My 2.3L N/A Project
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Stinger
Founding Member
WTF are you talking about? You previously said we must all be crappy junkyard shoppers if we can't find better deals and now you are claiming all this 750 dollar turbo kit, 500 dollar transmission BS. Get a clue. MANY people have picked up COMPLETE 2.3 Turbo engines for less than 350 bux...hardly any pay more than 500. Alot of those even came with the transmission. If not, a T5 tranny only brings 50-150 bux anyway. So it's more like 450-500 bux can get you everything you need for the turbo swap...and can make 160-170hp at the wheels without any more cash. Spend another 150 bux on a boost controller, 3" downpipe, and cone filter and it can easily but 200-220hp to wheels...we're now at 600-650 dollars...your volvo head is looking like a better and better deal every day
WTF are you talking about? You previously said we must all be crappy junkyard shoppers if we can't find better deals and now you are claiming all this 750 dollar turbo kit, 500 dollar transmission BS. Get a clue. MANY people have picked up COMPLETE 2.3 Turbo engines for less than 350 bux...hardly any pay more than 500. Alot of those even came with the transmission. If not, a T5 tranny only brings 50-150 bux anyway. So it's more like 450-500 bux can get you everything you need for the turbo swap...and can make 160-170hp at the wheels without any more cash. Spend another 150 bux on a boost controller, 3" downpipe, and cone filter and it can easily but 200-220hp to wheels...we're now at 600-650 dollars...your volvo head is looking like a better and better deal every day
You took everything I said way out of context, but hey what ever you say man.Holy hell guys !!!
I started this thread thinking I was going to get some decent info, rather all I did was start a huge flame war !!!
Here's the deal. I've never built up an engine before. I don't care to swap it either. I just wanted to know how much power could be made with the stock engine if I beefed it up as much as possible, while still maintaining streetability. I also wanted to try something different.
For me, this is just a learning experience/fun project. I like simplicity and the 2.3L has that. It's 4 cylinder, small, easy to work on, good on gas, etc. I wanted to eliminate fuel injection and go carbed, because it's simpler than fuel injection and computers. I also like 4 cylinders because the small size means more space in the engine bay (easier to get fix stuff) and less weight.
I'm going to do this project and post my results. It will be a carbed 2.3L with all the work mentioned in the first post on this thread, and maybe a little more. I'm going to keep it as streetable as possible while still making as much power as I can. Probably use 4.10 gears if I can. I'm looking for a "lethal first gear" not a super high top end. After all this is a street car, and I'm not going to be doing 130mph to the grocery store.
When it's done, I'll have it dyno'd AND bring it to the track. After that I'll post my 1/4 mile times, and my dyno sheet, and we'll see how it turns out. As I said before, this is just a fun, different project. I'm not trying to set any records or "blow doors off" or anything like that. If I wanted a monster, I'd build a giant V8 with a supercharger and a bottle of giggly gas.
And before somebody says my gas mileage will suck with a carb, I don't think it'll be that big of a difference considering it's on a lightweight car with a 2.3L engine. And emissions are not even remotely a concern here where I live.
That being said, let's just keep it friendly and in perspective. I'm sorry if I started something.
I started this thread thinking I was going to get some decent info, rather all I did was start a huge flame war !!!
Here's the deal. I've never built up an engine before. I don't care to swap it either. I just wanted to know how much power could be made with the stock engine if I beefed it up as much as possible, while still maintaining streetability. I also wanted to try something different.
For me, this is just a learning experience/fun project. I like simplicity and the 2.3L has that. It's 4 cylinder, small, easy to work on, good on gas, etc. I wanted to eliminate fuel injection and go carbed, because it's simpler than fuel injection and computers. I also like 4 cylinders because the small size means more space in the engine bay (easier to get fix stuff) and less weight.
I'm going to do this project and post my results. It will be a carbed 2.3L with all the work mentioned in the first post on this thread, and maybe a little more. I'm going to keep it as streetable as possible while still making as much power as I can. Probably use 4.10 gears if I can. I'm looking for a "lethal first gear" not a super high top end. After all this is a street car, and I'm not going to be doing 130mph to the grocery store.
When it's done, I'll have it dyno'd AND bring it to the track. After that I'll post my 1/4 mile times, and my dyno sheet, and we'll see how it turns out. As I said before, this is just a fun, different project. I'm not trying to set any records or "blow doors off" or anything like that. If I wanted a monster, I'd build a giant V8 with a supercharger and a bottle of giggly gas.
And before somebody says my gas mileage will suck with a carb, I don't think it'll be that big of a difference considering it's on a lightweight car with a 2.3L engine. And emissions are not even remotely a concern here where I live.
That being said, let's just keep it friendly and in perspective. I'm sorry if I started something.
Well, carbs are the only way to make any power, from what I've seen, so that's probably a good choice. Offy makes a 4 barrel intake, but you have to run a tiny little carb on it (390 cfm) so you might be better off sticking with a two barrel setup.
Also, FYI: You gotta have a Duraspark II ignition to run a carb on your car. I can't even remember what years/models have it, but you gotta grab one.
Also, FYI: You gotta have a Duraspark II ignition to run a carb on your car. I can't even remember what years/models have it, but you gotta grab one.
Is it necessary that it be a factory Duraspark II or can I just go get an entire aftermarket ignition setup? And for carbs, would a dual carb setup still be driveable? What are the pros and cons of a 2 carb setup compared to a single carb setup?
I also saw a 500cfm 2 barrel carb on esslinger, so if I go with a single carb setup, would that be a viable option instead of a scrawny little 390cfm carb?
As far as the ignition goes, I'm not completely sure. I just know I've heard several people say that you have to have the duraspark II to run a carb on a car that was originally EFI.
For the carbs...well, nobody sells a dual carb manifold that i know of, unless you're talking about dual Webers, or Mikunis ($$$). And a 500 cfm two-barrel is wayyyy too big for anything other than a full-tilt 2.3L, IMO (if you think about it, the 5.0 HO in '85 ran a 600 cfm four barrel)
For the carbs...well, nobody sells a dual carb manifold that i know of, unless you're talking about dual Webers, or Mikunis ($$$). And a 500 cfm two-barrel is wayyyy too big for anything other than a full-tilt 2.3L, IMO (if you think about it, the 5.0 HO in '85 ran a 600 cfm four barrel)
Back to boring out the engine. The stock bore is 3.780 right?
I've seen pistons at summitracing.com for the 2.3L 88 mustang that are 3.840.
So that's a .060 over. After that I wouldn't be able to bore at all correct? Or could I even bore it out that much? This engine being carbed, is definately going to have to be bored AND stroked to make any power. So is a .060 overbore possible?
And what would be the longest rods I could use? I'm thinking maybe just go take the rods and pistons out of a 2.5L ranger and use them. If not, I can always just buy the rods and pistons seperate. Like I said, there's not much of a time table or price limit on this project.
I've seen pistons at summitracing.com for the 2.3L 88 mustang that are 3.840.
So that's a .060 over. After that I wouldn't be able to bore at all correct? Or could I even bore it out that much? This engine being carbed, is definately going to have to be bored AND stroked to make any power. So is a .060 overbore possible?
And what would be the longest rods I could use? I'm thinking maybe just go take the rods and pistons out of a 2.5L ranger and use them. If not, I can always just buy the rods and pistons seperate. Like I said, there's not much of a time table or price limit on this project.
The stock bore is 3.780. You could go .060 over, but that is the absolute maximum without sleeving the block (big money). However, I think you'll find it isn't worth going that big. You generally will want to go with smallest overbore possible. Going .030 over only gives you something like 2 cu.in., so .060 is about 4cu inch. The advantage of going only .020 or .030 over, is that you'll be able to bore it again incase something happens, plus the walls get kinda thin at .060. The turbo guys start worrying when you bore .030 over.
The 2.5 crank has a smaller main journal diameter than your 88 mustang. If you want to use the 2.5 crank, you should get a later small journal block, or the bearing insert things racer walsh sells.
For pistons and rods... the longest rod you can use is 5.7" on the 2.3l, and 5.5" on the 2.5l if I recall correctly. However, running rods that long allows the piston to rock, and can cause oil consumption. It is generally reserved for race or occasional street engines because of the oil consumption and wear characteristics.
For the stock 2.5l rods and pistons, that seems to be a good idea. It won't be too expensive, and you know the setup will wear well.
Of course, all of that is for an NA setup. You probably wouldn't want to use much nitrous, or any boost on these setups because the rods pins are up in the rings and the pistons are cast.
One thing you might consider, is building a bottom end that is power adder ready. When I was NA, I built a bottom end using dish turbo pistons. These were forged, and ready to take the abuse of nitrous or boost. Then, I milled the head to get the compression to make it a fun NA engine. I milled .090 and that gave me about 10:1 compression with the dish pistons. Then, when you want to go turbo, just swap heads
.
The 2.5 crank has a smaller main journal diameter than your 88 mustang. If you want to use the 2.5 crank, you should get a later small journal block, or the bearing insert things racer walsh sells.
For pistons and rods... the longest rod you can use is 5.7" on the 2.3l, and 5.5" on the 2.5l if I recall correctly. However, running rods that long allows the piston to rock, and can cause oil consumption. It is generally reserved for race or occasional street engines because of the oil consumption and wear characteristics.
For the stock 2.5l rods and pistons, that seems to be a good idea. It won't be too expensive, and you know the setup will wear well.
Of course, all of that is for an NA setup. You probably wouldn't want to use much nitrous, or any boost on these setups because the rods pins are up in the rings and the pistons are cast.
One thing you might consider, is building a bottom end that is power adder ready. When I was NA, I built a bottom end using dish turbo pistons. These were forged, and ready to take the abuse of nitrous or boost. Then, I milled the head to get the compression to make it a fun NA engine. I milled .090 and that gave me about 10:1 compression with the dish pistons. Then, when you want to go turbo, just swap heads
.
It is just the NA combo I mentioned previously in the thread. The dish turbo pistons, milled head, long tube header, cam and ported intake. It put 120hp on the rollers, and the trap speed (17.something at 78mph) showed 115 rwhp.
Certainly, it wasn't hurt by having the forged turbo pistons. I guess they even help with swirl, making the burn faster and such.
Certainly, it wasn't hurt by having the forged turbo pistons. I guess they even help with swirl, making the burn faster and such.
One thing you might consider, is building a bottom end that is power adder ready. When I was NA, I built a bottom end using dish turbo pistons. These were forged, and ready to take the abuse of nitrous or boost. Then, I milled the head to get the compression to make it a fun NA engine. I milled .090 and that gave me about 10:1 compression with the dish pistons. Then, when you want to go turbo, just swap heads
That's a pretty good idea. That way I'll be able to enjoy my N/A power now, and when I get ready for the turbo, all my earlier work will REALLY shine through with the boost.
Who's talking about kits? I'm trying to keep the playing field even. There sure ain't a Volvo head conversion kit. So get your used Volvo head, get it reworked to fit properly on a 2.3, Do all of the fab work for a new intake manifold and exhaust manifold, timing belt arrangement, etc. and I'll go to the local u-pull-it and get a complete Turbo Coupe motor and drop it in and we'll see who ends up on top when you compare dyno results and bank statements.
Anlushac11
Founding Member
I would pass on the Offy 4bbl intake.
The intake runners are divided in half to provide a smaller runner for primaries to maintain velocity and a slighty larger runner for the secondaries. End result is a good street intake but it flows no better than a well ported E6 EFI lower and the Racer Walsh 2bbl adapter.
Thats one reason Racer Walsh doesnt list alot of different intakes anymore, at least last time I looked.
IIRC companies Redline and Canon used to make race quality intakes. One was a sidedraft Weber 2bbl.
The intake runners are divided in half to provide a smaller runner for primaries to maintain velocity and a slighty larger runner for the secondaries. End result is a good street intake but it flows no better than a well ported E6 EFI lower and the Racer Walsh 2bbl adapter.
Thats one reason Racer Walsh doesnt list alot of different intakes anymore, at least last time I looked.
IIRC companies Redline and Canon used to make race quality intakes. One was a sidedraft Weber 2bbl.
Stinger
Founding Member
The way to build a nice hp 2.3 n/a and a 2.3 turbo are completely polar opposites...high vs low compression, high revs vs low revs, etc. You most certainly do NOT want to bore it .060 over if you ever plan on turbocharging it...
wow this has been a trip.lqtms
and I realy did laugh out loud when he said that the posabilities are endless when he goes with the volvo head. last time I checked there was no aftermarket cams for the volvo head. is that still true?
you have to wonder if kh even has a 2.3l? or if he's just trying to stir things up?
I have talked to stinger on the phone before and found him to be a rather smart kind and helpful guy. and this is the first time I've seen him get pissed.
by the way stinger, I think you need another sponsered car this time you hould sponcer a tbird in texas. and you know what I know of one that you can slap your parts on.
and I realy did laugh out loud when he said that the posabilities are endless when he goes with the volvo head. last time I checked there was no aftermarket cams for the volvo head. is that still true?
you have to wonder if kh even has a 2.3l? or if he's just trying to stir things up?
I have talked to stinger on the phone before and found him to be a rather smart kind and helpful guy. and this is the first time I've seen him get pissed.
by the way stinger, I think you need another sponsered car this time you hould sponcer a tbird in texas. and you know what I know of one that you can slap your parts on.
Stinger
Founding Member
I wasn't pissed...I don't get pissed (EVER). I do get fed up with BS every now and then though...
Go for it
I have a 75 hatchback with a 2.3 that I have done a little work to. I didn't want to swap a different motor or turbo either (have other cars that fill that need.) So far I have swapped in a T5 for the C3 auto. Changed the rear end to an 8" with 3.55's. Header and Dellorot sidedrafts. The trans made a big difference on how the car feels and is much more fun. The sidedrafts sound great and let it rev much freer. It isn't what I would call a fast car, but huge improvement over stock. I have another oval port head at the machine shop. It is getting 40 thousands shaved off and a Ford racing A237 roller cam, bigger valves and springs put in. I'll swap the head when I get it back. That will probably be all I do to it, except drive it. It is lowered and has 17X8 bullitt wheels. My pictures are to big to post on this forum. I have pic's on All Ford Mustangs under the same name. I look foward to going to work just because I get to drive the Mustang. The carbs have a nice burble at idle and a low whooop under throttle. I got the carbs for $35 each on Ebay and the manifold for $160. I changed the chokes to 35mm's and jetted them myself (already had jet reams and gages.) I have had several sets of Webers and Dellortos in the past and am fairly competent with them. I am not trying to race anyone (too old and smart for that) just wanted to bring the potential out of the 2.3 and enjoy it.
I have a 75 hatchback with a 2.3 that I have done a little work to. I didn't want to swap a different motor or turbo either (have other cars that fill that need.) So far I have swapped in a T5 for the C3 auto. Changed the rear end to an 8" with 3.55's. Header and Dellorot sidedrafts. The trans made a big difference on how the car feels and is much more fun. The sidedrafts sound great and let it rev much freer. It isn't what I would call a fast car, but huge improvement over stock. I have another oval port head at the machine shop. It is getting 40 thousands shaved off and a Ford racing A237 roller cam, bigger valves and springs put in. I'll swap the head when I get it back. That will probably be all I do to it, except drive it. It is lowered and has 17X8 bullitt wheels. My pictures are to big to post on this forum. I have pic's on All Ford Mustangs under the same name. I look foward to going to work just because I get to drive the Mustang. The carbs have a nice burble at idle and a low whooop under throttle. I got the carbs for $35 each on Ebay and the manifold for $160. I changed the chokes to 35mm's and jetted them myself (already had jet reams and gages.) I have had several sets of Webers and Dellortos in the past and am fairly competent with them. I am not trying to race anyone (too old and smart for that) just wanted to bring the potential out of the 2.3 and enjoy it.
