Mr_Q
Founding Member
okay so wait im confused. do we now have streetable non exotic off the shelf parts to get 400rwhp n/a?
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400 HP AT THE WHEELS ALL MOTOR,"YES"!!
- Thread starter ranger04
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JDM Engineering got 401 rwhp with a 298 3 valve 07 GT, with a set of comp cams new phase limiter cams. The car was completely street legal, it passed emissions testing. They make these cams for n/a or fi 4.6 3 valve motors. They have 3 stages from mild to wild. The phase limiters allow the cams to work with the cvt so as not to loose bottom end or mid range. They got 80 hp just from the cam set up. So if they got 401 at the wheels with a stroked 4.6, they should be close to 400 hp at the flywheel on a stock block. These cams are available now, just go to comp cams web site. 60-80 hp is an awesome bump from a set of cams. It brings that 400 hp mark ever so close on a 4.6. That magical 400 hp all motor is so close you can taste it. A set of these cams, LT headers, intake and tune, pluse P&P heads and you should be there. On a stroker you'll be way over 400 hp like JDM has shown. Thier motor should be a round 430 hp at the flywheel, some where in there. I don't remember if thier heads were stock, but I'm thinking they were. Really the only piece of the puzzle were missing, is a good aftermarket intake manifold, that would for sure put the 4.6 over the top.
Mr_Q
Founding Member
Awesome news, will look in to this. I also like that most of these are transparent. Nothing too different under the hood to see.
My car with the Sutton set up is non exotic parts at 380rwhp. I went to Rt. 66 dragstrip Saturday and got rained out. So I took the car to look at apartments in downtown Chicago. I'd say if I can drive it downtown in traffic its pretty streetable.
blacksheep06
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- Jan 31, 2006
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When you start talking about stroker kits, P&P heads, intake manifolds, and cams with phasers all I can thik of is OUCH! Got to put a hurting on the wallet. Unless you can do all the labor yourself I don't see any advantage over a blower other than not having the associated heat and stress from boost.
I'm not being an ass I'm just curious as to why some of you would want to go this route? I think bolt ons are great, maybe even some NSR cams but considering the price of parts and labor I'm not exactly blown away by the power numbers I'm seeing from engine work on a 281. Not to mention the downtime of the car.
I'm not being an ass I'm just curious as to why some of you would want to go this route? I think bolt ons are great, maybe even some NSR cams but considering the price of parts and labor I'm not exactly blown away by the power numbers I'm seeing from engine work on a 281. Not to mention the downtime of the car.
You are 100% right. Building an N/A motor is not cost effective nor will it make the biggest numbers.
In fact, NOBODY has ever posted a dyno sheet showing 400RWHP from a N/A 281 motor.
There are some folks that just dont want forced induction for whatever reason, but they will never be able to compete with the FI cars.
As far as I am concerned, a supercharger is a bolt-on modification. When you go inside the engine and change compression or cubic inches then that would not be a bolt-on modification but a MODIFIED ENGINE. Anytime you are looking for maximum performance from a small engine FI is the best choice.
Simple answer is its something different. For me, with the exception of the heads and cams, its been all bolt ons. So down time has never been an issue. Then down the road if I want FI I can swap in blower cams and be set to go.
fartingchicken
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- Sep 11, 2007
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Anyone can make power with fi, thats not the true worth of an engine, you can turbo charge a pinto and make it fast. The old school way is to see where you can pull every bit of power out of your engine. Most of these parts that us n/a guy's are talking about, the fi guy's put on thier cars anyway. The fi guys still talk about adding cams and headers and so on. So how is fi saving you money if your still gonna add bolt on's anyway? In my case, I want to see how much power I can get from my engine, not my blower. The other reason is, we would like to match the power of the new challenger and camaro without power aiders, so they don't have that you won because you have a blower excuss. If you can take them out with all motor and smaller displaement, then you have done something to be proud of, a real achievemnt. A motor build doesn't depend on anything else to work, like a blower belt. All motor gives you a sense of pride, you have achieved something great, it's ford against dodge, not kenny bell against pro-charger. It is a big deal to hit 400 hp all motor, it is no big deal to hit 400 hp with fi, anyone can do that.
Well my old school way has always been to use the best technology available to make the most power. I did that in 1976 and I do it today. I dont give a rats ass if some wimpy Chevy guy cries if I have a blower, as long as he is looking at my back bumper.
It is run what you brung on the street and dont think for a minute that the real gearheads wont be putting forced induction on the Chevies and Dodges. I have already seen a Challenger with twin turbos. The Z-28 will be supercharged. Good luck competing with a 6.1 liter with forced induction because a naturally aspirated S-197 will be at a big disadvantage to those cars.
Many forced induction S197 are on stock cams and heads and still making huge power.
It is run what you brung on the street and dont think for a minute that the real gearheads wont be putting forced induction on the Chevies and Dodges. I have already seen a Challenger with twin turbos. The Z-28 will be supercharged. Good luck competing with a 6.1 liter with forced induction because a naturally aspirated S-197 will be at a big disadvantage to those cars.
Many forced induction S197 are on stock cams and heads and still making huge power.
Thats all well and good, but some of us perfere all motor. With fi or not, there will allways be someone faster any way. We are just looking for a good solid 400 hp from our motors with no tricks involved. I have nothing against fi if thats what you choose to do, I just perfere to get my power the old fashioned way. There's a certain amount of satisfaction that comes with building all motor power. Back in the 70's, turbo's were unheard of, and dragsters and funny cars had blowers, the average racer went motor to motor. To each his own, but I would just like to find the limits of my engine without fi. As new parts keep comming out, hp numbers will keep climbing and I believe 400 hp will be common soon on just motor. However, your free to make power however you wish, it's a free country.
blacksheep06
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- Jan 31, 2006
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Might as well just wait for the 400 hp 5.0 and buy a new car if you have to have all motor. I'd feel like s*** if I spent that much money building up my 281 and then got spanked by a stock 2011 GT with a factory warranty.
UrbanRedneck
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- Mar 27, 2008
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I thought you guys were talking about 400 RWHP... THat's over 460 at the crankshaft, which is 100 hp per liter.. The 2011 GT or whatever is supposed to have 400 at the crank, not the wheels... I would think 400 RWHP from a 4.6 is pretty impressive. Sure it's a loooot of money to get there (especially when an LS1 can do it with stock heads, bolt ons and a cam), but cool nonetheless. Me personally I'd like 325 or so NA, but after that, if I was spending 5 grand anyway, it'd be on a blower or a stroker. BTW 400 crankshaft horsepower is like 340ish at the wheels. Plenty of guys with cams and stock heads are over that mark. So ranger4 if all you want is 400 at the engine, you don't need to go this far...
A good blower cost 5 grand and if the belt breaks your back to nothing, not to mention the added heat and stress. JDM Engineering made 401 rwhp with just a set of comp cam phase limiter cams on a 298 stroker. You can get a 5.0 stroker for 3,200, the cams are around 800.00, so were talking about the same amount of money for all motor or a good blower. However, you don't have to do a stroker, thats optional and still get close to 400. Also there's a couple of intake manifolds in the works. JDM made 401 at the rear wheels and still passed emissions on a street legal car. I don't know what that would = out to at the crank, but sure sounds impressive to me. It's nothing worth arguing over, like I say, to each his own. I don't want a new car, I just want the one I have to hit 400 hp. My 07 will be the last stang I buy as I'm no spring chicken. It will be my life long project car to tinker and play with. I allready have too much money invested in it to off it and start again or do I need to. Turbo's and super chargers are fine, but there's something to be said for a good well built motor making power all on it's own. It's exciting to get into the high 12's with just a hurst shifter, 4:30 gears, an aluminum drive shaft and drag radials. With each mod you do drops your et is cool. Going all motor lets you build your engine in steps, next will be a tune and intake, then long tubes, cams and so foruth, or you can do it all in one crack with fi. All otor lets be build the motor in steps as money allows, but to each his own.
Yeah... And did you know JDM's car has Higher than stock compression. Any way you look at it, its cheaper to get a blower. In our car's it will be a while down the road before you can beat a FI car with a N/A car dollar for dollar, power for power. Not to mention the up-keep on a high compression N/A car versus a built blower car. Talk N/A up all you want. Dollar per hp, blower wins everytime. So what if you have to build a motor for a blower? Your building a motor N/A that is going to cost just as much if not MORE than a blower motor so you can see a measly 400 rwhp? Frick that! Besides... JDM only has ONE car that makes 401 rwhp. When they can make it repeatable, that will be something. But right now. I'm still not that impressed.
But like you said. To each his own. But in my opinion trying to make big power on a 281, 289, 302, whatever, a blower is the only thing that is going to keep you running with the big boys.
Also, how does a blower not let you build your car in steps???? Buy the blower, make the number (400hp whatever). That gets boring. Step two, build the motor, oh look now I have a built motor and 500++++ horsepower easy. Do that N/A and I'll be impressed.
But like you said. To each his own. But in my opinion trying to make big power on a 281, 289, 302, whatever, a blower is the only thing that is going to keep you running with the big boys.
Also, how does a blower not let you build your car in steps???? Buy the blower, make the number (400hp whatever). That gets boring. Step two, build the motor, oh look now I have a built motor and 500++++ horsepower easy. Do that N/A and I'll be impressed.
blacksheep06
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- Jan 31, 2006
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As you say, to each his own but I'm just throwing out some food for thought.
401 rwhp out of a 298 is probably going to feel like a dog in the lower rpm's. That's something to think about if your car isn't a track only car.
The other thing is that the 3v 4.6 is rated at 300 hp but is plain simple and cheap to get to 300 rwhp. It would probably be a safe bet that you could get an easy 400 rwhp out of the new 5.0 with a few cheap bolt on's and still have a very streetable car with far less money in it than your built 4.6. And probably less problems too.
Not a spring chicken? We're only talking a couple years here, you should still be able to see at night by then.
hopefully Ford doesn't kill the larger V8's rumored to go into the next gen Mustangs. i've heard the new 5.0 is supposed to get better gas mileage than the 4.6L. hope it's true.
anthony05gt
Active Member
I can see both sides on this issue. I like and have F/I, but I really do appreciate ''all motor''. That's what we all had back in the day with our 60's cars. I really miss the sound of cams at idle. That's just what a muscle car should sound like IMO. I'm looking at cams right now for my F/I '05. Just trying to decide which ones to go with considering possible other internal work in the future. One way or the other I'll be putting my own cams in after the weather breaks and re-tuning.
As far as 400 rwhp goes....I still say a stock bottom end 281 CID will get close, but won't quite hit that mark. I would like to see it though.
As far as 400 rwhp goes....I still say a stock bottom end 281 CID will get close, but won't quite hit that mark. I would like to see it though.
Check out the new comp cams with the phase limiter, there the hotest cams going for our cars right now. Sutton is close to 400 hp and he isn't using the phase limiter cams, also there's a couple intake manifolds fixing to come out, this combo could be enough to put us over the top. Were getting closer every day. It isn't hard with a 298=302 stroker, a few guy's are making over 400 hp with strokers, JDM is making 401 RWHP with a 298 stroker and the phase limiter cams and passed emissions.
Thinking out loud here...
Can someone add up bone stock start to finish what it would cost to get 400 rwhp on motor alone w/ a 281 ci? Lets assume everything(parts, dyno tune, labor) will be done by the shop...
You one can get a Vortech..for $3,400 plus labor to install and dyno tune for a total of about $4,500..and get 410-440(5spd) whp..
I am going to "guess" and say in the area of maybe $8,000??? Thats taking heads, cams, CAI, tuner, pulleys and any other exaust mod or otherwise to get to 400 whp..
Can someone add up bone stock start to finish what it would cost to get 400 rwhp on motor alone w/ a 281 ci? Lets assume everything(parts, dyno tune, labor) will be done by the shop...
You one can get a Vortech
..for $3,400 plus labor to install and dyno tune for a total of about $4,500..and get 410-440(5spd) whp..I am going to "guess" and say in the area of maybe $8,000??? Thats taking heads, cams, CAI, tuner, pulleys and any other exaust mod or otherwise to get to 400 whp..
