccommend a good Sim, and/or a starter heli in the 400 class size (Blade 400, Trex 400, EXI 450, Copter X, Exceed...etc)

[LaserSVT]

The man speaks the truth. I have spent an additional $160 in spare parts for my 450 size heli. Granted I have 4-5 spares of all the most common parts to break and I have upgraded to some better parts.
My Axe CX I have had a year and have spent about $70 in spare parts but that was because I was flying it like an idiot before I knew how to fly it and over half of those parts have been from trying to fly it outside in wind and watching it his 60+' and then go into a tree or something.
Great heli for a beginner though.




Anywho Rookie, my office is just to perfect for a heli and I want something small but quicker then my CX so I was looking at a Novus CP and like the idea of a tiny collective pitch heli to learn on that has cheap parts and doesnt break much when it hits stuff cause it dont weigh nothing. Problem is I dont really want to spend another $200 for a heli. I just stopped at the hobby shop here and the owner let me fly his Blade SMR?? Little super tiny heli with a tail motor. I really liked it! Much faster then the Axe and was just a blast to fly. I cant get over how micro the battery is! Its smaller then a AAA! I think I am gonna get on cause thats closer to my 3D machine and would allow for better practice then the Axe would dont you think?