Tfs Top End... Evolved???

[jaketuff]

I am pondering the top end kit on my 1991 GT.

Has the kit been re-done since it was brought out? Basically in 2008 and 09 it seemed the kit wasn't living up to expectations. More recent reviews seem to be a lot better and more rewarding. My motor is stock bottom end on the Silver car and I hope to get it low 13's capable of the topend kit.

Silver is 200k mile motor (iirc!)

Has O/R Pipe
Shorties
70MM TB
Stock MAF
Stock 19#ers
SR CAI
SCT Chip
3.73
Car has run best in cool weather of 14.6 at 97MPH... 2.0 60 foot...

Whattya think????

Thx

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I'm pretty sure the intake has changed a little. I remember reading how the Track Heat intakes were cast to accept a 75mm throttle body, yet when I got mine, the opening was only 70mm.

I can't say I've really heard anyone complain about their top end kit either way. Still light years ahead of the stock H/C/I set up. I'm sure you'll be happy with it....low-13's (even high-12's with traction) would be in the bag.

 

[clement]

a couple of years ago I did the kit that came with the stage 1 cam and the track heat intake on a buddies stock 302. it only made 270rwhp. I was less than impressed. ive seen more than that out of gt40y heads with a gt40 intake and an F cam. if it were mine, I would do a holley systemax 2 with a set of High Ports if you can buy some headers. If not I would run the RHS 180s and use an Anderson n41 or n412 depending on your definition of streetable. obviously use the correct valvesprings and a decent set of valves. in a 3000lb car that should run 11s considering the gt40y package we did on the above car was good for 11.80s.

 

[jaketuff]

Want a smooth idle.... no surge down low. 270rwhp... that's right around 315HP. Not bad. How did he run?

F Cam is most aggressive right... definitely lugs and surges street cruising no?

 

[65ShelbyClone]

1.) Want a smooth idle.... no surge down low. 270rwhp... that's right around 315HP. Not bad. How did he run?

2.) F Cam is most aggressive right... definitely lugs and surges street cruising no?

1.) Yes, that is bad.....by about 30rwhp. It's possible to make more than that with a cammed Explorer engine and exhaust. However, the Trick Flow package is capable of 300rwhp, so I would guess the tune was suspect.

2.) No, X303 is the "big" alphabet cam. The F303 is widely regarded as a good turbo/blower grind.

 

[2000xp8]

When installed properly with the correct supporting parts, it makes 290-315rwhp.

 

[Rick 91GT]

The kit has changed slightly as parts have been updated but it really hasnt changed much. Ive made 291rwhp on a Mustang Dyno with the kit on a low mile, great condition stock 5.0. 1.625" shorty headers, 70mm TB, 80mm MAF, 24lb injectors I do like upgrading to the Track Heat intake over the street...otherwise Im with Clement, the Holley with a RHS or AFR head will yeild excellent results but the cost will be more.

 

[mikestang63]

The kit has changed slightly as parts have been updated but it really hasnt changed much. Ive made 291rwhp on a Mustang Dyno with the kit on a low mile, great condition stock 5.0. 1.625" shorty headers, 70mm TB, 80mm MAF, 24lb injectors I do like upgrading to the Track Heat intake over the street...otherwise Im with Clement, the Holley with a RHS or AFR head will yeild excellent results but the cost will be more.

Seems like a lot more money for around 30hp hp more than a JY Explorer top end and an off the shelf cam from either TFS, comp cam, etc..

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-k514-350370b/overview/

I'll stir the pot a little.....

$2700 bucks for the TFS kit vs. you could buy JY explorer heads, intake for around $200-$300. New TFS valve springs for $150. Have the heads cleaned up and the intake hot tanked for $200 or less. Then the gaskets, bolts. timing chain, rockers, etc. for another $200. Let's say $1000. You still have $1700 for a custom TFI cam, injectors, MAF, tune, or whatever you want. Hell send the intake to Tom Moss for porting and you will def be over 300 rwhp with that setup and the right cam. IMO he can get to 300 rwhp for a lot less money than $2700. That is a very nice kit but not the best bang for the buck.

just my .02

 

[Grabbin' Asphalt]

Seems like a lot more money for around 30hp hp more than a JY Explorer top end and an off the shelf cam from either TFS, comp cam, etc..

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-k514-350370b/overview/

I'll stir the pot a little.....

$2700 bucks for the TFS kit vs. you could buy JY explorer heads, intake for around $200-$300. New TFS valve springs for $150. Have the heads cleaned up and the intake hot tanked for $200 or less. Then the gaskets, bolts. timing chain, rockers, etc. for another $200. Let's say $1000. You still have $1700 for a custom TFI cam, injectors, MAF, tune, or whatever you want. Hell send the intake to Tom Moss for porting and you will def be over 300 rwhp with that setup and the right cam. IMO he can get to 300 rwhp for a lot less money than $2700. That is a very nice kit but not the best bang for the buck.

just my .02

Yep I'm at 280rwhp_319rwtq with gt40p/cobra intake/Ecam with chip tune and i have A/C climate control. That's a lot of $$$ saved for me, redid the interior and got a paint job too

 

[2000xp8]

Seems like a lot more money for around 30hp hp more than a JY Explorer top end and an off the shelf cam from either TFS, comp cam, etc..

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-k514-350370b/overview/

I'll stir the pot a little.....

$2700 bucks for the TFS kit vs. you could buy JY explorer heads, intake for around $200-$300. New TFS valve springs for $150. Have the heads cleaned up and the intake hot tanked for $200 or less. Then the gaskets, bolts. timing chain, rockers, etc. for another $200. Let's say $1000. You still have $1700 for a custom TFI cam, injectors, MAF, tune, or whatever you want. Hell send the intake to Tom Moss for porting and you will def be over 300 rwhp with that setup and the right cam. IMO he can get to 300 rwhp for a lot less money than $2700. That is a very nice kit but not the best bang for the buck.

just my .02

People talk about the elusive 300rwhp mark with gt40 iron heads all the time.
Too bad it is rarely seen to happen.
They also talk about 12's, which is possible, again doesn't happen all that much.
With the TW's, it's more of certainty.

The average guy is going to get like 265rwhp with p heads. Good numbers, but it's way short of 300rwhp+.

Let's not forget that TW's have future potential, better cam, better intake and you can be talking 325rwhp. There are also cnc programs if you goto a stroker.

IMO, use the wedges, but use your own intake and cam.

In a world where stock mustangs and camaro's run 12's out the box, you need more insurance than gt40 iron heads.

 

[Bryan83taco]

I'm very happy with my TFS top end kit. I went with the Stage 2 cam because I plan on throwing on a Vortech in the not so distant future. I have not had mine tune'd and dyno'd yet but it's on the to do list. Great kit with quality parts.

 

[Grabbin' Asphalt]

If I delete my a/c and change the 3 chamber flows I'd be darn close but if I would just change the cam it would do wonders, ...264 extreme would put me over for sure.

Those new cars are way heavy, they need more power just to take off.

 

[clement]

im not a fan of the track heat intake, and I really don't like the street intake. both seem to lack what a port matched gt40/cobra will do, and neither of those are great intakes either. honestly, the heads wont matter with any of the above intakes OOTB. another problem with that kit is the valvejob and valvesprings. they are garbage. which I suspect is why so many cant get these cars in the 12s, when in the 90s even out of the box gt40 irons with a cobra intake and a cam were going mid 12s in a set up car on the motor. and back then we hardly ever dyno'd them and did pcm tunes even less. if I had a set of TFS/AFR ect heads on a 302/306 in a good car and it didn't run 11s at over 112, id be looking for the problem.

ive said it before and ill say it again, when building a 302/306 street motor to race with a given amount of $ id rather run a set of used iron gt40 or Ps (instead of a summit TFS top end kit with no other work) with a used systemax 2 or TFS R (non box) intake, take the savings and put it into quality valves, valvesprings, lifters, pushrods, retainers and locks, and have a machinist who builds race engines do the valve job and machine work. run the appropriate cam and a decent set of headers in a good car and go 11s on motor on pump gas. yes the TW heads have room to grow, but if they run like a turd now because you don't have the $ to do it right in the first place, what are the odds you are going to spend $1200 in port work later?

if you can swing the TW heads with a good valvejob from TEA (or a good set of AFR/RHS/ a TEA 192 High Port, ect with good valvetrain) that would be the way to go. because then you get decent valves and the correct angles on the valve job and it will RUN. but out of the box the summit TFS kit will have lack luster results without some extra $ spent. I just think there are better ways to spent $ than the summit kit. but im more worried about what they run at the track rather than what they dyno. we've got an all motor combo we built over the winter that weve only put half a dozen runs on and its already done 6.30s at over 107 in the 1/8th and it doesn't probably doesnt make but 450rwhp. and thats with ported stock 1971 Cleveland heads.

 

[Grabbin' Asphalt]

im not a fan of the track heat intake, and I really don't like the street intake. both seem to lack what a port matched gt40/cobra will do, and neither of those are great intakes either. honestly, the heads wont matter with any of the above intakes OOTB. another problem with that kit is the valvejob and valvesprings. they are garbage. which I suspect is why so many cant get these cars in the 12s, when in the 90s even out of the box gt40 irons with a cobra intake and a cam were going mid 12s in a set up car on the motor. and back then we hardly ever dyno'd them and did pcm tunes even less. if I had a set of TFS/AFR ect heads on a 302/306 in a good car and it didn't run 11s at over 112, id be looking for the problem.

ive said it before and ill say it again, id rather run a set of used iron gt40 or Ps with a used systemax 2 or TFS R (non box) intake, take the savings and put it into quality valves, valvesprings, lifters, pushrods, retainers and locks, and have a machinist who builds race engines do the valve job and machine work. run the appropriate cam and a decent set of headers in a good car and go 11s on motor on pump gas.

^^^^^Well said ....extremely durable as well.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Let's also keep in mind here fellas....you're not only getting a set of qulity heads a cam and an intake with the Trick Flow top end kit. You're also getting a quality set of roller rockers and locks, pushrods, a beautifully finished set of valve covers and billet oil filler neck, timing chain and gears, top grade head bolts, and a full set of top end gaskets.....all BRAND NEW.....it adds up.

Try picking up a set of used GT40's, then spending the money on the machine work, valve spring upgrade and rebuild, then get your Explorer intake have it drilled to accept the ACT sensor....then start tacking on the cost of port matching, gaskets, bolts, a new timing chain and gear set, a good set of billet roller rockers, head gaskets, waterpump gaskets, etc. You'll tack several hundred dollars onto that "junk yard" combo, still come in way short of the Trick Flow power numbers and your engines still wearing the cruddy stock valve covers and hardware that's nearly 15-20-years-old.

Basically....you're getting top notch performance, pizazz and the piece of mind that comes with knowing your entire top end is tried and tested, full of new parts from the block up....not to mention a 50lb weight savings.

With GT40 stuff, you get sub-par performance, none of the pizazz and the uncertainty that comes with running 15-20-year old used parts.

So yeah....you get what you pay for.

 

[clement]

I forgot about the "billet" rockers and the badass valve covers that are needed. as always, if its a dog buy more parts rather than actually figure out what the problem is.

funny thing is ive run the kit on a car bolted on out of the box as per the owners request. 270rwhp and 8.20s @ 85 mph in the 1/8 mile in a 3100 lb 50k mile coupe on motor. but a gt40 upper with a port matched lower, a set of used gt40 heads with an f cam on a 250k mile shortblock with good parts and machine work running 7.60s @ 90 mph in another 3100lb coupe. do the TFS heads have more potential? sure. but if you cant even ring out a JY combo what makes you think you can make a TFS headed combo run?

 

[mikestang63]

Let's also keep in mind here fellas....you're not only getting a set of qulity heads a cam and an intake with the Trick Flow top end kit. You're also getting a quality set of roller rockers and locks, pushrods, a beautifully finished set of valve covers and billet oil filler neck, timing chain and gears, top grade head bolts, and a full set of top end gaskets.....all BRAND NEW.....it adds up.

Try picking up a set of used GT40's, then spending the money on the machine work, valve spring upgrade and rebuild, then get your Explorer intake have it drilled to accept the ACT sensor....then start tacking on the cost of port matching, gaskets, bolts, a new timing chain and gear set, a good set of billet roller rockers, head gaskets, waterpump gaskets, etc. You'll tack several hundred dollars onto that "junk yard" combo, still come in way short of the Trick Flow power numbers and your engines still wearing the cruddy stock valve covers and hardware that's nearly 15-20-years-old.

Basically....you're getting top notch performance, pizazz and the piece of mind that comes with knowing your entire top end is tried and tested, full of new parts from the block up....not to mention a 50lb weight savings.

With GT40 stuff, you get sub-par performance, none of the pizazz and the uncertainty that comes with running 15-20-year old used parts.

So yeah....you get what you pay for.

That's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors.

I guess I will stick with my cruddy looking stock valve covers, Explorer top end swap and critical new parts, but mostly used parts I bought on CL or Mustang boards- TB, CAI, MAF, rockers, heads, intake. Total cost was about half the TFS kit including gaskets, bolts, machine shop and parts. I can live with the 30 less rwhp until I want more power and then slap on an S trim with larger injectors and a tune.

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[Gearbanger 101]

I forgot about the "billet" rockers and the badass valve covers that are needed. as always, if its a dog buy more parts rather than actually figure out what the problem is.

Not saying they're needed, just that having them as part of the kit is part of why people are seeing the asking price for them. A person could easily pick the kit up for under 2-grand without springing for the "bling" and putting on a set of less expensive rocker arms.

IMO, your buddies car that only made 270rwhp had other problems unrelated to the Trick Flow top end kit. Just think how low his number could have been with a GT40 top end?

BTW, what is it you don't like about the Track Heat intake? The lower is light years better than anything Ford ever put out....with an attractive looking, large volume upper and they seem to trade wins with the Systemax II in most of the dyno comparisons I've seen? The only thing that kinda miffed me about the Track Heat was the inability to run an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. You've either got to run the stocker, or bash the crap out of the EGR valve in order to squeeze in a low profile adjustable unit. The intake nuts can be a bit of a pain to get onto with a socket as well.....try finding a 12-point, 10-mm, 1/4" shallow drive socket on a Sunday when you're trying to get the intake off.

 

[clement]

the problem the car had was the 'summit' valvejob and everything was setup 'out of the box' because its 'a proven combo'. mostly because he didn't want to pay the extra labor to actually change things like how the springs were .220 off of coil bind when they should have been at .060-.080 off of coil bind. but what do I know.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

That's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors.

I guess I will stick with my cruddy looking stock valve covers, Explorer top end swap and critical new parts, but mostly used parts I bought on CL or Mustang boards- TB, CAI, MAF, rockers, heads, intake. Total cost was about half the TFS kit including gaskets, bolts, machine shop and parts. I can live with the 30 less rwhp until I want more power and then slap on an S trim with larger injectors and a tune.

Nothing wrong with 31-flavours...but it's kinda hard to compare performance vs. cost when you compare new and used parts. Price out the cost of all of your parts when they were new and get back to me. In any case, TFS stuff can be had a pretty reasonable price at a local swap meet, or through CL used market too ya know. So much so, that you'd be hard pressed to convince most people that buying a set of used GT40 irons at this point, having them rebuilt, upgraded and any machine work done would be worth the money spent when you consider how inexpensive a good used set of aluminum heads can be had for now a days. The best performing, most heavily worked set of GT40/GT40P iron heads still don't outperform even an off the shelf set of GT40X heads....never mind a set of Trick Flows. Same goes for any of the Ford intakes.

Not trying to take anything away from your car. It looks great and sounds like it hauls the mail pretty well for the money spent. To say your horsepower figures for the parts used are common place would certainly be an exaggeration though. Realistically, most GT40 top end owners are coming in closer to 50-70hp shy of the Trick Flow top end power figures.....not 30hp.

the problem the car had was the 'summit' valvejob and everything was setup 'out of the box' because its 'a proven combo'. mostly because he didn't want to pay the extra labor to actually change things like how the springs were .220 off of coil bind when they should have been at .060-.080 off of coil bind. but what do I know.

Sounds like he should have listened to his buddy. He might have ended up with a faster car.