building my 351w

[project.65]

I have a 351w that's in need of a rebuild. I want to build a good motor hoping to get it in the 12's ...11's wouldn't hurt either. I dont know if I can achieve my goals with a GOOD rebuild and some great after-market heads or do I "need" to go stroker? If I could I would go a spend 6gs on a motor, but since I am only 19 I have somewhat of a limit. My dad will be helping out a'lil. This will be my daily driver, but will see the track once in a while so pump gas is a must. My dad will be helping me out getting a 9" posi rear, but what gears would you guys suggest I get? I have a C-4 right now and can get it built almost for free all I need to buy are the parts since my dads friend owns his own tranny shop. As for suspension, I have new upper & lower control arms, new (620)springs with half coil cut, 1" sway bar, New 5 leaf mid-eye springs, monte carlo bar, export brace, and 17x8's rollin my car.
- Hope I dont sound dumb about my situation/goals, so what do you guys have to say?...

 

[Rusty67]

If you want to make some extra power for almost no extra cost then get a 393 stroker crank. I think you can get into a brand new crank that has Ford sized bearings for under 300 bux. No replacement for displacement.

 

[rbohm]

a stroker motor is an easy way to make power, most of which will be down low. you can pick up decent aftermarket heads that will help you make good power as well. i like the world products windsor sr heads which you can get ready to bolt on for about $900 a pair.

you need a cam that will make power to about 5500 rpm, but will also offer good drivability. living with a lumpy idle and an engine that loads up at low speed, and turns in poor fuel economy just to get into the 12's isnt cool anymore. i suggest using something like the 280 magnum cam or an xe278h cam from comp cams with a stroker crank. more cubes makes a cam seem milder than it really is.

for headers you want a 1 5/8" primary tube.

for an intake use the performer rpm or the weiand stealth. top it off with a 750 carb for daily use, and use an 850 for racing.

get the rear suspension set up right, and run a set of 3.55 gears and a good 5spd trans to run the freeway with no problem.

one more thing, stiffen up the chassis as much as possible, and it makes any suspension mods much more effective.

 

[SoCalCruising]

The main thing you need in order to reach your goal is good flowing heads. You can have the stock heads ported, if you have access to this at low/no cost. If not, then buy aftermarket heads rather than pay retail for the porting. A Stealth or RPM intake is fine and the 1 5/8" primary tubes will also be good. If you want to stroke it, fine. You'll get poorer fuel economy (do you care?) and more power down low than you can use with such a light-weight car and limited traction.

Again, getting good heads is your most important consideration. Get the best heads you can afford. You can always stroke the thing later, but you WILL be happy with a 351 rebuild if the heads are good.

 

[project.65]

Ok, Im leaning more towards the rebuild since its cheaper and I can probably reach my goals with that. If I go stroker I wouldn't want to spend more than 1g for the kit. Does anyone know of any good kits? What do you guys think of kits like these..
http://www.fordstrokers.com/393-windsor-street-fighter-gt-rotating-kit-p146.html
http://www.fordstrokers.com/393-windsor-street-fighter-rotating-kit-p119.html
quick question... This will be my first build. What's a rough estimate of a complete rebuild?

 

[SoCalCruising]

try adperformance.com for good kits. Brian is easy to work with and their prices are decent.

 

[project.65]

I think I'm goin to just do a rebuild it and add some really nice heads , like SoCalCruising said," I can always stroke it later." Where do you guys usually get your parts for rebuilds?

 

[65ShelbyClone]

Not that I think they are the end-all of performance shops, but PAW(Performance Automotive Warehouse) has a big selection and average prices. None of it is online, though; you either need to know what you want ahead of time, order their comprehensive(phonebook size) catalog, or order the Ford-specific parts catalog. I prefer them because I can drive to their store unlike Summit.

Just NEVER buy any of their off-brand or store-brand stuff trying to save money. You'll end up buying it twice.

 

[Rusty67]

If you buy the right stroker crank you don't need a kit. Just use 302 rods/pistons. Since you are rebuilding it the only additional cost will be the crank because you were going to use new pistons/rods anyways right ? For you dollar its the cheapest way to make HP. If you simply don't want to build a stroker I totally understand but if you are going to do it later it will cost you more in the long run.

 

[5.0ina66]

If you buy the right stroker crank you don't need a kit. Just use 302 rods/pistons. Since you are rebuilding it the only additional cost will be the crank because you were going to use new pistons/rods anyways right ? For you dollar its the cheapest way to make HP. If you simply don't want to build a stroker I totally understand but if you are going to do it later it will cost you more in the long run.

I agree, build a 393W this way, put on AFR185s, 10.5:1, port a used PerformerRPM intake, headers, 750cfm and a nice cam, windage tray, and low tension ring pack and I was looking at 493hp (but that was assuming a roller block and TFS #2 cam).

 

[SoCalCruising]

The rod ratio on that style 393 is about 1.55, pretty poor for pump gas car. You should really use a fairly high compression ratio with a rod ratio like that. But, to each his own. Personally, I like strokers (see sig), but a built 357 in a 65-66 is already a whole bunch of power. And you can't get much tire under those cars, so traction is limited anyway. There's a thread on here about a well0built 347 that hasn't seen the 12s yet 'cause of traction problems. It just doesn't make sense to me to build a big, hi-torque motor for an early model. But, that's just me.

 

[5.0ina66]

The rod ratio on that style 393 is about 1.55, pretty poor for pump gas car. You should really use a fairly high compression ratio with a rod ratio like that. But, to each his own.

But rod ratio doesn't make much difference in any catagory that I can tell. Longevity is ok and so is power.

 

[project.65]

That budget 393 stroker sounds nice, but has anyone on here ever done it? SoCalCruising makes a good point. Will having a stroker give me too much torque to grip? I'm rolling on 17x8's all around. What ratio should I be at to run on pump gas?

 

[Rusty67]

I didn't realize rod ratio played into what type of gas you needed ? I always thought it was determined by your compression ratio and how much timing advance you run.

 

[ratio411]

Just me, but a 393 crank with stock 351w rods and 'off the shelf' 302 pistons is a dirt cheap way to make power.
If you build a 351w for 1hp per cube (which is cake), then for 300 bux more, you can have an instant 40 plus extra cubes and the hp that comes without even trying.
Also, the cost of the crank is offset by not having to machine your old crank back to specs AND the less expensive 302 pistons.
So, for just a bit more than the price of a straight up 351 rebuild, you throw 40 plus cubes into the mix.

393 crank
Stock rods (polish if you have the inclination)
ARP rod bolts (A MUST ON ANY FORD!!!)
Dished 302 pistons (Flat tops make too much compression, about 11.5:1)
Stealth manifold
3310 Holley (if you intend to stay C4)
A loose 11" converter (just something a little over stock*)
*A bigger engine will generally increase stall speed, so as the cubes go up, be conservative...
3.25 to 3.50-ish gears (anything lower will cause traction problems and likely put the engine out of it's range too quickly)
Cam is a wide open selection... I would shoot for something around 230* at .050"... Which is right at 280* Comp Magnum, but look for something newer, maybe a split duration. Split duration ESPECIALLY if you use ported stock heads. It will appreciate.
69-73 W heads can be awesome, and better than some aftermarket heads if they are ported properly.
Aluminum would be a better choice though if you have the budget.
They can allow an addition point of compression, OR allow lower octane fuel, depending on your needs.
I like AFR 185s and 205s. (205s have a much better exhaust port)
AT LEAST 1 5/8" headers.
1 3/4" wouldn't hurt at all if you have the budget, with a 393w.

Stock Duraspark distributors are an economical choice over spending big dough on an aftermarket distributor that is most likely just a Duraspark knock-off.
They can be paired with a box, like MSD-6, and run without a Ford brain box.
They are just a type of magnetic trigger for an ignition box.

 

[5.0ina66]

I didn't realize rod ratio played into what type of gas you needed ? I always thought it was determined by your compression ratio and how much timing advance you run.

I don't know where that tidbit came from, I was puzzled by it too, but at any rate, it is NOT true. Dynamic compression ratio and timing advance are the ONLY things that determine what kind of gas you can run. DCR factors in static compression, cam timing, top end flow and exhaust flow and a DCR of 8:1 will run on 87 if you pull a little advance, no problems on 89.

 

[ratio411]

Rod ratio is sort of a 'black art' in our hobby...

What I know about it is:
Longer rods put less pressure on the cylinder walls, because they travel at less of an angle the longer the rod gets.

Longer rods spend more time at the top of the cylinder, which is said to allow it to absorb more of the combustion explosion to convert into downward force, when it starts going back down.

Longer rods allow less crank stroke.
More crank stroke makes FAR more power than more rod length, so stroke wins the arguement over building a long rod engine!

 

[rbohm]

I don't know where that tidbit came from, I was puzzled by it too, but at any rate, it is NOT true. Dynamic compression ratio and timing advance are the ONLY things that determine what kind of gas you can run. DCR factors in static compression, cam timing, top end flow and exhaust flow and a DCR of 8:1 will run on 87 if you pull a little advance, no problems on 89.

actually the rod ratio does have an effect on the dynamic compression ratio. remember that with a shorter rod, the piston accelerates and decelerates much quicker than an engine with a longer rod. the more consistent piston acceleration means lower pressure spikes in the combustion chamber, which in turn lowers the dcr. that said, you can also affect the dcr with cam timing as well. with the right cam you can run fairly high compression ratio's and still avoid detonation at low speeds and high loads(which is where detonation is most prevelant), even with 10-12 degrees initial timing.

remember that with any engine build you have to take a systems approach to make power, fuel economy, and drivability.

 

[bnickel]

actually the rod ratio does have an effect on the dynamic compression ratio. remember that with a shorter rod, the piston accelerates and decelerates much quicker than an engine with a longer rod. the more consistent piston acceleration means lower pressure spikes in the combustion chamber, which in turn lowers the dcr. that said, you can also affect the dcr with cam timing as well. with the right cam you can run fairly high compression ratio's and still avoid detonation at low speeds and high loads(which is where detonation is most prevelant), even with 10-12 degrees initial timing.

remember that with any engine build you have to take a systems approach to make power, fuel economy, and drivability.

exactly, with a higher rod ratio the piston stays parked at TDC longer effectively boosting compression and promoting a longer burn and with the smaller ratio the piston doesn't stay at TDC very long at all effectively decreasing compression. personally, i'll be staying with a stock stroke 351w but a long rod version using 351m/400 rods and KB pistons, with an aluminum head you can run as much 11:1 compression on pump gas and get better mileage to boot, not to mention that the higher rod ratio will increase the engines longevity. there is a reason why most straight 6 engines run forever and it has everything to do with rod ratio

 

[project.65]

Im really interested in this 393 stroker. What kind of crank do I use?..scat? Has anyone on here ever done this kind of build?