[sphinx]

Tim Geithner's getting ready to shovel more taxpayer money
down the rat hole, this time to GMAC.

GMAC, in case you're in understandable denial, has been bailed out twice already.

And now Tim Geithner wants to shovel another $2.8 billion in.

What is the US taxpayer getting in exchange for all these GMAC bailouts?

Preferred stock.

Why are we getting preferred stock, which is neither a claim on the future upside of the company's equity, nor a senior debt security that will be completely repaid in the event that taxpayers finally get mad as hell and won't take it anymore?

Because Tim Geithner is worried that if he makes the folks who voluntarily lent money to GMAC -- the bondholders -- lose so much as a cent, the entire US economy will collapse.

If Tim Geithner feels it is absolutely critical that he shovel more taxpayer money into this paper-shredder or else even fewer people will buy "the new GM"'s cars, or if Tim Geithner concludes that now that he has already put so much taxpayer money on the line that he has to keep shoveling good money after bad to postpone the inevitable until after he has taken his job at Goldman Sachs, then there is presumably nothing that anyone will be able to do to stop him. Tim Geithner developed his bail-out-everyone strategy two years ago, before he even took over Treasury, and he'll presumably be damned if he's going to modify that strategy now.

But if we raise enough of a fuss, maybe we can force Tim to reconsider the terms so we don't get completely screwed again.

Instead of a preferred security, which is subordinate to all GMAC debt, we want a SENIOR BOND. A bond that will be paid off FIRST in the event that Tim finally gets the boot and GMAC collapses.

We also want a big helping of WARRANTS to compensate us for the risk we're taking. In addition to interest, we deserve upside--the same upside that any private-market savior would demand.

How about it, Tim?

Please?

Tim Geithner, Don't You Dare Bail Out GMAC Again


If we don't pass the stimulus bill, the economy will collapse.
If we don't pass the bank bailout bill, the economy will collapse.
If we don't pass the auto bailout bill, the ecomomy will collapse.
If we don't pass the finance bailout bill, the economy will collapse.
If we dont pass the healthcare bill, your grandmother will die.

Anyone else seeing a pattern?

[jikelly]

Originally Posted by sphinx

Tim Geithner, Don't You Dare Bail Out GMAC Again


If we don't pass the stimulus bill, the economy will collapse.
If we don't pass the bank bailout bill, the economy will collapse.
If we don't pass the auto bailout bill, the ecomomy will collapse.
If we don't pass the finance bailout bill, the economy will collapse.
If we dont pass the healthcare bill, your grandmother will die.

Anyone else seeing a pattern?

They passed the stimulus bill and the economy didn't collapse.
They passed the bank bailout bill and the economy didn't collapse
They passed the auto bailout bill and the economy didn't collapse
They passed the finance bill and the economy didn't collapse

See a pattern here?

Now this last one is different I think you forgot something.

If they don't pass the healthcare bill, your grandmother will die and you will be bankrupted by increasing medical costs.

[Dusstbuster]

Originally Posted by jikelly

They passed the stimulus bill and the economy didn't collapse.
They passed the bank bailout bill and the economy didn't collapse
They passed the auto bailout bill and the economy didn't collapse
They passed the finance bill and the economy didn't collapse

See a pattern here?

Now this last one is different I think you forgot something.

If they don't pass the healthcare bill, your grandmother will die and you will be bankrupted by increasing medical costs.

Problem with your logic:

Economy wouldn't have collapsed if the stimulus hadn't been passed...

[jikelly]

Originally Posted by Dusstbuster

Problem with your logic:

Economy wouldn't have collapsed if the stimulus hadn't been passed...

Thank God we will never know if you're right.

[strtrcr50]

Originally Posted by jikelly

Thank God we will never know if you're right.

Actually, we do. Seeing as how very little of the porkulus money was spent. Although, those 30 jobs per state prob made a big difference.

[Dusstbuster]

Originally Posted by jikelly

Thank God we will never know if you're right.

It's actually pretty obvious that I am right...we've spent nearly nothing, talked all fluff and sprinkles, and the economy for the most part is turning around on its own.

Like we've discussed before, Obama has just set it up so he can't fail.

[jikelly]

Originally Posted by Dusstbuster

It's actually pretty obvious that I am right...we've spent nearly nothing, talked all fluff and sprinkles, and the economy for the most part is turning around on its own.

Like we've discussed before, Obama has just set it up so he can't fail.

Oh Obama can fail. Many republicans are working on that right now.

And you're wrong about the fluff and sprinkles. Why do you think the powers that be started screaming for a bank bailout long before Obama was elected?

Please read.

The Real Bailout
Some bankers now have the attitude of, What's the problem? The crisis is over. Get out of our way and let us get back to business. This is especially true of those who don't owe the government any money. The conventional thinking is that the $700 billion of Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) money was the beginning and will be the end of the bailout. TARP lent $238 billion to more than 680 banks, according to SNL Financial, a research firm; 44 of these banks have repaid a total of $71 billion. Thus, there's less than $170 billion, a relative pittance, of TARP money invested in banks.

So when the likes of Goldman Sachs or JPMorgan Chase, which were well capitalized and well run, say they didn't really need TARP money in the first place, that's more or less accurate. However, that doesn't mean that Goldman, JPMorgan and every other bank in the country weren't bailed out. Had the world economy melted down and more giant institutions failed, even strong firms like Goldman would have gone under. In July, Goldman acknowledged this, more or less, when it graciously — yes, graciously — paid a full price of $1.1 billion to redeem stock-purchase warrants it gave the government for lending it $10 billion of TARP money. (See pictures of the stock market crash of 1929.)

Indeed, these banks ought to acknowledge that the government saved them. For starters, they ought to stop gouging the vulnerable among us with overdraft fees and credit-card games. "Reform" is supposed to take effect early next year, but banks have accelerated their gouging since the legislation passed.

In a more macro way, Goldman and Morgan Stanley in particular were facing the equivalent of a bank run in September 2008, as fear-stricken hedge funds for which they were prime brokers pulled out their assets. The firms would have been toast if the government hadn't allowed them to become bank holding companies overnight, giving them access to almost unlimited funds that the Federal Reserve makes available to banks.

So, you see, the real bailout wasn't TARP. It was lending and guarantee programs from the Fed and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. The Fed had a mere three borrowing programs before the crisis started in the summer of 2007, when two Bear Stearns hedge funds failed. At the height of the bailout, there were no fewer than 13 programs. The New York Fed had to post them on its website sideways, using teensy-weensy type, so they would print out on a single sheet of paper.

Main Street has paid a price for the ultra-low interest rates the Fed has kept in place to encourage banks to lend and to keep commerce flowing. Cheap money is nice for lenders and borrowers — but it's devastating for savers, especially for retirees who use interest income to supplement Social Security. If you had $500,000 stashed away — not a bad nest egg — you could earn a no-risk $20,000 to $25,000 annually (before taxes) two years ago buying bank CDs or short-term Treasury securities. Now you earn less than $5,000 in an average one-year CD, about $2,000 in a one-year Treasury. This offers retirees unpleasant choices: reduce their standard of living, eat into their principal or take greater risks to restore the lost income. (Watch TIME's video "Uninsured Again.")

Outrage at Wall Street: After Bailout, Bonuses Rise -- Printout -- TIME

[Dusstbuster]

Preventing a major bank meltdown might be one thing, the Stimulus on the other hand is worthless. Government involvement should be minimal at most, not $1+ Trillion. Sorry Kelly, while it might have softened a blow by a small margin, all this Governmental intervention hasn't helped or solved anything drastically.

Just like you say "prove that it hasn't helped" I say prove that it has...prove that these places NEEDED the money to survive and that this money HAD to be spent to prevent a major meltdown. You can't, and guess what, as history has shown, it doesn't help. The markets recover on their own as they always have and always will. Does there need to be oversight? Yes. Does the Goverment have more than oversight? Yes. Does the Government efficiently oversee things? NO.

Will any of this change how you feel? No. Will anything you say change how others feel? No.

[jikelly]

I'll say again that unregulated capitalist markets are unstable.

We were headed for a major severe depression (probably a world wide depression) without the injection of funds. Sure we would have eventually recovered from bank closers and the loss of the US auto industry, but that would have been a painful loss and a lot of people would be on the street. I'm going to bet it would have resulted in greater government involvement and expenditures than we have now just to keep people from starving.

[rbohm]

Originally Posted by jikelly

They passed the stimulus bill and the economy didn't collapse.
They passed the bank bailout bill and the economy didn't collapse
They passed the auto bailout bill and the economy didn't collapse
They passed the finance bill and the economy didn't collapse

See a pattern here?

Now this last one is different I think you forgot something.

If they don't pass the healthcare bill, your grandmother will die and you will be bankrupted by increasing medical costs.

Originally Posted by jikelly

I'll say again that unregulated capitalist markets are unstable.

We were headed for a major severe depression (probably a world wide depression) without the injection of funds. Sure we would have eventually recovered from bank closers and the loss of the US auto industry, but that would have been a painful loss and a lot of people would be on the street. I'm going to bet it would have resulted in greater government involvement and expenditures than we have now just to keep people from starving.

i agree that unregulated capitalism is not a good thing, but then neither is over regulated capitalism. as for the various bailouts, i give credit to the tarp fund for preventing a financial collapse, only because it freed up the credit markets a bit. the other bailouts though and stimulus package are not only unnecessary, but will push the economy into hyperinflation, high interest rates, and generally down further into depression. what should have happened in regards to the auto industry is that the government should never have loaned money to gm and chrysler, and then helped them through bankruptcy, and government/union take over of those companies. these companies should have gone into chapter 11 long before any government money was given to them, and let the chips fall where they may. as it is now we the people are on the hook for $50+ billion that will likely never be repaid.

the tarp money has already seen some profit.

in the end our government is spending far too much money right now, and that will only ruin the economy in the long run. i mean when china, france, and germany all tell the US that we have to stop spending money like its free, and when the world is starting to make noises about replacing the US dollar as the world currency standard, you know we are in trouble.

as for health insurance, the bills in front of congress right now are disasters in the making, and will only drive the cost of health care up. you cant reduce costs by raising taxes on everyone and everything, and you cant recude teh deficit by hiding things, and by using creative accounting. if private business did what the government is doing, not only would that business be bankrupt, but the ceo and others running the business would be in jail on various felony charges.

[jikelly]

Funny that China and them would bitch about the US spending money like it's free. Thay had their own bailouts. Germany even did a CFC type deal to get people buying cars.

China's bailout was massive and apparently effective. Their economy is on its way back.

They are just wishing we'd let our own industries fail so they can domonate the markets.

Posted via Mobile Device

[Venom351R]

The direction our economy is going now it will collapse.

Back in the 70's the government printed a lot of money, it was to much money in the system it caused inflation (inflation usually takes 2 years to take hold after mass spending). Over all there was 13% excess of money in our system so for example if you took out a loan for $100 it would cost you $120 to pay it back and that extra $20 was sent back to the reserve and destroyed to try and pull back the amount of extra money in our system. Back in the 70's the 13% excess amount of money led to a interest rate hike of 20%. Currently in the past year we have spent such a staggering amount of money that we have flooded the system with 120% in excess money. If rates went up by 20% over an influx of 13% to much money what do you think its going to be like w/ an excess amount of 120% currently in our system?

Can you see whats happening here kelly? We cant keep borrowing money, we cant keep printing money. Its going to cause our dollar to bottom out and or economy to collapse. Iceland had a GDP of 5% in a time frame of only 4 years it all went to hell and now their currency is worthless. It can happen and it will happen if this continues.

[rbohm]

Originally Posted by jikelly

Funny that China and them would bitch about the US spending money like it's free. Thay had their own bailouts. Germany even did a CFC type deal to get people buying cars.

China's bailout was massive and apparently effective. Their economy is on its way back.

They are just wishing we'd let our own industries fail so they can domonate the markets.

Posted via Mobile Device

one thing you fail to take into account is that china is right now a creditor nation, and we are a debtor nation. also china is creating a business friendly environment, and their manufacturing base in increasing, where as ours in decreasing. they have a trade surplus, we have a trade deficit. also china has tons of cash available where as we have essentially none. we are also trying to monetize our debt, which in the end is only going to cause high inflation, and high interest rates. china has lowered taxes, we are raising them.

in the end china is making the right moves to improve their economy, and we are making all the wrong moves.