LS1 Heads on a Ford

[D.Hearne]

But I haven't really heard anyone say what major advantages there are to fitting LS1 heads on a SBF. Granted the LS1 is one heck of a motor, but what advantages are there to puting just the heads on the SBF. aren't there some aftermarket heads that would perform the same that would just bolt right on?? ANSWER THE QUESTION!


granted, the concept that Started this whole conversation is what TRUE hotrodding is about. at the time, there weren't a whole lot of aftermarket choices and guys mixed and matched technology from other cars to produce more hp. but in this modern day and age, wouldn't it be easier and (i would) feel much more comfortable putting on something that was specifically designed for a SBF?? but thats throwing out the adventure part of the deal, which is part of the reason why i kinda like the idea

I guess you missed the whole thing that started it. The guy doing the swap paid $75 for the LS1 heads. Does that answer your question?????

 

[bnickel]

bnickel--------have you driven a 3V 5.4 or a V10 3V ? (just askin cause I'm too lazy to go back and reread all this again ) The 3V is a far cry from the 2V in terms of power. The only one I've driven so far is my 06 Stang and while it ain't a truck, it will tow an 800 lb trailer @120 mph + And do it from a dead stop without effort. Had a friend laugh when I did a burnout with the trailer behind it. He said that's the first time he's ever seen that happen. Averaged 23 mpg last trip to Colorado doing 80 mph most of the way. GCVW was 5000 lbs.

nope, haven't driven the 3v truck yet. again, i doubt i'd try to pull anything substantial with it though, like a boat or hosre trailer. it's probably a lot better than the old 2 motors but i understand it's a high winder as well, not really what i want in a truck. trucks are supposed to have lots of low end torque and run out of breath above 4500-5000 rpm. more than likely when i'm in the market for a truck it'll probably be an older one anyway since i can't afford $30K + for a new one, so i'll probably be looking for an older pushrod v8 version, preferably a 351 powered one, though i would take an older Harley F-150 since it has a supercharged 5.4 and plenty of torque, probably won't be pulling much anyway for a while until i can find an affordable old boat but the H-D f150 should pull it if it's smaller than 18'.

 

[D.Hearne]

Yea, I'm in the same boat, I ain't about to pay that kind of money for a truck either. Especially when my old 89 Ranger cost's me everybit of $30 a month for insurance. Only thing is I can't tow anything heavy for more than across town. Radiator isn't big enough to cool the roller 5.0 in it pulling a load. I keep saying I'm gonna put in a bigger radiator though..................

 

[jlangholzj]

one advantage then, cost.

but is it really???? unless you can do ALL of the specialty work yourself, wouldn't it add up?? it would be very interesting to see the total for the cost of the whole thing.

 

[Hack]

I thought the original poster's question was answered a couple pages back. I don't see any advantage in using the LS heads on a Ford. The only possible advantage is if he loves to figure out puzzles and doesn't mind spending a bunch of extra time and $$ working the problems out on the motor and then getting it in the car. It would sure be unusual and a interesting thing to talk to people about at a car show - if that's his thing.

I would recommend to him to sell the LS heads and buy heads that were meant for the Ford with the cash he gets. Assuming the heads are in good condition and valuable, he should be able to get something good from the cash. That's what I would do.

 

[StangDreamin']

Gearing. No IC engine pulls at zero rpm. You just need different gearing for a smaller engine. It's not rocket science.

When I said "at a standstill"; I didn't mean "zero RPM" - I'd hate to think of the humongus battery and starter that would take!
I was talking about off-idle torque.

As to the suggestion that I invest in a diesel rig; you may note in my previous post that, when I was looking at (and eventually bought) my F150, my friend the salesguy was pointing me at an '04 PSD. Even ran a TRW that showed I could afFord it. But then I looked at the monthly payments and decided on the F150.
To quote Dhearne:

I ain't about to pay that kind of money for a truck either.

At least not a used, "first-year" model with its track record!

I didn't mean to construe anything about the "manliness" of pulling snowmobiles - it was just a continuation of the "Apples and oranges" statement. We all have different ideas of what we "need" in a vehicle; based on its use. I still maintain that today's Ford OHC V8 is a mistake in any 1/2-ton or larger Light Truck; unless its a purpose-built "hotrod" like the Lightning. (EDIT: Even with the Superchips "Tow Tune", my F150 "winds out" a bit much before snapping into 2nd and 3rd gears; jerking the horses around quite a bit.) Trucks are by definition "haulers" - they should have the requisite off-idle torque; just as a street car should have reasonable off-idle torque to leave a stoplight without arousing the attention of the "local constabulary".

And Another EDIT: I agree with you about the idea of putting LSx heads on a Ford engine. I can't see where the requisite machine work really offsets the cost of getting heads designed for the particular engine.

 

[Hack]

snip... with the Superchips "Tow Tune", my F150 "winds out" a bit much before snapping into 2nd and 3rd gears; jerking the horses around quite a bit.) Trucks are by definition "haulers" - they should have the requisite off-idle torque; just as a street car should have reasonable off-idle torque to leave a stoplight without arousing the attention of the "local constabulary".

Your points make sense to me. Could be a Superchip problem more than the stock Ford tune, though. I have never driven the newer Ford pickups, so I don't know what they are like. I just remember being happy when I heard my brother in law say his friend's Ford was quite a bit faster than his Chevy. There's a two-lane road going up the north shore in Minnesota where you can get stuck behind long lines of cars - so he was talking 40-70 mph acceleration to be able to pass on a two lane road.

I also agree with not spending a lot of money on a new vehicle. My newest vehicle is a '92 F150 with nearly 210k miles on it. It's ugly, but it works fine. I'd rather spend my money on other things - heck my retirement investments aren't quite where I want them to be.. Diesels last a long time though, so you could get an older diesel pickup. I would never recommend to anyone (especially someone who has the "knack" of repairing their own vehicles) that they should buy any new vehicle.

 

[jlangholzj]

although its german engineering, mercedes deisels usually go for 200-300K w/o a hitch. like you said, they last FOREVER

 

[StangDreamin']

The Superchips "canned tunes" for 97-03 Ford 1/2 tons are pretty generic; as they only have one set of tunes for both 4.6 and 5.4 engines. The "Tow" tune bumps up the ignition advance just a bit and slightly richens the A/F at off-idle; and adjusts the shift points on the tranny (upward). The result is better than stock with a load in the back; but the shifts are a little "harder" than I like with valuable livestock in back.

I often find myself not plugging in the Tow tune; as I FORGET and fill the truck with 87 octane a day or so before hauling somewhere. The Tow tune really likes 91 octane; and I don't like the "empty beer cans in the fan shroud" sound of the Tow tune on 87

 

[PUNISHER RACING]

So how are the LS1 heads coming on the Ford block by the way, just checking back in to see the progress? Oh and by the way a 3v 5.4 will pull a car on a trailer just don't be in a hurry to get anywhere and don't pass a gas station without stopping into the pump to say hi. I have owned and towed with F150's through the years and let me tell you I have been left wanting as a matter of fact this last F150 pulls nice and rides beautifully while having good stopping abilities. My only suggestion to Ford would be put a 400m/351m back in it that was by far the best F150 engine to date it got 10 mpg but got out of its own way with a load!

 

[D.Hearne]

If you think the 351M was something, better not ever get behind the wheel of an older model with a 390. Those old beasts weren't equaled till the V10 was introduced.

 

[StangDreamin']

I was gonna mention the "made" 406/RV cam in my old '72 F100; but you're right, the 390 was a great "factory" hauler.

EDIT: And it undoubtedly spent less time/money at the gas station.

 

[bnickel]

I thought the original poster's question was answered a couple pages back. I don't see any advantage in using the LS heads on a Ford. The only possible advantage is if he loves to figure out puzzles and doesn't mind spending a bunch of extra time and $$ working the problems out on the motor and then getting it in the car. It would sure be unusual and a interesting thing to talk to people about at a car show - if that's his thing.

I would recommend to him to sell the LS heads and buy heads that were meant for the Ford with the cash he gets. Assuming the heads are in good condition and valuable, he should be able to get something good from the cash. That's what I would do.

i'd like to see it done just 'cause. i mean really is there any better reason for doing something? why do men insist on climbing Mt. Everest when it's been done so many times and so many people have died doing it? the most common answer you'd probably get if you were to ask one of them that question is "just because"

 

[StangDreamin']

Well, yeah, sure! That's why I (at age 12) tried to ramp-jump my Huffy Dragster over a friend laying flat on his back in a Radio Flyer wagon! Length-wise!

"Just because"

That's also why some people try to get to "The Hole" and go "WTF?" when they get caught by the double-post trap

 

[bnickel]

Well, yeah, sure! That's why I (at age 12) tried to ramp-jump my Huffy Dragster over a friend laying flat on his back in a Radio Flyer wagon! Length-wise!

"Just because"

That's also why some people try to get to "The Hole" and go "WTF?" when they get caught by the double-post trap

haven't made it to the hole yet, in fact i've only posted a couple times over there, i divide my time between basically 3 forums these days. it used to 5 or 6 but i just can't do it anymore.

 

[ratio411]

Any updates on this, or did the guy just give up?

I admit it is not very practical, but it is a neat discussion just for the brain exercise of it.

A man named "Bill Mitchell" with World Products admitted in an interview that rumors of them adapting LSx heads to an SBF were true. So it is apparently possible, even if it's not practical.

Max Chevy: We’d heard about World adapting LS1 heads on a Ford small-block. Is that true?

BM: Yeah, we did it. That’s our new Man O’ War 10-degree aluminum casting. It’s basically LS7 architecture. If you look real close at the Chevy and the Ford they are mirror images. They share almost the same bolt pattern except that the intakes and exhausts are positioned opposite of one another.

 

[bnickel]

now that i find extremely humurous even the chevy guys now know that there precious LS motor has more in common with a SBF than it does with the old small chevy....too funny and actually it has at least as much in common with an old FE motor as well with that deep skirted block and the cross bolted mains

BTW Dave, this guy did give up on the project as it was going to cost more for a custom cam blank and adapting an intake to the LS heads than it would be worth since he had originally intended this to be a low buck swap.

 

[ratio411]

I wonder if a custom cam was truly needed though...
If you think about it, the LSx and 351w/5.0 HO have the same firing orders.
I know the exhaust lobes will be on the intake valves, and vice versa, but if you use a single pattern cam, it wouldn't matter.
The valve covers for the heads in use are the natural home for the LSx coil packs.
Then to use an LSx ECM will give you distributorless ignition and control the LSx's awesome EFI system.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I wonder if a custom cam was truly needed though...
If you think about it, the LSx and 351w/5.0 HO have the same firing orders.
I know the exhaust lobes will be on the intake valves, and vice versa, but if you use a single pattern cam, it wouldn't matter.

I'm pretty sure it would matter unless the engine was run in reverse rotation. Using a 351W/5.0 cam in standard rottion would cause the LSX head's exhaust valves to open first. It would still take a custom cam to rectify that.

 

[ratio411]

Well yeah, I was figuring the cam would have to be installed at least 180* out of correct position. You might even have to use a degree wheel and set TDC vs cam position directly off the motion of the intake valve itself. Once the cam was setup to run that one lobe, the rest should fall right into place naturally...