The LS engine is a generation newer than the old pushrod Ford. The Coyote is a generation newer than that.
Kurt
Kurt
Chevy Engine In A Foxbody
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I don't care how much power they can handle, or how cheaply they can be built up....my cars will never house Chevy junk and will always bleed Ford blue. Some of you guys act as though a person should be ashamed for staying true to the breed? I'm proud to say I'm a brand loyalist.
I hear "I just swapped an LSX into my Fox body" and I thing....damn, another one bites the dust. Might has well have put euro tail light and a body kit on it. Because I'll never look at it the same way again.
I hear "I just swapped an LSX into my Fox body" and I thing....damn, another one bites the dust. Might has well have put euro tail light and a body kit on it. Because I'll never look at it the same way again.
Yess!!! Yess! Bottom line is this. Yes, there's variables but this is the idea.
jozsefsz
15 Year Member
When you're pricing a junkyard LS long-block against a brand spanking new Dart-based motor that's probably not a very accurate comparison. I'm one cheap dude (and proud of it) and don't see anything wrong with mixing it up a bit. Dollar for dollar though I don't see how you'd come out ahead.
What does an LS swap take all-in? Just looking at swap headers you're talking about $1000+, then you'll need to do something about the rest of the drivetrain (doubt it'll bolt up to your T5
), probably the K-member, all the accessories, the computer, etc., etc., and a lifetime of figuring out how to replace those parts when they wear out and doing LS swaps into Fox bodies is a long-forgotten fad.
So forget about the chest-thumping love for Ford or Chevy, show us the money if you think there's a beneficial $/hp ratio that makes it an idea worth considering. Otherwise it'll make an interesting conversation piece, probably make a few 'purists' mad, and dig you a pretty deep money-pit for something that could have been done easier through more conventional means (things are usually conventional because they're quick / easy / cheap or some combination of those).
And "lots of guys are doing it" doesn't impress me much. There's lots of guys out there with more money than sense. I'd say most of them don't seem to have mastered the art of adding and subtracting quite yet... you know, comparing apples-to-apples and looking at what the price-tag is all-in.
What does an LS swap take all-in? Just looking at swap headers you're talking about $1000+, then you'll need to do something about the rest of the drivetrain (doubt it'll bolt up to your T5
), probably the K-member, all the accessories, the computer, etc., etc., and a lifetime of figuring out how to replace those parts when they wear out and doing LS swaps into Fox bodies is a long-forgotten fad.So forget about the chest-thumping love for Ford or Chevy, show us the money if you think there's a beneficial $/hp ratio that makes it an idea worth considering. Otherwise it'll make an interesting conversation piece, probably make a few 'purists' mad, and dig you a pretty deep money-pit for something that could have been done easier through more conventional means (things are usually conventional because they're quick / easy / cheap or some combination of those).
And "lots of guys are doing it" doesn't impress me much. There's lots of guys out there with more money than sense. I'd say most of them don't seem to have mastered the art of adding and subtracting quite yet... you know, comparing apples-to-apples and looking at what the price-tag is all-in.
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f8tlfiveo
My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.
I don't have a problem with Chevys... Just don't want one in my ford. I'm sure they are stronger that's why people do it.. But I'm not breaking 500 hp anyway
I wrestled w the very dilemma discussed on this thread. It's obvious where my "brand loyalty" allegiance is based on my decision to stay with a ford engine in my ford car. I did spend alot of time researching the costs involved with the swap, and purely for the sake of "doing it", I'll still maintain that it could've been done using a stock long block, 4l60e trans and converter, ECU, exhaust manifolds, passenger car intake, and engine harness for around 2500.00.
Based on advertised Bowtie hp/tq figures, that would've netted me something around 300/385 in stock trim with the potential to add another 100hp on top of that with just a better cam and a set of mikematko fabricated headers.
Instead, (because I'm a Blue bleeding ford goob) I'll now have a 450/500rwhp/rwtq Ford engine that'll end up costing me 3 times that.
Had I put the same "turbo money" into the LS combo, I'd be looking at a combo capable of standing up to twice its factory rated power for as long as I wanted it to.
So then'.....lets do the math.
400 horsepower, and 400ft lbs of torque for 3000.00 (cause I added a cam and exhaust to my JY engine) Add to that that I'll be able to further modify the base engine to twice that w/a power adder w/o ever taking off the oil pan, and that adds up to 1 smart choice.
Now conversely, you can take your existing 5.0, and spend the same 3000 on a H/C/I, and 347 rotating assembly and easily make the same 400/400 the JY engine will make. The difference in the two choices becomes more apparent after you add the 76mm turbo that sits on the above outlined LS, and attempt to make the same power (lets go real conservative, and say 650/650).
It wont be too long before that addition will result in the subtraction of 7qts of oil after the rod puts a hole in the pan because a chunk of the broken cam got jammed between the block, when the cam seized because of the cracks that radiated from the main saddles up into the cam journals, and caused it to break.
That will equal one sad Ford enthusiast.
Based on advertised Bowtie hp/tq figures, that would've netted me something around 300/385 in stock trim with the potential to add another 100hp on top of that with just a better cam and a set of mikematko fabricated headers.
Instead, (because I'm a Blue bleeding ford goob) I'll now have a 450/500rwhp/rwtq Ford engine that'll end up costing me 3 times that.
Had I put the same "turbo money" into the LS combo, I'd be looking at a combo capable of standing up to twice its factory rated power for as long as I wanted it to.
So then'.....lets do the math.
400 horsepower, and 400ft lbs of torque for 3000.00 (cause I added a cam and exhaust to my JY engine) Add to that that I'll be able to further modify the base engine to twice that w/a power adder w/o ever taking off the oil pan, and that adds up to 1 smart choice.
Now conversely, you can take your existing 5.0, and spend the same 3000 on a H/C/I, and 347 rotating assembly and easily make the same 400/400 the JY engine will make. The difference in the two choices becomes more apparent after you add the 76mm turbo that sits on the above outlined LS, and attempt to make the same power (lets go real conservative, and say 650/650).
It wont be too long before that addition will result in the subtraction of 7qts of oil after the rod puts a hole in the pan because a chunk of the broken cam got jammed between the block, when the cam seized because of the cracks that radiated from the main saddles up into the cam journals, and caused it to break.
That will equal one sad Ford enthusiast.
jozsefsz
15 Year Member
Assuming you can find the deal you describe (not around here unless you want 100k+ mile leftovers), you left out about $2500+ in additional parts and / or a few hundred hours of fabrication labor (purely related to the fact you've gone to Chevy -- not at all including the supporting mods required) which was my point (thing like mounts, k-member, radiator, brake booster for clearance, whatever you intend to do about power-steering / alternator / air conditioning / gauges). And now you've got a nice well-worn junkyard engine that may just as well send some bottom-end parts through the pan and a transmission of unknown longevity when you try to slap a turbo on it.
We can skew the math whichever direction we'd like based on however much we choose to leave out. In your example you're spending your $3k on NA power on the Ford and in the LS example you're bolting on mythical turbos. Have you ever tried locating an aftermarket turbo kit for an LS in a Fox? Do you have a guess as to how much that fabrication is gonna cost you? I'll give you the 650/650 but it's going to take you 200 hours of labor or about $5k to have someone put that together for you.
My math is 450hp / 590tq out of a stock 5.0 using an available aftermarket bolt-on turbo kit (<$2k with supporting mods like fueling left out as you did). Much above that and you're in Dart block territory so add another $2k for the SHP + more for all the internals / machining / etc. Now add your off-the-shelf turbo kit and find your 1000hp for a few thousand more.
So from my viewpoint if your hp goals are anything under block-splitting territory, stay with the stock block. Above that going with Dart is still going to make much more financial sense than the Chebby. In all cases Forced Induction is your most bang for your buck. When ALL things are considered.
You should visit the turbo forums to see what and how people are doings things. You'd be amazed.
jozsefsz
15 Year Member
Anything like this?
http://ls1tech.com/forums/racers-lounge/1426217-there-no-words-describe.html
In all seriousness, I've got some turbo experience with my car (BoostBrothers kit) since 2009, and I'm currently fabricating a turbo setup for my '78 Mustang II v6 -- very time and labor-intensive. I can only wish there were an aftermarket kit. Anything in specific over there that caught your eye?
No, just a lot of budget builds.
A guy local to me used a 5.0 on3 kit on his 6.0 swap, he just cut off the sbf header flanges and welded up some LS flanges. Voila, LS swap kit.
A guy local to me used a 5.0 on3 kit on his 6.0 swap, he just cut off the sbf header flanges and welded up some LS flanges. Voila, LS swap kit.
We race against a 434 cid SBC (not LS) in a Fox Mustang. 14.25:1 compression with a fogger nitrous system, PG trans and 9" rear. That car runs HARD! In fact he usually has .1-.15 on us in a race. Whereas, we have stuck with Ford power, using a unique KenneBell air/water intercooler set up. We obviously have more $ tied up in our combination. We want to stay with Ford power. We want to stay supercharged. Those two things right there handicap us badly. The guys running the nitrous SBC have a 2950 lb minimum weight they must make. We have to run at 3150 lbs. Not because it is a Ford, but because it is supercharged instead of using Nitrous. The Ford option also costs more to do........especially since we wanted to stay fuel injected. A carburetor Nitrous engine would cost a whole lot less, and take weight off of the nose of the car. That KenneBell supercharger with air/water intercooler easily adds 100 lbs or more to the nose of the car compared to a carb/nitrous combo. But that is the path we chose, mostly because we were told we could not make the car competitive with that combo and it is worth the extra $ and time to prove them wrong. It is worth every drop of sweat and $ spent to see people scratch their head and walk away mumbling to themselves wondering what the hell we have and how did we make it work so well. NOBODY.......and I mean NOBODY, looks at that SBC powered Fox and walks away wondering what it took to make it work. It is a bellybutton, copycat of a copycat that has been done tens of thousands of times. It is not unique, it did not take any special thought. It is the cheap and easy way to go fast.........and for some, that overrides any other consideration, brand loyalty be damned.
great point thank you..................I don't care how much power they can handle, or how cheaply they can be built up....my cars will never house Chevy junk and will always bleed Ford blue. Some of you guys act as though a person should be ashamed for staying true to the breed? I'm proud to say I'm a brand loyalist.
I hear "I just swapped an LSX into my Fox body" and I thing....damn, another one bites the dust. Might has well have put euro tail light and a body kit on it. Because I'll never look at it the same way again.
