Rick Swain 96-98 Heads vs 99 PI Heads

[stormshadow]

Hi guys,
I was debating swapping my 98 heads with a set of 99+PI heads. I was shopping around and it seemed to be more of a headache. I mean getting a new intake and some other misc. parts and not to mention the labor involved installing this set up. I was in the process of purchasing a set but I went to livernoismotorsports.com and a gentleman by the name of Rick Swain (real cool guy by the way) claims that he can make the 96-98 heads flow better and produce more power than a stock and modified 99 PI head . He faxed me a comparison flow sheet and it looks very promising. He is in the process of testing a stock 98 mustang gt with the 99pi heads, the FMS 96-98 replacement heads and of course Mr. Rick Swain's 96-98 heads w/ PI cams as well as livernois cams. If he is successful (which I have a feeling he will) this will make the 99pi head swap history. This will be considered a direct replacement so of course the labor of installation will be allot less and you can still use your original intake and all other parts. NO MORE HEADACHES. I will keep you guys posted and when I get some dyno comparison numbers I will post them. This will definitely be something to look out for.

 

[san~man]

Interesting, but consider this: why hasn't a place like Fox Lake done it yet? Also, what's the cost? I'm sure if he's extensively working the older non-PI heads to get good numbers, a LOT of labor time is involved.

Just a thought. Nothing can be decided until the dyno numbers and curves are shown.

 

[KenB]

I already posted this reply to your thread on the corral, but for those that don't make it to both boards:

First let me start off by saying that Rick is a very nice guy and knows what he is doing. He did some extra porting work on my heads.

With that said, I don't agree with him on this one. He has already done this on one car with a pretty poor result. But, this car could have other issues that I'm not aware of. No matter how you look at it, a ported PI head will out flow a ported NonPI head.

Here's that guys story:
http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=815

and a follow up:

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1066

Good luck!!

 

[mrvax]

Been there, done that.

Many people on Corral.net have tried that. The very best ever done was people who got the 96-98 heads ported and polished and larger valves to flow almost as good as stock 99+ heads to about 4000 rpm. After that, the PI heads are superior. Why do you think Ford redesigned the heads? They made the Mustang GT go from 225 to 260 in one quick shot.

If you want to play with your old heads...go right ahead. I'll always be faster though.

 

[JohnnyLangton]

I already posted this reply to your thread on the corral, but for those that don't make it to both boards:

First let me start off by saying that Rick is a very nice guy and knows what he is doing. He did some extra porting work on my heads.

With that said, I don't agree with him on this one. He has already done this on one car with a pretty poor result. But, this car could have other issues that I'm not aware of. No matter how you look at it, a ported PI head will out flow a ported NonPI head.

Here's that guys story:
http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=815

and a follow up:

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1066

Good luck!!

Personally I think it's the quality of the portwork,and the tune.
My car this time last year (HOT!) with pretty much all of the bolt-ons ran consistent 14.60's,with the best being a [email protected].
Since then I've swapped out for a set of properly ported non-PI's, and a slightly fresher stock early romeo shortblock(40K miles),and a looser convertor.
2 weeks ago..in the same type of weather conditions as last year(95+ degrees,90% or higher humidity,and approx 29.80 BP),I ran a [email protected] a retune..That's over 5mph and 8 tenths quicker.
It needs some tuning right now as well...it has a few little issues.
JL

 

[tucunare]

Very dissapointed

Several things bother me here, Ken B. I'm very disappointed in your post. you make statements about what can and can't be achieved with non P.I. heads and make statements about their airflow potential. You obviously don't own or have ever operated a flowbench let alone done any serious development with modular heads. The only reason a stock P.I head is better than a stock Non-P.I. is they flow more at low and mid lift. A properly prepped 96-98 head not only flows more than a P.I. but considerably more than a Ported P.I. from .400 on up due to the much better port shape. People become easily misinformed by getting their information from msg. boards by individuals making bogus statements and posting them like they're facts

 

[Bluehail]

Several things bother me here, Ken B. I'm very disappointed in your post. you make statements about what can and can't be achieved with non P.I. heads and make statements about their airflow potential. You obviously don't own or have ever operated a flowbench let alone done any serious development with modular heads. The only reason a stock P.I head is better than a stock Non-P.I. is they flow more at low and mid lift. A properly prepped 96-98 head not only flows more than a P.I. but considerably more than a Ported P.I. from .400 on up due to the much better port shape. People become easily misinformed by getting their information from msg. boards by individuals making bogus statements and posting them like they're facts

I am skeptical of your post. Could you post any flowgraphs or any additional information.

 

[984.6gt]

OK this is ALL I have to say, a NA Non PI headed 96-98 GT will NEVER see 300RWHP, never, it will not happen, many 96-98 cars with 99+ heads have already done it, so that in itself is your answer.

 

[KenB]

Several things bother me here, Ken B. I'm very disappointed in your post. you make statements about what can and can't be achieved with non P.I. heads and make statements about their airflow potential. You obviously don't own or have ever operated a flowbench let alone done any serious development with modular heads. The only reason a stock P.I head is better than a stock Non-P.I. is they flow more at low and mid lift. A properly prepped 96-98 head not only flows more than a P.I. but considerably more than a Ported P.I. from .400 on up due to the much better port shape. People become easily misinformed by getting their information from msg. boards by individuals making bogus statements and posting them like they're facts

I'm not trying to spread disinformation. I simply stated my OPINION. I'm all for you proving me wrong. Flow bench numbers don't mean squat to me unless you are flowing the non-pi and pi heads back to back on the same bench by the same person.

Show me one NA car with Non-PI heads putting down good numbers on the dyno or at the track. Why is it that there are none? I've been hearing how a properly ported non pi head will outflow a properly ported PI head for a year or more yet no one has shown me a car that has delivered.

I'm all for new ideas and getting the most out of a motor. So I'm seriously not closed off to this idea. It's just that I haven't seen a single car prove that a non pi head is better.

Also, I proved links to the car above. Those heads were done by Livernois and tuned by Livernois. So really, it can't be blamed on the owner of the car. Could he be having unrelated problems? Sure. But his car is not very promising.

And if you happen to be Rick (you seem pretty defensive) I'm not trying to bash you. You did a wonderful job on my heads and my numbers on the dyno and track prove it. I've been recommending you ever since. This is a discussion board and that's what we are here to do. Discuss new ideas. You attacked me by saying that I don't know what I'm talking about. As far as heads and flowbenches go, you are mostly right. That's why I paid someone else to do it. But the thing is, I don't need to know what I'm talking about here. I can judge things based on the results that they provide.

So far, I haven't seen any results. Show me a car with results better than mine and maybe even I'll switch to Non-PI heads.

 

[BelueLX]

Id like to see some numbers and track times for these ultra high flow non-PI head. All Ive heard is comments so far.

 

[mrvax]

Id like to see some numbers and track times for these ultra high flow non-PI head. All Ive heard is comments so far.

Agreed.

Ho-hum. I've heard the same old sad story for over a year without hearing any good dyno/track proven results. Sorry, the early heads are just not very good.

Saying 96-98 heads are great when ported/polished is a very bold claim. Let's see some proof. Until then they should be treated with their due respect. Boat anchors and door stops come to mind.

 

[JohnnyLangton]

Agreed.

Ho-hum. I've heard the same old sad story for over a year without hearing any good dyno/track proven results. Sorry, the early heads are just not very good.

Saying 96-98 heads are great when ported/polished is a very bold claim. Let's see some proof. Until then they should be treated with their due respect. Boat anchors and door stops come to mind.

Is 5.4mph and 8 tenths not enough?
Same car,same weahther,same mods..
Or does a heavier Thunderbird with a less efficient IRS driveline not count?
It'll be on the dyno soon for a few tweaks to make sure all is good with the tune.
The only thing I can see possibly being a cork is the intake manifold,and if that's the case..an SVO intake will solve that.
As far as the over 300 rwhp coment above..I don't see very many swapped cars making that-most average 260 to the wheels.
JL

 

[KenB]

Johnny, your car doesn't count.

1) You changed the shortblock also
2) You're just telling us how much you picked up from porting the Non PI heads

I want to see a car with Non PI heads with similar mods to mine put out over 300rwhp

 

[JohnnyLangton]

Ken,it's a stone-stock early romeo shortblock..and it does have 40K miles...I didn't feel it was fair to put them on my old 215K mile shortblock..but considerig how it looked when I tore it down-I should have
JL

 

[tucunare]

Not Defensive

Ken, just to let you know I wasn't being defensive at all, your comment was " any way you look at it a ported non P.I. will never flow as good as a ported P.I " that is a statement , "Not" an opinion. it also happens to be a false statement as well. Both modified heads were indeed flowed on a superflow 1020 with active flowcom. all test were done on the same 90.2 mm. bore with the same gasket and dowel fixtures. I certainly wouldn't be able to gather any meaningful data if I was switching flowbenches and bores during testing..and yes, you figured me out. I'm glad to hear your motor's running well. Those heads were a basket case and a prime example of someone that clearly didn't know whats important in making horsepower. I also appreciate the good comments toward me, thank you!. As far as the car with the poor results, there's clearly something missing. We've done modified 2002 stickshift cars with ported heads making 275 rwhp and they scream, the same car with an automatic dropped in would easily drop to 240 or perhaps even lower and his car made 241 rwhp, chassis dyno's don't lie nor do they understand what year head was on the motor. As far nobody ever having success with that head, if they're done like many heads I see there's no wonder at it, most people open up the port, install bigger valves and make the port look all pretty for the customer, unfortunatly those are the least important things to be done and often why heads are so expensive and don't make the h.p. gains they should. your heads were the shining example of a big pretty cnc'd port with big valves that got their butt whipped by a bone stock P.I. head with stock valves up to .400 lift and only was clearly better from .500 and up, an area that just doesn't matter with camshafts that lift under .550. We're in the process as we speak of comparing all modular pieces on the engine dyno, all parts will be tested on the same 98 motor, stock P.I. head swap, ported versions, camshafts in both and also with the non P.I head ported with cam swaps and even the motorsport 98 head, tests are on the way, please be patient, this will be good info for us all.

 

[984.6gt]

Is 5.4mph and 8 tenths not enough?
Same car,same weahther,same mods..
Or does a heavier Thunderbird with a less efficient IRS driveline not count?
It'll be on the dyno soon for a few tweaks to make sure all is good with the tune.
The only thing I can see possibly being a cork is the intake manifold,and if that's the case..an SVO intake will solve that.
As far as the over 300 rwhp coment above..I don't see very many swapped cars making that-most average 260 to the wheels.
JL

I have seen you here alot talking about the Non PI heads, and everytime I hear you support them but you run HIGH HIGH 13's? I mean I know you don't have a mustang but that is still slow, and with Longtubes, Off road Exhaut, and all the little bolt-ons a 96-98 GT can make up to 320 RWHP with ported 99+ heads, the Non PI heads are garbage, they suck ass, like I said before, no NA car with them in any condition ported or not will make 300+ RWHP, **** I have seen some with blowers running 8-9 PSI and have like 290+ RWHP it is horrible, you are honestly fighting a losing cause, with ported PI heads and cams you could have gained 10MPH and even more time, this is true, I have seen 96-98 cars go from low 90's to low 100's with STOCK 99+ heads, look, Ford knew they ****ed up and fixed the problem in 99, it happens.

 

[Jr2fast]

Wow flamefest going on in here. I am no expert on the subject for sure, but should we not take into consideration the compression increase also giving some hp not the actual flow or porting of the head but the compression. With that said if you were to test the PI heads and the stock 98 heads you would already be at a disadvantage because fo the compression. Someone step in and tell me I am stupid but is this correct. I swapped my car and I am glad I did and my new heads were not ported and the difference is night and day and about 7 tenths and 8 MPH

JL your car does not count I think it's a factory freak

Dont try to use my times after the headswap against anyone who has swapped cause I ran mine with a 3 speed auto (no 2nd) and still almost hit 13

 

[MoNsTaMaCk24]

You know I have a 97 GT convertible I looked highly into ported and polished non pi heads and put pi cams on them. Non PI heads isnt the worse heads out there. It is clear to say that. Now are they better than PI I am not saying that either. But I will say I got stage 3 ported and polished PI heads in my room with some aftermarket cams... So I clearly made my choice

 

[david l gary]

PI cams And PI heads


The new heads Flow better granted. Mainly on the exhaust side. This is because of a larger exhaust valve. I have seen the flow numbers on both sets of stock heads. The intake flow numbers are within 15 cfm of eachother across the board. The exhaust is where the PI heads shine. At low to mid lift they stomp on the nonPI heads. But mind you that at Max lift the numbers were about the same again. The restriction starts becoming the port not the valve. Taking into consideration the compression increase the Ported non pi heads with bigger valves usually work better with supercharges than the PI head. Remember I am saying Worked nonpi heads. 11 to 1 compression will blow pistons out the bottom with a supercharger. IN normally aspirated engines the compression increase is good. The flow numbers of the intakes (the plastic pieces) I do not have, and agree that the PI will prabably flow better. Just remember that we live in a country with the freedom of choice. Other wise we would be driving WS6's that make more power than we do.

 

[cobra killer]

Several things bother me here, Ken B. I'm very disappointed in your post. you make statements about what can and can't be achieved with non P.I. heads and make statements about their airflow potential. You obviously don't own or have ever operated a flowbench let alone done any serious development with modular heads. The only reason a stock P.I head is better than a stock Non-P.I. is they flow more at low and mid lift. A properly prepped 96-98 head not only flows more than a P.I. but considerably more than a Ported P.I. from .400 on up due to the much better port shape. People become easily misinformed by getting their information from msg. boards by individuals making bogus statements and posting them like they're facts

You have no short radius in the 98 heads.Of course you can get the numbers to flow the same as 99P.I. heads.But you loose velosity and the power gains are not even close to 99heads.
I can argue this because I have been involved with both...My car made over 100 more RWHP then a good ported set off 98 heads..
You can argue all you want about "flow" numbers,velocity is something you never get and the numbers will never equal P.I heads.
Not to say you cant make power with 98 heads because you can.But they will not equal the P.I heads.
I'll gladly toss a set of Anyones Best of the Best 98 heads on my car and allow them to be present during tuning.You will not beat my numbers with those heads..Challenge is out,step up to the plate if your confident enough.I get tired of these misleading threads.Non P.I heads work good,but they are not as good as P.I heads.
I can swap heads in about 6 hours because mine is a full race setup.We can dyno the same day tuning with a FAST unit.I'll bet money with my car in its current state and current portwork on my heads,the Best of the Best 98 heads fall over 250rwhp behind me..Feel like proving me wrong?

Tim