Surging Idle problem found

I found my surging idle thanks to your notes regarding MAF turbulence.

Although my CAI was in fender well it appears turbulence was ocurrred due to design of filter. Filter is a cheap cone filter that can be purchased as pep boys, autozone etc.and has the top of cone open (K&N does is closed) this must have caused turbulance at MAF sensors. We resolved problem by first moving it into engine compartment then taping end with duct tape. I will be replacing this filter with a K&N and put it back in the fender soon.

Thanks for your insight.
 
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Okay, haven't seen my problem on here yet. I just bought a '92 LX HB. It is cammed, and BEEFY! It's only died at startup once, but it was really cold out. The problem is when the engine is warm sometimes it will jump to 1500 rpms when it's idling. Most of the time it idles fine (right around 800 rpm's, but it comes down to idle slowly. Anyway, I am going to tear into it this weeked. Please advise, as I really don't want to just tear intoit without some sort of guidance.
 
347lxvert said:
i was going through the checklist, will my car give out error codes if the check engine light is not on, because my idle surges intermittently and the light does not come on, but my car is running super rich.

thanks in advance

You can get trouble codes without the cel coming on.

Always start with the codes.

Good luck
 
347lxvert said:
i was just told by autozone that 96 and newer were the only mustangs that you could get the codes from w/o the CEL being on, any ideas?

On the A9L in the 5.0 mustangs (fox bodies), the computer can throw codes, but never trigger the cel. I assume this is what you mean? For example, when the O2s start to get out of range, the cel will not trigger (atleast in most cases).
Or, are you trying to pull codes from the computer without using the cel light?

Personally, I would not be too quick to trust the word of a guy who works at a parts store. Don't get me wrong, I have met several parts counter clerks who really knew their stuff. However, the vast majority seem to have very little experience and are still learning.
All I am saying is that you need to consider the source. For example when the Ford dealership that blew the fuse in my stereo while performing a brake inspection, told me that it wasn't their fault and that the stereo was not installed properly, I knew they had no idea what they were talking about.

To pull the codes do a search for responses posted by jrichker (it may even be in this thread). He has a very detailed post on how to pull the codes, even if you do not have a code reader.

just my opinion though
jason
 
subcreep said:
Okay, haven't seen my problem on here yet. I just bought a '92 LX HB. It is cammed, and BEEFY! It's only died at startup once, but it was really cold out. The problem is when the engine is warm sometimes it will jump to 1500 rpms when it's idling. Most of the time it idles fine (right around 800 rpm's, but it comes down to idle slowly. Anyway, I am going to tear into it this weeked. Please advise, as I really don't want to just tear intoit without some sort of guidance.
See my comments in the first post in the sticky about a faulty TPS.
 
I have an E cammed car, and it likes to run very rich and stumble sometimes when i am hard on the throttle. It also idles rich. i guess i need to check the IAC, but i did dump the codes. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about codes 44 and 94? any help on these would be greatly appreciated
 
Green93Hatch said:
I have an E cammed car, and it likes to run very rich and stumble sometimes when i am hard on the throttle. It also idles rich. i guess i need to check the IAC, but i did dump the codes. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about codes 44 and 94? any help on these would be greatly appreciated
See the first post in this Sticky and Ranchero5.0's comments about what to do for idle problems on cars with aftermarket camshafts.


Codes 94 & 44 - AIR system inoperative - Air Injection. Check vacuum lines for leaks, & cracks. Disconnect the big hose from smog pump: with the engine running you should feel air output. Reconnect the smog pump hose & apply vacuum to the first vacuum controlled valve: Its purpose is to either dump the pump's output to the atmosphere or pass it to the next valve. The next vacuum controlled valve directs the air to either the cylinder heads when the engine is cold or to the catalytic converter when the engine is warm. Disconnect the big hoses from the back side of the vacuum controlled valve and start the engine. Apply vacuum to the valve and see if the airflow changes from one hose to the next.
The two electrical controlled vacuum valves mounted on the rear of the passenger side wheelwell turn the vacuum on & off under computer control. Check to see that both valves have +12 volts on the red wire. Then ground the white/red wire and the first solenoid should open and pass vacuum. Do the same thing to the light green/black wire on the second solenoid and it should open and pass vacuum.

Remember that the computer does not source power for any actuator or relay, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.

The computer provides the ground to complete the circuit to power the solenoid valve that turns the vacuum on or off. The computer is located under the passenger side kick panel. Remove the kick panel & the cover over the computer wiring connector pins. Check Pin 38 Solenoid valve #1 that provides vacuum to the first Thermactor control valve for a switch from 12-14 volts to 1 volt or less. Do the same with pin 32 solenoid valve #2 that provides vacuum to the second Thermactor control valve. Starting the engine with the computer jumpered to self test mode will cause all the actuators to toggle on and off. If after doing this and you see no switching of the voltage on and off, you can start testing the wiring for shorts to ground and broken wiring. An Ohm check to ground with the computer connector disconnected & the solenoid valves disconnected should show open circuit between the pin 32 and ground and again on pin 38 and ground. In like manner, there should be less than 1 ohm between pin 32 and solenoid valve #2 and pin 38 & Solenoid valve #1.

If after checking the resistance of the wiring & you are sure that there are no wiring faults, start looking at the solenoid valves. If you disconnect them, you can jumper power & ground to them to verify operation. Power & ground supplied should turn on the vacuum flow, remove either one and the vacuum should stop flowing.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif
 
Have read these but still have questions

I have an 88 GT that has been modified. I'm not sure what all was done to it as everything was done before I bought it. It did have a Holly 670CFM Street Avenger with a performer 302 intake, MSD 6A Ignition sysyem and MSD 8582 Distributor. Cam is not stock and the AOD was replaced with a C4 Pro Street trans. I had to have everything taken off (except the cam) to make it meet the new emmissions laws. Now I have the surge and idle stall. The shop that is working on it says it is the cam and trans causing the problem or possibly the ECU. Any Better Ideas?
 
mjlee4usmc said:
I have an 88 GT that has been modified. I'm not sure what all was done to it as everything was done before I bought it. It did have a Holly 670CFM Street Avenger with a performer 302 intake, MSD 6A Ignition sysyem and MSD 8582 Distributor. Cam is not stock and the AOD was replaced with a C4 Pro Street trans. I had to have everything taken off (except the cam) to make it meet the new emmissions laws. Now I have the surge and idle stall. The shop that is working on it says it is the cam and trans causing the problem or possibly the ECU. Any Better Ideas?
Read the very first post in the sticky if your car is EFI. Everything that I got from the contributors to this sticky has been edited and summarized in it.

If your car is carb'd, sorry, I can't help you.
 
vikingpower said:
Does disabling the EGR effect the idle? I've tried all this other stuff mentioned here and none of it has helped. When I swapped cams I blocked the exhaust passage from the heads and unplugged the EGR and I cant get the damn to idle under 1500 RPMS.
No.

Unplug the IAB and see if adjusting the idle screw will bring down the idle below 600 RPM. If it won't, the odds are that you have a vacuum leak. Remember that adjusting the idle screw changes the TPS adjustment.

Try this... Currently there is some dispute about setting it at .99 volts being worth the effort, but anything less is probably OK. All you need is less than 1.0 volt at idle and more than 4.25 at Wide Open Throttle (WOT). You'll need a Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job.

The Orange/White wire is the VREF 5 volts from the computer. You use the Dark Green/Lt green wire (TPS signal) and the Black/White wire (TPS ground) to set the TPS

Here’s a TPS tip I got from NoGo50

When you installed the sensor make sure you place it on the peg right and then tighten it down properly. Loosen the back screw a tiny bit so the sensor can pivot and loosen the front screw enough so you can move it just a little in very small increments. I wouldn’t try to adjust it using marks. Set it at .97v-.99v, the closer to .99v the better.

(copied from MustangMax, Glendale AZ)

1. Always adjust the TPS and Idle with the engine at operating temp. Dive it around for a bit if you can and get it nice and warm.

2. When you probe the leads of the TPS, do not use an engine ground, put the ground probe into the lead of the TPS. You should be connecting both meter probes to the TPS and not one to the TPS and the other to ground.

3. Always reset the computer whenever you adjust the TPS or clean/change any sensors. I just pull the battery lead for 10 minutes.

4. Check the procedure for your year, on my 90 I have to turn the idle screw until it just touches the tab, then insert a .010 feeler gauge and give it about one more turn. Then you adjust the TPS voltage to .98v, reset the computer. Start it up, if the idle is to low then turn the screw in until it is just right, then readjust the TPS voltage to .98v and reset the computer and start it up. The key is to adjust the TPS voltage and reset the computer whenever the idle screw is changed.
 
Man am I glad I found you guys. I came off the freeway this morning w/ the throttle stuck @ 2000+ rpm and it wouldn't stop till I turned the engine off. I've recently cleaned the TB & replaced my vaccuum lines so it looks as though it's the TPS. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I just realized that there was no "check engine" light either. Is that another clue?
 
dirtstev said:
Man am I glad I found you guys. I came off the freeway this morning w/ the throttle stuck @ 2000+ rpm and it wouldn't stop till I turned the engine off. I've recently cleaned the TB & replaced my vaccuum lines so it looks as though it's the TPS. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I just realized that there was no "check engine" light either. Is that another clue?

It is worth pulling the codes still, as the CEL (check engine light) is not always triggered.
 
I have a problem not with surging but high idle. It will idle low as I want it to until I try to set the TPS to around .9 it will idle to about 1200 and this is with 2 different TPS sensors. If I bring it back to .6 or less it will idle where I set it.
 
I went through the checklist .The car ran good for about two weeks without a hitch.Then it started bucking like it was losing fuel pressure ,I installed a pressure gauge and it matains 36 pds.The scanner reads 29,54,66,87and 96 .Any ideals? Thank uou
 
BLKBELT said:
I went through the checklist .The car ran good for about two weeks without a hitch.Then it started bucking like it was losing fuel pressure ,I installed a pressure gauge and it matains 36 pds.The scanner reads 29,54,66,87and 96 .Any ideals? Thank uou

Code 29 - Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) is an electronic sender mounted on the speedo pickup gear on the trans. It works the cruse control for both 5 speed and auto trans cars. The VSS is used to tell the computer to speed up the idle as you slow to a stop. This helps keep the engine from stalling when you slow down for a stop sign or stop light.
Check to see if the electrical connector is plugged into it. Clean the connector & contacts with non flammable brake parts cleaner prior to replacing the sensor, as that may fix the problem. The sensor cost is under $30 and it is easy to replace.

Code 54 – ACT sensor out of range. Broken or damaged wiring, bad ACT sensor. Note that that if the outside air temp is below 50 degrees F that the test for the ACT can be in error.

Check the resistance of the black/white wire to battery ground. If it is less than 1 ohm, it is good. If it is more than 1 ohm, the black/white wire has bad connections or a broken wire. Always take resistance measurements with the circuit powered off.

Then check the resistance of the ACT sender located in the #5 intake runner on most 5.0 stangs.

ACT & ECT test data:

The ACT & ECT have the same thermistor, so the table values are the same

Pin 7 on the computer - ECT signal in. at 176 degrees F it should be .80 volts

Pin 25 on the computer - ACT signal in. at 50 degrees F it should be 3.5 volts. It is a good number if the ACT is mounted in the inlet airbox. If it is mounted in the lower intake manifold, the voltage readings will be lower because of the heat transfer. Here's the table :

68 degrees F = 3.02 v
86 degrees F = 2.62 v
104 degrees F = 2.16 v
122 degrees F = 1.72 v
140 degrees F = 1.35 v
158 degrees F = 1.04 v
176 degrees F = .80 v
194 degrees F = .61

Ohms measures at the computer with the computer disconnected, or at the sensor with the sensor disconnected.
50 degrees F = 58.75 K ohms
68 degrees F = 37.30 K ohms
86 degrees F = 27.27 K ohms
104 degrees F = 16.15 K ohms
122 degrees F = 10.97 K ohms
140 degrees F = 7.60 K ohms
158 degrees F = 5.37 K ohms
176 degrees F = 3.84 K ohms
194 degrees F = 2.80 K ohms

Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.

There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.

The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).

The MAF output varies with RPM which causes the airflow to increase or decease. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer.

For voltage measurements, the red & back wires are used as a test pair, and the dark blue/orange and tan/light blue are a test pair. That means you measure the voltage using only using the test pair as + & -. Do not measure between the colors and ground for this test.

At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt

Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.

There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF and ground.

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif

Code 87 – fuel pump primary circuit failure. The fuel pump lost power while the engine was running. Check fuel pump relay, check inertia switch, wiring to/from inertia switch, red wire going to inertia switch for +12volts. Check the other side of inertia switch for +12 volts.

To help troubleshoot the 87 code, follow this link for a wiring diagram for 89-93 cars [urlhttp://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/19/59/5a/0900823d8019595a.jsp [/url]

For 79-88 cars use, http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/16/71/3c/0900823d8016713c.jsp

The following test path covers two different wiring schemes. Make sure you are following the one for your model year car.

Code 96 – KOEO- Fuel pump monitor circuit shows no power - Fuel pump relay or battery power feed was open - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits. The fuel pump lost power at some time while the ignition switch was in the run position.

Look for a failing fuel pump relay, bad connections or broken wiring. The fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air Meter on Fox bodied stangs built after 91. On earlier model cars is under the passenger seat. On Mass Air Conversions, the signal lead that tells the computer that the fuel pump has power may not have been wired correctly. See http://www.stangnet.com/tech/maf/massairconversion.html

To help troubleshoot the 96 code , follow this link for a wiring diagram for 87-90 models http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

for 91-93 models see http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195960.gif

Look for power at the fuel pump - the fuel pump has a connector at the rear of the car with a pink/black wire and a black wire that goes to the fuel pump. The pink/black wire should be hot when the test connector is jumpered to the test position. . To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/eec-iv_codes.html for a description of the test connector. it. No voltage when jumpered, check the fuel pump relay and fuse links.

86-90 Models:
Using the diagram, check the red/black wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not, check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Orange/Lt blue wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the Pink/black wire, swap the relay.

91-93 Models:
Using the diagram, check the dark green/yellow wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not the relay has failed or is intermittent. Check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Pink/black wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the dark green/yellow wire, swap the relay.