Speed Density Or Mas Air What's The Benifits?

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Don't forget the AFR meter if you don't have one.
Yeah, gotta grab one of those too. Had an Innovate LC-1 on my last car. Worked really well to dial my A/F ratio in, but I burned out the sensor in less than a year.
I'll probably pick up another on unless someone can recommend something cheaper?

Damn.... $900 for a tune? Like you said, for less than that you can get a MegaSquirt, an A/F bung for the exhaust and A/F gauge and have at it. The PMS is more expensive but more user friendly. I'd look for a used PMS ... Wish you were local. I could recommend a few places to bring the car for a tune.

Have you considered a *gasp* mail order tune from Dirty Dog or JMS/SCT?

A used PMS might be the ticket. I seem them going for around $600 in most classifieds ads. The mail order tune idea doesn't intrigue me a whole lot. That's how I initially tuned my last car and it was a royal PITA. I finally ended up driving it 4hrs to the dyno (Steeda.ca....the place I mentioned prior) and had it done there. They did a great job in the end, but it was a major hassle. Had to go back 3-times to finally have it perfected. I was over $1,200 deep by then. Not something I want to repeat.

Noobz, the only guy I know of by you is http://www.dasilvaracing.com/
Dasilva Racing...yeah, they do good work. That's Joe Dasilva's shop. He was pretty big back in the days of the Fox body and SN95 Mustangs. They're about a 4hr drive from here, so I wouldn't exactly call them local. I can't imagine their rates being much different than Steeda's?

On an even more awesome note. I had the rail undone to change my fuel pressure regulator this evening. Had to pry it up off of the injectors in order to get to the allen head screw on the inside of the rail. Wouldn't you know it, I pulled the O-ring off of two of the injectors and had them stuck up in the fuel rail. I'm 99% certain I've ruined one of them trying to get it out...and it looks like I'm going to have to take off the upper manifold to get the other one. So I guess I'm not driving the car again this weekend. FML :bang:
 
Yeah, gotta grab one of those too. Had an Innovate LC-1 on my last car. Worked really well to dial my A/F ratio in, but I burned out the sensor in less than a year.
I'll probably pick up another on unless someone can recommend something cheaper?



A used PMS might be the ticket. I seem them going for around $600 in most classifieds ads. The mail order tune idea doesn't intrigue me a whole lot. That's how I initially tuned my last car and it was a royal PITA. I finally ended up driving it 4hrs to the dyno (Steeda.ca....the place I mentioned prior) and had it done there. They did a great job in the end, but it was a major hassle. Had to go back 3-times to finally have it perfected. I was over $1,200 deep by then. Not something I want to repeat.


Dasilva Racing...yeah, they do good work. That's Joe Dasilva's shop. He was pretty big back in the days of the Fox body and SN95 Mustangs. They're about a 4hr drive from here, so I wouldn't exactly call them local. I can't imagine their rates being much different than Steeda's?

On an even more awesome note. I had the rail undone to change my fuel pressure regulator this evening. Had to pry it up off of the injectors in order to get to the allen head screw on the inside of the rail. Wouldn't you know it, I pulled the O-ring off of two of the injectors and had them stuck up in the fuel rail. I'm 99% certain I've ruined one of them trying to get it out...and it looks like I'm going to have to take off the upper manifold to get the other one. So I guess I'm not driving the car again this weekend. FML :bang:

Yep. Joey DaSilva.. I remember him back from the old 5.0 days. I think they went by JP Performance? Him, Nitrous Pete, Gene Deputy, and Big Daddy were the big dogs back then. I think I met them at WF Challenge I or II. They seemed like nice guys. If I remember correctly, they built many engines for a lot of top racers.


Regarding the O ring, can you get at it with a little pick or hooked seal remover? Your gonna replace them anyway and they are cheap so who care if you rip them on the way out. Easier than removing the upper.
 
Brian, tuning yourself takes a significant investment in time to learn. It's pretty confusing but there are sites with people that will help. Your call. I just cant believe what a rip-off they're trying to pull on you.
 
That's pretty much par for the course here it seems as far as rates go. That they're asking for the chip is ludicrous though....especially considering I'm already paying for their inflated shop rates.
Is that a lifetime tune? or one time? If they will retune the car as your combo changes then that's not that bad., If it's for one time, then yes, that is crackhead prices.
 
Dwayne,
If you get the SD tuned, then you'll be fine with your setup. The SD has limitations as everything is preprogrammed in the ECU and with no MAF, no availability to adjust itself if the variances get too much out of bounds. Hence, if you get a chip or a tune, your ECU will now know what parameters to expect for your setup. Many aftermarket stand alone setups are actually SD as believe it or not causes less problems once you have it dialed in. I had Chris Johnson burn me a "switch chip" back in the day that had two different programs- a street and a race setting- all I had to do was flip a switch on a circuit board in my glove box. I'm sure the new ones are far more advanced now. Hell I ran a HCI and a Vortech on SD and the car idled and ran without a hiccup. The only thing I would say is don't get too aggressive on the cam or you will run into problems. Crane used to make a SD specific cam that I ran, which if I remember was similar to the B or E cam in specs?

If you want the flexibility and ability to grow , then it won't hurt to swap to mass air, but then you'll probably want tune anyway?


This is all interesting to hear, Mike thanks for this info. I had never heard anyone working thru speed density. Everyone that I knew went Mass Air. I am going to give crane a call to see what my option are. Mike you sound as if you are opposed to Mass Air conversions.... you've for sure given me more to consider. I was aware of the loss of vacuum being an issue with any setup if pulled too low. Power brakes being one item that suffers....
 
This is all interesting to hear, Mike thanks for this info. I had never heard anyone working thru speed density. Everyone that I knew went Mass Air. I am going to give crane a call to see what my option are. Mike you sound as if you are opposed to Mass Air conversions.... you've for sure given me more to consider. I was aware of the loss of vacuum being an issue with any setup if pulled too low. Power brakes being one item that suffers....

Not opposed to MAF at all. Just saying you don't need to run and install it for throwing on some bolt ons. If you plan on a blower, radical cam, then yes do it. If not, get a tune and a SD cam.
 
It should also be noted that the MAF conversion was all the rage back in the day, because there weren't really any DIY options regarding ECU tuning for the EFI crowd. Self tuning systems like the Anderson PMS, Megasquirt, FAST and Moats set ups weren't around in the mid/late-90's and the options that were, were reaalllly expensive for your average tuner. So of course, the natural progression was converting to Mass Air.

That's no longer the case. You can just about tune your car with one of the above systems for the same cost as converting your current Speed Density set up over to Mass Air.....and you'll have tuning capability across the board, for as long as you own your car to boot.
 
Spot on, Brian. Honestly, I'd venture to guess that tuning a speed density factory EEC is probably simpler than tuning an MAF car. I'd say go MAF only if you plan to tinker with significant things like the heads, cam, or intake and don't want the hassle of retuning the car. However, if you're going to buy a self-tuner, then you're no worse off than with an MAF. In fact, with added simplicity and one less part to worry about, I'd say you're better off.

I have experience with the standalone SD setup on my car, and an MAF EEC4. I know it's not apples to apples, but I definitely prefer tuning the SD.
 
I was throwing around the idea of knocking a couple of PSI out of the fuel pressure. Hopefully that'll work. Otherwise, it's tune time. Called the shop I had my last car done at and it's got me wondering if I should forgo the dyno and try tuning it myself with one of the methods out there (Anderson PMS, Megasquirt, Moats, etc)

They want $500 for the dyno time and $400 for the chip. :eek:

That's a heck of lot for a one time tune. Had me looking into one of the others described above...but that's whole other ball of wax.

Anderson PMS....easiest to use, but most expensive
Megasquirt....more features than the PMS and cheaper....but tougher to use and you have to build it yourself.
Moats Quarterhorse.....cheapest out of the three, but I'm told you have to be an IT Tech to work the damn thing. :(




I'll chime in regarding the Quarterhorse.... I have one. I bought it through Wllie Lynch at Dirty Dirty Racing after I installed my turbo and a bunch of other stuff. He is very highly recomended in case you haven't heard of him. Anyow, the quarterhorse came with a base tune loaded which as pretty good. After installing the Binary Editor program and recording some datalogs and emailing them back to Willie, my tune is pretty much spot on. Not bad for a whopping $349 including email tune updates! I can plug my laptop in, hit datalog, go drive, email hime the file, he will analyze it and make any updates. Emails the tune back, load it to the QH, and go driving! I know Chris at PAS does tis, maybe even Kurgan, but I will speak highly of Willie, and I've never even met the guy
 
Hey mad, I'm an aspiring tuning guru. I'm curious as to what feedback is in the datalogs that clues Willie in on what to change. I assume he's using Wideband information together with load and RPM to reach the AFR he wants to see. Aside from the AFR, does he ever modify the spark tables? If so, do you have any idea how he identifies necessary changes?
 
Not exactly sure of it all yet myself, but with my tunes he's pretty much only had to play with the Maf curve. He nailed everything else when he setup the base tune. I was rich at first with the old pro m pro tube, but swapped in a new hpx slot meter so it needed a little tweaking. As far as the datalogging, the important things were AFR and the load values. Doesnt appear that spark tables have been adjusted at all, i dont see any differences when comparing different tunes in BE.
 
Hey mad, I'm an aspiring tuning guru. I'm curious as to what feedback is in the datalogs that clues Willie in on what to change. I assume he's using Wideband information together with load and RPM to reach the AFR he wants to see. Aside from the AFR, does he ever modify the spark tables? If so, do you have any idea how he identifies necessary changes?
Prob not touching the spark tables. My old car was tuned the same way but not through dirty dirty. I also have had good experiences with this method. Go to eectuning.org for tuning questions. It's mostly moates and tweecer but prob relevant to any tuning device.


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