Heads Are Off.........images And Thoughts On Piston
- Thread starter from6to8
- Start date
-
Sponsors (?)
When I pulled GT40 heads from an Explorer in the junkyard, 3 bolts into the front of the head was the only thing holding the entire PS and AC accessories onto the engine. (Other than hoses and wires).
Again, nothing on the head gaskets. The metal exhaust gaskets are reusable. Do not use the Loctite 571 for head bolt thread sealant. It has a lot of friction and can lead to inaccurate torque readings. Use the PTFE stuff. That is actually the best part about using head studs. Since there are two ends, you can put the ptfe on one end, and lubricant on the other. It gives you dead on torque readings.
Kurt
Kurt
yeah the one i got i think is loctite 569 industrial high strenght hydraulic sealant.
and since i have bolts, I would only need to put sealant on the threads, not at the bolt head?
Easiest way to get water out of the thread holes?
You can use a bottle brush or compressed air to get water out of the holes. The sealant only goes on the threads, not the head of the bolt.
Kurt
Kurt
Here are the instructions from ARP.
http://arp-bolts.com/kits/instructions.php?RecordID=541
ARP thread sealant is the same as the PTFE you get in the store. You can put a little bit of oil under the head of the bolt. The ARP Moly Lube would be better, but I don't think it's worth paying shipping on it from Summit. I don't think it makes enough difference.
Kurt
http://arp-bolts.com/kits/instructions.php?RecordID=541
ARP thread sealant is the same as the PTFE you get in the store. You can put a little bit of oil under the head of the bolt. The ARP Moly Lube would be better, but I don't think it's worth paying shipping on it from Summit. I don't think it makes enough difference.
Kurt
in one of my images of the heads i think i posted a pic of, do you see that coolant it looks like in on top of a few of the pistons? That needs to be cleaned up out of there right and would any of that have leaked down past the piston and if so does it need to come out and how?
Ok guys I just sent some pics to this guy I have been talking to from Texas. He seems to be real knowledgeable and I can tell from talking to him on the phone several times and for an extended time, he seems to be the type that's pretty much a stickler if that's the correct word, he seems to know what he's talking about. So here are his thoughts on getting the heads fixed. I will copy and paste them thru my fone cause it will be easier so i just want to see what you guys will think, and opinions further:
cleaning the heads up and bolting on that oil coked short block is Not gonna happen, man. That short block has to come out. The hone is coked with microscopic oil, so ring seal AND oil control is done bc once a hone is coked, it's pores are seal shut with burned oil. The only way that cleans up is with a fresh hone and rings. Besides that, it's not gonna make any power until you solve the coked hone. ;-)
Bc ring seal is done, as a result.
To anyone who will say to you that what I said is not the case, all I can say is this: After you put the heads back on, take a look at a leak down gauge and after having done so, tell me it isn't the case. LOL.
cleaning the heads up and bolting on that oil coked short block is Not gonna happen, man. That short block has to come out. The hone is coked with microscopic oil, so ring seal AND oil control is done bc once a hone is coked, it's pores are seal shut with burned oil. The only way that cleans up is with a fresh hone and rings. Besides that, it's not gonna make any power until you solve the coked hone. ;-)
Bc ring seal is done, as a result.
To anyone who will say to you that what I said is not the case, all I can say is this: After you put the heads back on, take a look at a leak down gauge and after having done so, tell me it isn't the case. LOL.
I'll respond. I think he needs to work on basic sentence structure and grammar. After he has mastered that he can move on to learning a few things about mechanics, and then possibly give advice on engine repair. What he wrote is ridiculous. The hone is good enough on that short block that it's visible in a low resolution internet picture. Oil burns on to a cylinder when a ring fails, or the engine is run with very little oil in it. This engine has no signs of that at all. The bores are clean with a good hone pattern. You took the head off because of a dropped valve right? Am I missing something here?
The water has to come out of the cylinders. Suck up the majority of it with a shop vacuum, then wipe the rest out with a rag. Re apply some motor oil to the cylinder walls to keep them from rusting.
Kurt
The water has to come out of the cylinders. Suck up the majority of it with a shop vacuum, then wipe the rest out with a rag. Re apply some motor oil to the cylinder walls to keep them from rusting.
Kurt
I think what Kurt said is right on. Although for a second, I thought Kurt was referring to my post before I read what you posted haha.
You pulled the engine for a broken spring, not a broken ring. If you had enough blow by to cause an issue, you'd have known long ago. The hone looks fine and yes, the cyl walls will be oil soaked. People have run motors with BROKEN pistons and not known anything was wrong until they pulled the head for an unrelated issue (although both problems may have the same cause).
If everything ran ok before, fix your head and keep motoring.
lmao. I certainly wasn't ready to hear that what he said earlier and I certainly wasnt ready to just take one man's advice even though he has made alot of sense with alot of things we talked about before me pulling the heads. Today was the first time i sent him the pics and talked to him, maybe he misunderstood me on something not sure.
yes I took the head off because of a broken spring, bent valve. I will take the other head off this wk sometime. And i couldnt even tell the valve was bent , my engine swapper said it was slight
Do i need to crank over the motor to clean the cylinders out? If not, how will or will there be coolant in that piston that is up?
I also want to learn more about the hone, bore, ect of the block. I have come a long way but always willing to learn more. I'm not sure what you mean about the hone pattern and im assuming though you mean inside the cylinder walls and how everything looks unmarked up, sort of clean and not scraped and cut up or whatever.........
sounds good and i couldnt even tell the valve was bent , my engine swapper said it was slight
Tricks and tips...
Intake manifold
My favorite trick that saves time and effort is the stay in place gasket. Be sure that you scrape (don't use a wire brush) all the old gasket material off, then clean all the surfaces with acetone or MEK.
When the surfaces are clean, use weather strip adhesive on the head to manifold surface, and on the side of the gasket that mates to the head. Follow the instructions on the tube or can and when it gets tacky, press the gasket down on the head.
Clean the area where the rubber rails mount to the block in front and in the rear with more acetone or MEK and do the same trick with the weather strip adhesive that you did to the heads.
Coat the rubber seals and the gasket area around the water passages with Blue Silicone gasket sealer and put it together. Whoopee! no leaks, and no gaskets that shifted out of place.
Get a tube of anti-seize and coat all the bolt threads and under the bolt heads. That will help insure even torque when you tighten the manifold bolts. Plan on re-torqueing them after a week’s worth of driving
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
The bolts are torqued down in a 3 step process.
Step 1 8 ft/lbs
Step 2 16 ft/lbs
Step 3 23-25 ft/lbs
Cylinder heads
The cylinder head bolts are reusable, but some new ARP bolts are a better plan. Be aware that the ARP bolts have a radiused shank under the bolt head. The ARP washers have a matching radius machined into them. Be sure that the machined radius of the washer is fitted next to the machined radius on the ARP bolt heads. Forget this little fact and you will never get the head bolts to torque down properly.
Coat the underside of all bolt heads with anti seize and the threads of the long bolts. The short bolts thread directly into the water jacket and need a different treatment. Use Teflon Pipe dope on the threads of the short head bolts. It will prevent any coolant seepage from around the threads. You can get the Teflon pipe dope from the hardware stores, Home Depot or Lowes.
Fuel injector seals
Fuel injector seal kits with 2 O rings and a pintle cap (Borg-Warner P/N 274081) are available at Pep Boys auto parts. Cost is about $3-$4 per kit. The pintle caps fit either injectors with a pin sticking out the injector end or 4 with more tiny holes in the injector end. The following are listed at the Borg-Warner site ( BWD - Home ) as being resellers of Borg-Warner parts:
Parts Plus - Premium Auto Parts & Accessories or Auto Value / Bumper to Bumper Quality Parts & Service - Home of the Aftermarket Auto Parts Alliance Group or Tires, Auto Parts Stores, Brakes & Automotive Parts | Pep Boys or Federated Auto Parts - Automotive Aftermarket
Most of the links above have store locators for find a store in your area.
Use motor oil on the O rings when you re-assemble them & everything will slide into place. The gasoline will wash away any excess oil that gets in the wrong places and it will burn up in the combustion chamber.
Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple.
Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole,
crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer
on the engine block.
The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor
to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.
Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing. If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that if it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.
At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light and start the engine. Set the timing where your car
runs best. Don't forget to disconnect the SPOUT jumper connector when you set the timing, and plug it back
in when you finish.
The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
[/b]
Intake manifold
My favorite trick that saves time and effort is the stay in place gasket. Be sure that you scrape (don't use a wire brush) all the old gasket material off, then clean all the surfaces with acetone or MEK.
When the surfaces are clean, use weather strip adhesive on the head to manifold surface, and on the side of the gasket that mates to the head. Follow the instructions on the tube or can and when it gets tacky, press the gasket down on the head.
Clean the area where the rubber rails mount to the block in front and in the rear with more acetone or MEK and do the same trick with the weather strip adhesive that you did to the heads.
Coat the rubber seals and the gasket area around the water passages with Blue Silicone gasket sealer and put it together. Whoopee! no leaks, and no gaskets that shifted out of place.
Get a tube of anti-seize and coat all the bolt threads and under the bolt heads. That will help insure even torque when you tighten the manifold bolts. Plan on re-torqueing them after a week’s worth of driving
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
The bolts are torqued down in a 3 step process.
Step 1 8 ft/lbs
Step 2 16 ft/lbs
Step 3 23-25 ft/lbs
Cylinder heads
The cylinder head bolts are reusable, but some new ARP bolts are a better plan. Be aware that the ARP bolts have a radiused shank under the bolt head. The ARP washers have a matching radius machined into them. Be sure that the machined radius of the washer is fitted next to the machined radius on the ARP bolt heads. Forget this little fact and you will never get the head bolts to torque down properly.
Coat the underside of all bolt heads with anti seize and the threads of the long bolts. The short bolts thread directly into the water jacket and need a different treatment. Use Teflon Pipe dope on the threads of the short head bolts. It will prevent any coolant seepage from around the threads. You can get the Teflon pipe dope from the hardware stores, Home Depot or Lowes.
Fuel injector seals
Fuel injector seal kits with 2 O rings and a pintle cap (Borg-Warner P/N 274081) are available at Pep Boys auto parts. Cost is about $3-$4 per kit. The pintle caps fit either injectors with a pin sticking out the injector end or 4 with more tiny holes in the injector end. The following are listed at the Borg-Warner site ( BWD - Home ) as being resellers of Borg-Warner parts:
Parts Plus - Premium Auto Parts & Accessories or Auto Value / Bumper to Bumper Quality Parts & Service - Home of the Aftermarket Auto Parts Alliance Group or Tires, Auto Parts Stores, Brakes & Automotive Parts | Pep Boys or Federated Auto Parts - Automotive Aftermarket
Most of the links above have store locators for find a store in your area.
Use motor oil on the O rings when you re-assemble them & everything will slide into place. The gasoline will wash away any excess oil that gets in the wrong places and it will burn up in the combustion chamber.
Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple.
Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole,
crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer
on the engine block.
The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor
to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.
Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing. If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing. Note that if it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range.
At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light and start the engine. Set the timing where your car
runs best. Don't forget to disconnect the SPOUT jumper connector when you set the timing, and plug it back
in when you finish.
The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
Last edited:
Also as far as the upgraded TF Springs, do i need to get them from Trick Flow? I know alot of vendors have the same product for cheaper though I havent checked around on the TF springs yet. I was going to call Trick Flow and see how much theirs is and what they recommend for my application.
just called TF and guy said the stock springs load lbs are 110 and the kit number he gave me for summit has a 125 lb load pressure rating and cam max lift goes up from .540 to .600
Also I want to replace the studs on my headers. I will sand the headers themselves, just the rusted areas , and paint the headers. Whats you guys thoughts on painting them? I have heard some say it will burn off and others said theirs turned out fine when using the correct Hi Temp paint. I definitely will at least try them, i mean what will i have to lose? As for the studs I should be able to go to the hardware store and get replacements right?
just called TF and guy said the stock springs load lbs are 110 and the kit number he gave me for summit has a 125 lb load pressure rating and cam max lift goes up from .540 to .600
Also I want to replace the studs on my headers. I will sand the headers themselves, just the rusted areas , and paint the headers. Whats you guys thoughts on painting them? I have heard some say it will burn off and others said theirs turned out fine when using the correct Hi Temp paint. I definitely will at least try them, i mean what will i have to lose? As for the studs I should be able to go to the hardware store and get replacements right?
Last edited:
mikestang63
SN Certified Technician
To the OP, before you invest one more penny on that motor, get the deck surface clean and lay a straight edge on it. If it is not level, you need to pull that motor out and have the deck milled or it will never seal properly. Same for the head surface. If not level, take it to a machine shop and have them give it a very light mill.
As mentioned by others, you need to get all the surfaces squeaky clean- block surface, pistons, heads, bolt holes. That is the #1 cause of gasket failure. I would try and deburr that one piston relief to avoid a hot spot or a valve hitting as it appears to be raised a little. One more thing I would say- in addition to thread sealer on the top head bolts, use ARP assembly lube or molu lube on all the head bolts. I like the Felpro 9333 head gaskets.
For the valve springs, you can get the upgraded TFS ones or call Ed @ TFI. His springs are much better but also double the price.
For painting the headers, I've had good success with VHT ceramic header paint. It leaves a nice durable silver surface.
As mentioned by others, you need to get all the surfaces squeaky clean- block surface, pistons, heads, bolt holes. That is the #1 cause of gasket failure. I would try and deburr that one piston relief to avoid a hot spot or a valve hitting as it appears to be raised a little. One more thing I would say- in addition to thread sealer on the top head bolts, use ARP assembly lube or molu lube on all the head bolts. I like the Felpro 9333 head gaskets.
For the valve springs, you can get the upgraded TFS ones or call Ed @ TFI. His springs are much better but also double the price.
For painting the headers, I've had good success with VHT ceramic header paint. It leaves a nice durable silver surface.
I've never seen a 302 block warp. I mean it doesn't hurt to check, but they just don't warp. It takes a lot to even get an aftermarket head to warp.
Kurt
Kurt
yeah the trick flow upgraded kit is $199 so i'm guessing Ed's will be 400? I will call him tommorow if i remember.
what will be different about his springs in relation to my car and it not being a race, non track car, or better yet what would be the advantages of paying double?
I do plan on when I need to, rebuilding to possibly a 331 and might at that time let him port my heads or sell them and get another set, not sure. I'm more likely to work with what I have
what about the hose that's connected to the power steering pump if I want to remove the whole power steering bracket to paint the pulley that hose would need to be removed but I don't want to open the system so do I have to just remove the pulley itself
I mean I know I have to remove the bracket any way to remove the head but I still want to paint that pulley
I mean I know I have to remove the bracket any way to remove the head but I still want to paint that pulley
Similar threads
