I will be designing a hub to go with that bracket/caliper/rotor combo. I can't honestly or accurately say when this project will be done. I have MANY irons in the fire.
Mustang Drop Spindles
- Thread starter degins
- Start date
I will be designing a hub to go with that bracket/caliper/rotor combo. I can't honestly or accurately say when this project will be done. I have MANY irons in the fire.
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Sponsors (?)
Actually, I doubt how many people who currently have big brake kits on their drum spindles would run out and buy dropped spindles. What would be the benefit for them?
It would lower their car 1.5", but I have yet to see a Mustang with 13" Baer or Wilwood brakes that still has the stock ride height.
It would also allow them to put on wide wheels with a lot of backspacing without using a spacer. However, they already have wheels on their car that clear both their brakes and their suspension. So, in order to benefit from the new spindle, they would need to put their old springs back in (unless they want to lower their car another 1.5") and they have to buy new wheels.
I think there will be more interest from people who don't have any upgrades yet. The new spindle allows them to use SN95 Mustang brakes (available everywhere for decent prices) for the price of what most others charge for just brackets.
It would lower their car 1.5", but I have yet to see a Mustang with 13" Baer or Wilwood brakes that still has the stock ride height.
It would also allow them to put on wide wheels with a lot of backspacing without using a spacer. However, they already have wheels on their car that clear both their brakes and their suspension. So, in order to benefit from the new spindle, they would need to put their old springs back in (unless they want to lower their car another 1.5") and they have to buy new wheels.
I think there will be more interest from people who don't have any upgrades yet. The new spindle allows them to use SN95 Mustang brakes (available everywhere for decent prices) for the price of what most others charge for just brackets.
If the spindle accepts a 99-04 Mustang GT caliper, then the SN95 Cobra caliper should also bolt on (Mustang Cobras used the same spindle as the regular ones), so radially, it would already be in the correct position for a 13" rotor. It would then just require a spacer to move the caliper towards to wheel to compensate for the shallow hat of the Cobra rotor (on a drum hub).
Another option would be to use a SN95 rotor for the GT calipers too. However, they don't fit the drum hubs (the id of the hat is too small.
A new hub that accepts the both the 11" GT and the 13" Cobra rotors and a spindle that accepts the respective calipers would be a sweet solution. Then the whole setup bolts right on. One disadvantage might be that the shallow hats may lead to caliper-wheel interference when vintage style wheels are used.
70vert
New Member
Main reason: Larger wheels, more backspace
Degins: for your time's sake, only the first paragraph is important for your business.
First, I should state that I am fine paying more for a bracket made by Degins for the caliper on my 13" Baer/PBR brakes. Hopefully it is available when spindle is available. If not, off to a machinist I go, preferably one who has my personal safety as his highest priority. Especially if I ever :Track:
I want Degins to make money, as everyone does. But I do see a lot of Pro-Touring guys buying this product. If the primary reason for the product is the use of wider wheels with more backspace, then that says "Pro Touring" to me. Pro-Touring/G-machine guys have big brakes. Are they poseurs? maybe. Am I pro-touring style? maybe. In any case, many of those guys will have 13s and R&P. And some would love to run wider front wheels/tires.
As far as "they already have wheels on their car that clear both their brakes/suspension", not so fast buddy!
Mine just barely clear until I really stomp on the Baers, and then I get a scrape on the right side from upper ball joint knuckle to inside of rim. Spacers don't work, and I have ground the knuckle as far as I am comfortable. 17x8", 4.75 bs, Coy's C-67 wheel, Unique Performance coilovers. yeah, a unique case, but I am sure there are other schmucks like me with a big upper knuckle and too much BS. That sentence could be taken a few ways I am sure. 
Until then, I am scrape-scrape-scrapin along when I brake hard. My only other choices are 4 new rims of a different style, new coilovers, or just waiting for spindle+bracket. The wallet says "wait".
Degins: for your time's sake, only the first paragraph is important for your business.
First, I should state that I am fine paying more for a bracket made by Degins for the caliper on my 13" Baer/PBR brakes. Hopefully it is available when spindle is available. If not, off to a machinist I go, preferably one who has my personal safety as his highest priority. Especially if I ever :Track:
I want Degins to make money, as everyone does. But I do see a lot of Pro-Touring guys buying this product. If the primary reason for the product is the use of wider wheels with more backspace, then that says "Pro Touring" to me. Pro-Touring/G-machine guys have big brakes. Are they poseurs? maybe. Am I pro-touring style? maybe. In any case, many of those guys will have 13s and R&P. And some would love to run wider front wheels/tires.
As far as "they already have wheels on their car that clear both their brakes/suspension", not so fast buddy!
Mine just barely clear until I really stomp on the Baers, and then I get a scrape on the right side from upper ball joint knuckle to inside of rim. Spacers don't work, and I have ground the knuckle as far as I am comfortable. 17x8", 4.75 bs, Coy's C-67 wheel, Unique Performance coilovers. yeah, a unique case, but I am sure there are other schmucks like me with a big upper knuckle and too much BS. That sentence could be taken a few ways I am sure. Until then, I am scrape-scrape-scrapin along when I brake hard. My only other choices are 4 new rims of a different style, new coilovers, or just waiting for spindle+bracket. The wallet says "wait".
As far as "they already have wheels on their car that clear both their brakes/suspension", not so fast buddy!
Well, every rule needs an exception to confirm it
I guess that is my point. I guess many would say "I wish those dropped spindles were around when I did my suspension and bought my wheels and brakes", but not all that many would buy them so that they can install yet another $1500 set of wheels + tires.
BTW, if your Baer brakes use PBR calipers, would they possibly have the same bolt pattern as the Cobra calipers? In that case your stuff would even fit the spindles degins is planning to make, right?
Well, every rule needs an exception to confirm it
I guess that is my point. I guess many would say "I wish those dropped spindles were around when I did my suspension and bought my wheels and brakes", but not all that many would buy them so that they can install yet another $1500 set of wheels + tires.
BTW, if your Baer brakes use PBR calipers, would they possibly have the same bolt pattern as the Cobra calipers? In that case your stuff would even fit the spindles degins is planning to make, right?
the standard 2 piston PBR has a different bolt pattern than the cobra caliper so that wouldn't work.
My interest in the dropped spindles is to correct the geometry of a lowered car. The more the car is lowered, the less travel is available to that car. Using a dropped spindle allows me to lower the car while still maintaining adequate suspension travel. I see this as almost as big a reason to use the spindles as being able to run wider tires.
Seriously, how many cars already on the road have you seen with inadequate suspension travel in order to get "the Stance"? Going to two or three car shows a week in So Cal, I see quite a few cars that would benefit.
Purposely designing a product to NOT appeal to the widest possible audience seems like a mistake to me.
I have a background in manufacturing so I understand the economics of the situation. You want to make sure that the people who buy your spindle also buy your brake kits. I understand this.
One of the reasons I routinely recommend your company is the quality and completeness of your Granada disc brake kit. There is no better bang for the buck currently available for an old Mustang with drum brakes. However, I wasn't looking for a complete kit when I discovered your company. I was looking for a Granada spindle for a friend. He ended up buying your complete kit because of it.
I have been looking for a dropped spindle for about 5 years. Fatman makes a 2" dropped spindle designed for Granada brakes. But that is not what most of the people I talk to want.
Having the only dropped spindle available that will allow them to use any type of brake kit would seem like you would get 100% of the market looking for a dropped spindle. Also offer offering complete kits at a competitive price would snag you a much larger set of customers, without artificially limiting your potential sales.
Like I said, I am in for one set ASAP either way. I would be looking at at least 3 sets if it has a removable bracket rather than a cast in bracket.
Seriously, how many cars already on the road have you seen with inadequate suspension travel in order to get "the Stance"? Going to two or three car shows a week in So Cal, I see quite a few cars that would benefit.
Purposely designing a product to NOT appeal to the widest possible audience seems like a mistake to me.
I have a background in manufacturing so I understand the economics of the situation. You want to make sure that the people who buy your spindle also buy your brake kits. I understand this.
One of the reasons I routinely recommend your company is the quality and completeness of your Granada disc brake kit. There is no better bang for the buck currently available for an old Mustang with drum brakes. However, I wasn't looking for a complete kit when I discovered your company. I was looking for a Granada spindle for a friend. He ended up buying your complete kit because of it.
I have been looking for a dropped spindle for about 5 years. Fatman makes a 2" dropped spindle designed for Granada brakes. But that is not what most of the people I talk to want.
Having the only dropped spindle available that will allow them to use any type of brake kit would seem like you would get 100% of the market looking for a dropped spindle. Also offer offering complete kits at a competitive price would snag you a much larger set of customers, without artificially limiting your potential sales.
Like I said, I am in for one set ASAP either way. I would be looking at at least 3 sets if it has a removable bracket rather than a cast in bracket.
very good point on the suspension travel, that also is one of my main concerns as well. also, this spindle will allow to run a wider wheel but still with my 15" riken mesh wheels, i'll have to send the fronts out to have them widened but i'm okay with that. also using the drum spindle would allow me to use any brake kit that i'd want. ultimately i would like to use the early Boss T/A style 12" 4 piston brakes on the car but for right now i'll use the 11" brakes with a PBR caliper, by using a seperate bracket it would allow me to sell the PBR's and 11" rotors at some future point to help offset the cost of the 12" brake kit. i'm not at all sure i'll ever upgrade to the 12" brakes but it would be very nice to have that option.
I've looked at the Cobra brake situation carefully. This has affirmed my decision to cast an integral universal caliper bracket into the drop spindle. I examined 2 popular brackets offered for adding Corbra brakes to Mustang drum spindles. These place the caliper and rotor unnecessarily outboard and add considerably to the inertial affects of the unsprung mass presented by the Cobra bracket/caliper/rotor. Using these brackets, the rotor disc resides over an inch further outboard than the with the Granada or KH system. This is not acceptable. My design will move the disc/caliper/bracket inboard 1.1". More later.
So will you use a non-Cobra disc, or a different hub?
Kind of interesting that Ford did not consider the "unsprung mass issue" important enough to move it further in (especially since the Cobra was their flag ship track car at the time).
Maybe they felt the the smaller hat area provided enough weight saving, and additional strength not to warrant it.
Kind of interesting that Ford did not consider the "unsprung mass issue" important enough to move it further in (especially since the Cobra was their flag ship track car at the time).
Maybe they felt the the smaller hat area provided enough weight saving, and additional strength not to warrant it.
70vert
New Member
66Runt,
I believe the Cobra brake referred to is a SN95 Mustang Cobra brake, not an original '60s Shelby Cobra. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe the Cobra brake referred to is a SN95 Mustang Cobra brake, not an original '60s Shelby Cobra. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ford obviously did not constrain themselve by considering 65-66 applications when they designed the 94 SN95 and Cobra applications. Why is it "interesting" that the SN95 spindle has different geometry than the early ones. My comments about "rotor disc resides over an inch further outboard" refer to the SN95 rotor on a SN65 spindle. I don't doubt that the Cobra disc is well suited to the intended application (SN95).
The rotor disc will be positioned about 1.1-2" inboard from where it resides with other brackets I examined. This will require a different rotor.
StangDreamin'
Founding Member
Subscribing.
I've been watching this thread without subscribing; because I wasn't sure I wanted to "drop" the front of my '73 XR7. Been looking at ultrastang's SN94 Cobra rear brake kit for the Coog; "But how to do the Cobra's in front?" Now, I see that it could be done; along with gently lowering the Cougar while still retaining full suspension travel. Don't have new wheels yet; was looking at 16's; but I'm hearing good things about tire availability with 17's.........
Yeah, I'm the type of guy Dennis is talking about.
But, keep in mind I don't even remotely expect that I'm like everyone (or anyone) else.
Now, about those "different rotors".
Can those be kept "OEM" (from any mfg) and remotely "common"? For some unGodly-known reason (other than my Irish luck turning towards Murphy), I can see me somehow shattering a rotor in Payson (or Globe, or Gila Bend), AZ or even Busted Flat, Nebraska. Will I stand a chance of walking into some parts house and getting another one off the shelf to get myself home?
Can I steal one from SVTCobra306's sled to do the job?
(Apparently not, on that last idea.)
I'd bet there are "a few" guys like me on that last particular topic line out there.
I've been watching this thread without subscribing; because I wasn't sure I wanted to "drop" the front of my '73 XR7. Been looking at ultrastang's SN94 Cobra rear brake kit for the Coog; "But how to do the Cobra's in front?" Now, I see that it could be done; along with gently lowering the Cougar while still retaining full suspension travel. Don't have new wheels yet; was looking at 16's; but I'm hearing good things about tire availability with 17's.........
Yeah, I'm the type of guy Dennis is talking about.
But, keep in mind I don't even remotely expect that I'm like everyone (or anyone) else. Now, about those "different rotors".
Can those be kept "OEM" (from any mfg) and remotely "common"? For some unGodly-known reason (other than my Irish luck turning towards Murphy), I can see me somehow shattering a rotor in Payson (or Globe, or Gila Bend), AZ or even Busted Flat, Nebraska. Will I stand a chance of walking into some parts house and getting another one off the shelf to get myself home?
Can I steal one from SVTCobra306's sled to do the job? (Apparently not, on that last idea.)
I'd bet there are "a few" guys like me on that last particular topic line out there.
You are not the only person with this concern. As part of a private message to Dennis, I stated:
"I have been searching for a quality dropped spindle for quite some time. But I do not want to get trapped in a kit that uses proprietary parts that may not be available at a common parts store 5 years from now. I already have enough pieces of high dollar equipment that are now obsolete because the manufacturer of the consumable is no longer in business. "
I hope that people who are watching this thread communicate your opinions of this project to Dennis so that he will have a good cross section of ideas about the direction this project is going. He has my opinions. Now he needs yours. Approval, encouragement, creative suggestions, etc. The more replies he gets, the more of an informed decision he will be able to make.
"I have been searching for a quality dropped spindle for quite some time. But I do not want to get trapped in a kit that uses proprietary parts that may not be available at a common parts store 5 years from now. I already have enough pieces of high dollar equipment that are now obsolete because the manufacturer of the consumable is no longer in business. "
I hope that people who are watching this thread communicate your opinions of this project to Dennis so that he will have a good cross section of ideas about the direction this project is going. He has my opinions. Now he needs yours. Approval, encouragement, creative suggestions, etc. The more replies he gets, the more of an informed decision he will be able to make.
Subscribing.
I've been watching this thread without subscribing; because I wasn't sure I wanted to "drop" the front of my '73 XR7. Been looking at ultrastang's SN94 Cobra rear brake kit for the Coog; "But how to do the Cobra's in front?" Now, I see that it could be done; along with gently lowering the Cougar while still retaining full suspension travel. Don't have new wheels yet; was looking at 16's; but I'm hearing good things about tire availability with 17's.........
Yeah, I'm the type of guy Dennis is talking about.
Now, about those "different rotors".
Can those be kept "OEM" (from any mfg) and remotely "common"? For some unGodly-known reason (other than my Irish luck turning towards Murphy), I can see me somehow shattering a rotor in Payson (or Globe, or Gila Bend), AZ or even Busted Flat, Nebraska. Will I stand a chance of walking into some parts house and getting another one off the shelf to get myself home?
(Apparently not, on that last idea.)
I'd bet there are "a few" guys like me on that last particular topic line out there.
For all of those who have called into question my design and business decisions, I have a business strategy that has worked for me in the last 2 years. I intend to produce excellent quality economical brake conversion kits for our early Mustang. I will design and manufacture them in a way that is allows me to offer the product at a very competitive price. I have many years experience with manufacturing, and manufacturing development. I have experienced countless product development and market introduction champaigns.
I solicited opinion for this product and I have analyzed the market for the drop spindle. I have come to the following conclusions.
1) Most users express a desire for a spindle that shifts the wheel up 1-2" , or enough to allow larger diameter and wider wheels to clear the upper control arm and ball joint. This by far is the primary concern.
2) Most users express the desire to use performance calipers/rotor sets with the spindle. This is a very important concern. By far, the current choice for performance is the Ford 13" rotor using the PBR aluminum sliding caliper commonly used on SN95 Cobra, Mach, and Bullitt.
3) Many users expressed the desire for an economical solution. I share this concern.
4) Some users express the desire for a R&P compatible spindle. A R&P spindle could be an important product, but it must wait for a later design iteration.
I have address the 3 design/product goals. The spindle will have a 1.5" "drop". The spindle will directly mount a KH 4 piston caliper, will directly mount a GT SN95 PBR caliper/bracket (no intermediate bracket parts), and will accept my version of a bracket to allow the mounting of the "Cobra" caliper/bracket. I will produce a rotor (probably with a reinforced cast in hub) that will bring the caliper and rotor disc surface 1-2" closer to the car midline, as compared to the 2 leading competitor brackets.
A number of posters have stated that I am limiting the type of calipers that are available for mounting, as compared to the 70-73 Ford Mustang drum spindle. I don't see this. What other calipers? SSBC? Baer? Brimbo? I am not concerned with fringe products. If a market for mounting these calipers exist, then a bracket product will materialize. I prefer to offer an ECONOMICAL solution to the design goals. I am not in the business of merely redesigning the Ford spindle.
I appreciate those of you concerned with the success of the project, but I also appreciate that many of you are more concerned that your existing big brake parts won't work with this spindle. This is a valid concern, and perhaps I'll be able to make some consideration for these users. That said, I am 100% sure that the vast majority of early Mustang users (this being the hundreds of thousands of owners not reading forums) that may be considering a big brake swap will appreciate the economical complete product approach and will give no thought to the applicability of competing parts. I have and will offer replacement rotors and other replacement parts at a reasonable price; overnight shipment available.
Marketing hype
The '94-'04 Ford Cobra rotor sits where it sits in relation to the wheel, no matter what car it's mounted on. My point was in relation to your marketing line of "reducing unsprung weight". If you designed a different hub, you could *effectively* reduce the unsprung weight. This would be in keeping with your earlier comment of reducing unsprung weight, if your hub is lighter.
If you use a rotor with a deeper hat, you increase unsprung weight, because you increase the weight of the rotor by the amount of additional material. Doesn't make a hill of beans difference that it's mounted further inboard. It's still "unsprung weight".
I guess I just don't like marketing B.S., especially when it comes from someone who has been doing a great job of not getting caught up in that trap, and has done an excellent job of providing quality products.
On the other hand. By using a deeper hatted rotor, you open a great oportunity for choice of wheels. The V.V. kit and M.S. kit limit your choice of wheels, which is a big issue as it effects the spare wheel as well.
That in my opinion is a huge advantage over your competitors.
Good luck with the kit.
The '94-'04 Ford Cobra rotor sits where it sits in relation to the wheel, no matter what car it's mounted on. My point was in relation to your marketing line of "reducing unsprung weight". If you designed a different hub, you could *effectively* reduce the unsprung weight. This would be in keeping with your earlier comment of reducing unsprung weight, if your hub is lighter.
If you use a rotor with a deeper hat, you increase unsprung weight, because you increase the weight of the rotor by the amount of additional material. Doesn't make a hill of beans difference that it's mounted further inboard. It's still "unsprung weight".
I guess I just don't like marketing B.S., especially when it comes from someone who has been doing a great job of not getting caught up in that trap, and has done an excellent job of providing quality products.
On the other hand. By using a deeper hatted rotor, you open a great oportunity for choice of wheels. The V.V. kit and M.S. kit limit your choice of wheels, which is a big issue as it effects the spare wheel as well.
That in my opinion is a huge advantage over your competitors.
Good luck with the kit.
StangDreamin'
Founding Member
Dennis, really; my only concern was the availabilty of replacement rotors. You have (somewhat) addressed that term. No complaints.
Taking another tack (and because I got lost in the various discussions leading up to this point); do you foresee a similar issue with the SN95/GT rotors that would require an aftermarket (probably you) replacement?
I'm also a bit confused, that is by the mostly argumentative nature of the discussion.
I understand your inference about the SN95 rotor. It suffers the same problems as the Cobra rotor does upon application to a SN65 spindle. I will not be using it with the SN95 caliper application.
StangDreamin'
Founding Member
One of the things I've learned (often "the hard way"); is that when you're dealing with a bunch of committed enthusiasts (read:fanatics) such as those of us around here, there are very tightly held - not to mention very diverse -opinions of "What is exactly right!". Look at other discussions as people are working on their Mustangs.... "Getting rid of Ford's cheap xxxxxxxxxx!" "Why did they do that???" etc, etc, etc. Your original-design drop spindles met one of those first needs.
When the idea of making them "drum-type" spindles came up; "cries of joy!" as they would accomodate so many different brake designs that were already adapted to the drum spindle. This was important; because there are so many diverse designs, and so many diverse "backers" of each design. "FRE's disk-conversion is better than Acme's!" "Yeah, but the Thunder-chicken big brakes are great, even better if you use Chevro-mob-lac calipers!" You were serving a here it comes again) diverse market. You actually had even me initially, because I couldn't find any entity that had a solution for my factory disc spindles to go to larger brakes. The only thing that at first caused me to balk was the "drop" - I wasn't so sure that I wanted to lower my Coug. Plans change, I'm a convert.
If you think this is bad; you should live in my world; with two other competitors in the "Internet Broadband" market. We're less expensive (by half)than both; but
1.)The speed numbers on our price-leader product are "lower' than the cable company (that's deceptive because of the different delivery configurations, but subject of another discussion)
2.) You have to plug our modems into a phone jack. No the TV cable won't work (wrong company); and they don't pull the internet out of thin air (the third company).
Still I end up taking "It won't work! (because I don't have a phone jack near my computer)" calls; as well as "It's too slow! (Because, at 3AM on a Tuesday with everybody else in bed, the cable modem gives me real 3Mb/second on "Bob's Broadband Speed Test Page"; whereas your cheap-a$$ product only gives me 1.5!)"
"Yes, but ours does 1.5 all day, regardless of what time it is or who else is on!" The fact that we sell 7Mb service as well, doesn't come into play; because "It costs almost as much as a cable-modem!"
Diversity - ain't it a wonderful thing? Everybody has their own opinions about what is right; and you know what they say about opinions - even yours and mine.
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