windsor or cleveland?

[StangDreamin']

Yeah, I started reading and I couldn't believe how almost every post contains misconceptions and incorrect answers! Wow! Just a few things:
1. The 2 bolt and 4 bolt main C blocks are identical except the 4 bolt blocks have extra tapped holes. The castings are the same. Many people say the blocks are about the same in strength, but the 2 bolt blocks have more material in the mains area and so are slightly stronger in those locations.

I believe I already addressed/corrected that misconception in the second post of this thread.

2. 4V heads are great for the street. You just want to use the right cam, gears and converter - just like any engine build up.

I keep hearing that, but I also keep finding articles (both "on the Web" and in print) that claim otherwise. I'd guess it's because I look upon a "street" motor as just that - an engine that mostly spins on the street. My Gran was a daily driver until I bought the F100; and then it was still driven more than the truck. That was mostly because it was easier on gas and had generally better "street manners"; especially after the pickup got its 406.

3. The C blocks are stronger than W blocks of the same era. Both have casting shift. The false rumors of Cs being weaker is because the stock heads can flow enough to rev REALLY high - enough to over power the cylinder walls.

Yup - I must have missed the post where that (the insane core-shift problem) was mentioned; because I would have refuted it. Oh, wait a minute; I do remember Bryan saying something about it; and I told him I must have been incredibly lucky. I'm almost thinking that Cleveland core-shift issues are like the trouble with "before late-2003" 5.4 cammer motors spitting out plugs - it's a bad problem when (which isn't all the often) it happens. If I suddenly hear a big BANG and my F150 starts smelling like a gasoline fire; I'll probably be singing a different tune, but 'til then "it's all good".

My answer to the original poster's question is that you can't go wrong with either. However, the C was built by Ford to be a high performance engine, but the 351W was designed more for trucks. I think there are more people/shops who understand the W since it's more common and there are more aftermarket options for the W. However, there's a reason why the Ford Nascar cars still run a Cleveland style head! Also, the Cleveland has a strong aftermarket, motors with CHI aluminum Cleveland heads won the Engine Masters Competition several years in a row. You might have fewer aftermarket options, but the options out there are every bit as good as the W options.

A great low buck mild build would be a 351C with 4V closed chamber heads and Torker intake. It's easy to over cam the C, and you want to make sure you pick the right gears/converter as with any build.

Try the Network 54 Cleveland forums for top notch tech.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

Agreed.

 

[bnickel]

I believe I already addressed/corrected that misconception in the second post of this thread.

I keep hearing that, but I also keep finding articles (both "on the Web" and in print) that claim otherwise. I'd guess it's because I look upon a "street" motor as just that - an engine that mostly spins on the street. My Gran was a daily driver until I bought the F100; and then it was still driven more than the truck. That was mostly because it was easier on gas and had generally better "street manners"; especially after the pickup got its 406.

Yup - I must have missed the post where that (the insane core-shift problem) was mentioned; because I would have refuted it. Oh, wait a minute; I do remember Bryan saying something about it; and I told him I must have been incredibly lucky. I'm almost thinking that Cleveland core-shift issues are like the trouble with "before late-2003" 5.4 cammer motors spitting out plugs - it's a bad problem when (which isn't all the often) it happens. If I suddenly hear a big BANG and my F150 starts smelling like a gasoline fire; I'll probably be singing a different tune, but 'til then "it's all good".


Agreed.

i totally have to disagree with the part about windsors being designed for trucks, especially since the windsor wasn't even installed in trucks until the mid-late 70's several years after if it's introduction and while the cleveland was never factory installed in a truck it's derivatives the 351m and 400 were and they were installed in trucks a few years before the windsor was.

 

[Hack]

I keep hearing that, but I also keep finding articles (both "on the Web" and in print) that claim otherwise. I'd guess it's because I look upon a "street" motor as just that - an engine that mostly spins on the street. My Gran was a daily driver until I bought the F100; and then it was still driven more than the truck. That was mostly because it was easier on gas and had generally better "street manners"; especially after the pickup got its 406.

Yes I didn't read through all the pages - so sorry if I duplicated your earlier posts.

How many 4V Clevelands were made by Ford? They were even put in big cars with automatics.... but they can't run on the street? Hmm, something doesn't add up!

4V heads are fine for the street and a lot of people run them on the street. I'm not saying that the head is optimized for low rpm use, but it will work fine. I think this rumor is either due to the large amount of high rpm power, which makes the lower rpms seem a little soft by comparison even though they really aren't.. or the rumor is due to Chevy guys saying that the ports are too large, they must not work well!

Then in the next breath the Chevy guys call it a big block. It's not a big block - it just takes a big block Chevy to keep up!

bnickel: regarding the truck thing - the W has large mains that are more suited to lower rpm use. It also has a higher deck which makes the block heavier but is good for a torquey truck engine. The 351M and 400 had a higher deck and larger mains than the Cleveland as well; Ford used the canted heads of the Cleveland and changed the block to be more for trucks and bigger cars that used to have 385 series motors. I'm not saying that the W is only good for trucks; it's a fine motor. The differences aren't that huge. The aftermarket has made W style blocks with Cleveland mains and with a big stroker kit you can utilize the taller deck to your advantage if you want to optimize a Windsor engine.

another edit: I should go into the oiling myths, but that's too much typing!!

 

[StangDreamin']

another edit: I should go into the oiling myths, but that's too much typing!!

That would be interesting; as there are literally tons of documents "out there" - including a Cleveland performance book that I found and ordered for myself - that cover the "oiling issue". The author is very fond of the Cleve and thinks it gets a bad rap all too often; yet he outlines oiling improvements such as restrictors and the oil crossover line as "simple fixes to solve this production issue". Oil to the mains is an issue I believe; and the C in my XR7 will be getting the oil crossover before it goes back on the road. It has about 500 miles on a fresh bottom end - because main bearings three and four were shot to the point of car-shaking thumps -so I'm not going to tear it completely apart just yet. But eventually it will be coming apart (roller conversion, among other things); and the resctrictors will be going into the cam gallery at that time, along with a good Melling pump.

This will be my second Cleveland - and again with 2V heads being fed with a 4V carb and I'm expecting the same great results. Oiling never appeared to be an issue with my '73 Gran Torino; but I've read about it too many times and experienced it once (My Cougar's PO lived in my house for almost two years and was even my son-in-law 11 months after that, and I was the one that told him it needed to be rebuilt before he destroyed it); so it seems rather foolish not to address the oiling system.
That and the 2-piece valves - a couple of highly competent engine guys back in Tucson grumbled at me about those valves. One of them later sent me a letter with pictures of the work he did for the Gran's next owner; including the new sleeve in #3 cylinder - the stub of the stem created quite a gouge in the cylinder wall, along with poking a hole in the piston top. One piece valves (probably Manley's, unless I'm convinced of a better product) will be part of the roller conversion.

 

[rbohm]

the only problem with the cleveland oiling system is that it hits the cam and lifters before the mains. not a problem until you get in the high rpm ranges where the racers run. for racing you really only need a high pressure oil pump and an oil restrictor kit. in the top level race classes there have been some interesting ways to prevent problems with oiling the mains using external manifolds that are fed from a pressure tap off the oil filter, and drilling the block straight through to the main bearings to oil them directly. for the street even the restrictor kit isnt necessary.

 

[Hack]

Yeah if you get up over 7,000 rpm regularly you want to do some oiling mods. There's an oiling mod thread on the first page of the Network 54 forum I linked in my first post on this thread. If you're going to run a solid lifter cam and do a max effort racing build you will want to do mods. If you're running hydros and staying under 6,200 rpms - the external line is easy to do, I'd probably still do that. No changes would be needed below 6,200 rpms, though.

One problem some people run into is thinking that a high volume pump is a good idea, but not considering that you will need more oil volume to keep from running the pan dry.

Anyhoo, there are a lot of myths with regards to oiling IMO at least as many as the other aspects of the Cleveland. I think a lot of it comes from the types of people who build engines - we like to tinker and try things. It's fun to really tear into something and improve it, whether you really have to or not. I also have to say that I'd always rather over build than under build pretty much anything.

 

[StangDreamin']

Y'know,I ran the he!! outta my Gran; never gave the oiling system a thought - as long as the needle kinda stayed in the middle or top of that precision bare-bones 1973 factory gauge And it never gave me anything resembling a problem, either! The only time that I know about anything going wrong on that Cleve was when it sucked the bottom half of the #3 exhaust valve 14 months after I sold it.

But the Cleve in the Cougar I have now..... with not as many miles on it; spun/squashed the #'s 4 & 5 main bearings. I'm a little leary of it, to say the least! But I knew where the Gran had been and what had been done to it. I got it from my oldest brother (a Civil Engineer); and he bought it from the original owner, which was the company that he worked for. It came with a box including the original invoice and every oil change/belt/battery/tires from its original purchase 'til he gave me the box 6 years and 10 months after it was first driven off the lot! Conversely, I have no freakin' clue about what happened with the Cougar for the 32 years and change before the former "Lump on my Couch" laid eyes on it. A couple of brass fittings and a bent-up chunk of steel fuel line running along one valve cover to the oil pressure sender seems like it can't hurt; and might just help at even 4500 RPM.

No, I'm not going to an HV pump. Not going to a blue-printed pump! Just something better than what came with his $725 NAPA "rebuild kit". If that doesn't happen right away and the new Autometer oil gauge doesn't make any sudden "drops" when I coast up to a stoplight; it's all good.