IRS poll

[ttown]

If the 350z doesn't do it for you, how about the RX-8? 25k.

Although I don't see it hurting sales initially, I think that down the road, IRS will have to become standard. The Mustang has new competition. Its not just cars with V8s but WRXs, 350z, RX-8, EVO, SRT-4. All of these vehicles are formidable competition right now. Given the fact that most of these cars can run with a 99+ GT and handle better, which car will a non biased buyer pick?

I biased. I love Mustangs. I wouldn't own any other sporty type car. However, not all people are as loyal as I. They will buy the best performing car for the cheapest price.

Finally, if you wanted a 22k Camaro, you should have went to the dealer and ordered one. Secondly, they were giving the things away. I'm sure you could have gotten a 26k model for 22k. No one was buying them. Only a sucker pays MSRP. Hell, I bet if you did your homework, you could walk out of the dealership tomorrow with an '04 Mustang GT 5sp Premium for 20k.

Oh you mean the RX8 that they promised the world and couldn't deliever but tried to cut it to the bone because of it? They still had offer to buy back of the whole lot of them. And as for the Camaro I live next door to a GM general manager and the dealership couldn't even get the car much less you ordering one, I tried. And as for an SRT4 my son owns one and it doesn't have anything at all on my 02 GT with that solid axle. Dyno results posted on www.tulsadyno.com under the dodge section (Daniel).

I don't mind expressing my opinion and it's my be right or wrong with Joe publics opinion but you are comparing cars that aren't any better than the GT with the ones in the price range of the GT. It's a give and take in the real world, you want handling for that price? Well there goes performance. As always you get what you pay for and those that market the world like the RX8 take it on the chin when they can't deliever. Maybe you should read the piece Mustang 5.0 did on the 01 corba, the Mach, and the Billitt. The Billitt with the solid axle won hand down, it's the set up not the system in many cases. Now if its the high dollar vette or viper IRS then were talking a different case but the Ford IRS system is a joke. Nothing more than a modified front wheel drive unit to save cost

 

[Mach460]

Nothing more than a modified front wheel drive unit to save cost

Ummm...not quite. It was a customed designed system based off the unit Saleen designed for his SR Le Mans Race cars. And the reason the IRS in the Cobra "sucks" (even though people have driven rave about it over the standard GT's ride) is because it's been put into a chassis that is not designed for it.

The Lincoln LS has been compared as the equal of the BMW 5-Series. Hey go figure...the 05 Mustang rides on a chassis based on the Lincoln LS.

 

[ttown]

Obviously BMW and Mercedes Benz are primitive in thes guys eyes.....and what do you know, they're RWD AND have IRS...and have had IRS for the last 40 years!

OK how many can afford one of these, I can and I could buy a Viper if I wanted but I will only spend so much on a car. I'd rather have 2 or 3 instead of one. The whole point you guys seem to be blind to is BMW/Mercedes make a product for the upper class not the working man and those models sell for 40k and wayyyy up. When they can make one for 25k-30k I'll buy one of each. Thing about the low end models the performance sucks compared to the GT.

This isn't about IRS as much as cost but you guys want to compare cars 15k and up to the mustang like you'd be buying it if it were 30k up.

Saleen designed ? What do those cost under 25k like the GT NOOOOOO. Let's talk apples to apples the only car your going to come up with is a 4 banger that handles good getting 35mpg with no performance. Like I said you get what you pay for.

 

[Mach460]

OK how many can afford one of these, I can and I could buy a Viper if I wanted but I will only spend so much on a car. I'd rather have 2 or 3 instead of one. The whole point you guys seem to be blind to is BMW/Mercedes make a product for the upper class not the working man and those models sell for 40k and wayyyy up. When they can make one for 25k-30k I'll buy one of each. Thing about the low end models the performance sucks compared to the GT.

This isn't about IRS as much as cost but you guys want to compare cars 15k and up to the mustang like you'd be buying it if it were 30k up.

Ok..then how come the most mundane commuter cars have fully independent suspension. How come a 15,000 Focus has independent rear suspension? By your logic, it should have an I-beam rear end.

We're not making it about cost...you guys are. But the evidence exists that there are car out there in the Mustangs price range that perform just as well..but ride and handle better.

Yeah Saleen designed...but go figure...a suspension system that was designed for a 250,000 race car found it's way into a 30,000 Sports Coupe (the Cobra).

So why can't I have IRS in a 25,000 dollar American performance car? Why should I have to go the imports to get a car that handles and perform as well if not better than a Mustang.

 

[NicksGT]

Oh you mean the RX8 that they promised the world and couldn't deliever but tried to cut it to the bone because of it? They still had offer to buy back of the whole lot of them. And as for the Camaro I live next door to a GM general manager and the dealership couldn't even get the car much less you ordering one, I tried. And as for an SRT4 my son owns one and it doesn't have anything at all on my 02 GT with that solid axle. Dyno results posted on www.tulsadyno.com under the dodge section (Daniel).

I don't mind expressing my opinion and it's my be right or wrong with Joe publics opinion but you are comparing cars that aren't any better than the GT with the ones in the price range of the GT. It's a give and take in the real world, you want handling for that price? Well there goes performance. As always you get what you pay for and those that market the world like the RX8 take it on the chin when they can't deliever. Maybe you should read the piece Mustang 5.0 did on the 01 corba, the Mach, and the Billitt. The Billitt with the solid axle won hand down, it's the set up not the system in many cases. Now if its the high dollar vette or viper IRS then were talking a different case but the Ford IRS system is a joke. Nothing more than a modified front wheel drive unit to save cost

Your right.... The Camaro was in such high demand. GM couldn't keep up with demand and the prices were so high on these cars. In fact GM built so many of these cars that they are making them today right? Maybe in your area they price gouged them, but I talked to a dealer that was selling SSs for 25k.

Now, if I remember correctly, you we saying that only really expensive cars that have IRS like Corvette, Viper, M3 are. Then you said that a 350z cost 30k and could not be compared to a GT. So you telling me that we can't compare a GT to a RX-8 because Ford (oops I mean Mazda) over rated the engine on automatic versions? Give me a break.

Fact is this my friend, the competition is gaining. Yeah, we can pick GTs up for 20k now, but when the new model comes out, I doubt Ford will be selling them for 20k. They will sell around MSRP for the first few years. You can be sure that over the next few years, all of these cars will get bumps in horsepower.

Now, I believe that 5.0 picked the Bullitt over the Cobra because the Bullitt felt stronger down low, where the Cobra has to be reved to be fast. Their decision was based on the fact that because the Bullitt had more low end torque, it was more fun to drive around town.

How about we put the Bullitt up against a '03 Cobra and see what they pick eh?

215 hp and 241 ft/lbs of torque in a car the weighs 2970 lbs. What does he have done to it..... Sounds alittle over rated to me? Are they supposed to be 215 at the crank? Consider this: A good 99+ GT will dyno at 230hp and will weigh 3300 lbs.

 

[ttown]

Ok..then how come the most mundane commuter cars have fully independent suspension. How come a 15,000 Focus has independent rear suspension? By your logic, it should have an I-beam rear end.

We're not making it about cost...you guys are. But the evidence exists that there are car out there in the Mustangs price range that perform just as well..but ride and handle better.

Okay the focus is a good little car. You've got the 4 cyclinder car with 35mpg and absolutly NO power, just like I said. You add torque and it's a whole new ball game. You get on it with the new Corbra from a stop and you'll flat rip out the IRS half shafts in it in no time.

I know some want to believe that IRS would only be a $500 dollar optioin. Just like many said I was wrong when the new GT would weigh more than the present one. But part of that handling is a thing called a package. The wide sticky tire and larger wheels that come one these cars have a lot to do with it. You couldn't ever get those for a $500 option. They aren't running the smaller GT's gatorbacks on the cars you name.

I think I've said all I can say, you either understand or you don't and it's really just one guys opinion.

 

[Mach460]

Okay the focus is a good little car. You've got the 4 cyclinder car with 35mpg and absolutly NO power, just like I said. You add torque and it's a whole new ball game. You get on it with the new Corbra from a stop and you'll flat rip out the IRS half shafts in it in no time.

That's a weak argument to say the least (and a favorite one among the pro live axle set), though there really is no evidence that an IRS system is inhrenetly weaker. Otherwise you'd be seeing Formula 1 cars with live rear axles. And live axles have hlafshafts as well...so they're just as vulnerable as a IRS.

I know some want to believe that IRS would only be a $500 dollar optioin. Just like many said I was wrong when the new GT would weigh more than the present one. But part of that handling is a thing called a package.

But when one part of that package is flawed, then it affects the entire package. And no amount of tuning will eliminate the fundamental flaws. Physics is kind of funny in that way.

 

[66Satellite]

If you want IRS, just bolt it in yourself. It's gonna be available aftermarket and probably as an option in the near future. No big deal.

 

[Mach460]

If you want IRS, just bolt it in yourself. It's gonna be available aftermarket and probably as an option in the near future. No big deal.

Yeah....you know..I have 1500 laying around the house and really want to mess up my warranty. It would have made it so much easier to make it part of my monthly payments. So yeah it's a pretty big deal. Plus...with a Mustang aftermarket heavily geared for the drag racing set...what are the chances of ever seeing the IRS in the aftermarket. Like we've been inundated with IRS for 79-04 Mustangs based on the Cobra IRS.

 

[ttown]

That's a weak argument to say the least (and a favorite one among the pro live axle set), though there really is no evidence that an IRS system is inhrenetly weaker. Otherwise you'd be seeing Formula 1 cars with live rear axles. And live axles have hlafshafts as well...so they're just as vulnerable as a IRS.




But when one part of that package is flawed, then it affects the entire package. And no amount of tuning will eliminate the fundamental flaws. Physics is kind of funny in that way.

I must be stupid I didn't know a Forumla car could be brought for 25k or so

Now were in the hundred of thousands dollar cars

You just don't get it do you, have a good night.

BTW IRS is a great design they just cost more when your putting power behind them and if Ford moves to the 30k+ it may be the end of it because of the comp. The GT is bang for the buck and always has been

 

[NicksGT]

Please Read:

Article Ford's conviction that Mustang owners are more drag- than road-racers is highlighted by the new car's one possible flaw. I say "possible" because the flat-as-a-pool-table 1.77-kilometre road course at the Blue Oval's proving grounds provided no opportunities to test the limitation of the Mustang's still-archaic live axle. Spruced up somewhat with an upper control arm and axle-mounted coil springs, the Mustang's solid rear axle will probably still be a limitation on bumpy roads. According to Hau Thai-Tang, chief nameplate engineer for the new Mustang, the solid axle is superior to an independent system for drag racing, something 30 per cent of Mustang owners participate in, said Thai-Tang.




Indeed, thanks to the new torque-control arm, there's virtually no wheel hop, even when the clutch is dumped at high revs. And with a new, shorter 3.55:1 rear axle ratio, the '05 'Stang is even more adept at quick launches. Nonetheless, it's worth noting that, according to Thai-Tang, engineering an independent rear system would have cost about $300 US, in the same region as the cost of the optional Shaker Audiophile stereo system with 1,000 watts.


You read that right: 1,000, ear-popping, nose-bleeding, parent-frustrating watts of hip-hop-blaring subwoofer. The Shaker system uses no less than four ported versions of the same (one in each door and two in the trunk) for a sound just a little less deafening than a 747 taking off from your living room.


What strikes me as off, though, is that most of your mobile boom-box aficionados are import-intenders, more attuned to Hondas and other relatively sophisticated sport coupes, while you hardly ever see a lowered, nitroused and Mickey Thmpsoned Mustang blaring out Tupac. So why, in fact, did Ford bother developing a 1000-watt system (when they already offer a perfectly-able-to-render-deafness 500-watt version) and not bother with the independent rear suspension? No doubt it's a question a focus group could answer.

It would have cost Ford $300 dollars to put it in to the car (not the option price) $300. Are you telling me that $300 dollars is that much more money? They had to develop a whole new suspension half way though development because some bozo didn't want to pay an extra $300 dollars to build the car. That is the price of the brand new "ricer" changing light scheme. Give me a break. Straight from the Lead Engineers mouth $300. So much for IRS making the Mustang "so expensive" that we would have to pay 50 billion dollars for it.

We are fighting over $300 dollars that would effect the final cost of the car. If prices is the reason why you want don't want IRS, let not your heart be troubled, its only $300.

However, if broken half shafts are such a problem on stock '03 Cobras, then why are guys running 10s on stock suspensions? I think that is plenty fast for a street car.

 

[Mach460]

I must be stupid I didn't know a Forumla car could be brought for 25k or so

Now were in the hundred of thousands dollar cars

You just don't get it do you, have a good night.

BTW IRS is a great design they just cost more when your putting power behind them and if Ford moves to the 30k+ it may be the end of it because of the comp. The GT is bang for the buck and always has been

Somebody doesn't get it..and it's not me. Your argument is that for some reason Ford is somehow incapable of designing and installing the IRS in the Mustang w/out driving the price up to 30,000. And I'm telling you that the evidnece exist that there are other cars that are either cheaper or costs the same as the Mustang, yet do have IRS. Why is IRS some unattainable goal that can only be had in econo boxes, sporty imports, or luxo sport tourers?


Oh...and BTW....you can get a nice Van Diemen Formula Ford 2000 for about 25k and go racing.

 

[Mach460]

We are fighting over $300 dollars that would effect the final cost of the car. If prices is the reason why you want don't want IRS, let not your heart be troubled, its only $300.

However, if broken half shafts are such a problem on stock '03 Cobras, then why are guys running 10s on stock suspensions? I think that is plenty fast for a street car.

Well it just seems that the argument being made that for the Mustang to have IRS and all the benefist that come with, it's all of a sudden going to drive the price of a Mustang GT into BMW territory. I don't believe that's true. So the fundamental question is why Ford chose to listen to only 30% of the market?

 

[ttown]

Somebody doesn't get it..and it's not me. Your argument is that for some reason Ford is somehow incapable of designing and installing the IRS in the Mustang w/out driving the price up to 30,000. And I'm telling you that the evidnece exist that there are other cars that are either cheaper or costs the same as the Mustang, yet do have IRS. Why is IRS some unattainable goal that can only be had in econo boxes, sporty imports, or luxo sport tourers?


Oh...and BTW....you can get a nice Van Diemen Formula Ford 2000 for about 25k and go racing.

Let's review real slow:

1. GT= Ford's entry level performance car (always has been)= joe public can buy it for the price of a regular car.

2. Cobra/Mach/Boss/whatever= 2/3 level above it with options for anyone not wanting base cheaper car (which some don't want to spring for the cost)

3. Ford GT=Super Car

4. If that doesn't float your boat, ford let's 3rd parties make cars that differ to fill the void.

Now the GM model:

GTO/GTP entry level car= over 30k
vette= upscale 40ish car

 

[JaysGreenLX]

Let's review real slow:

1. GT= Ford's entry level performance car (always has been)= joe public can buy it for the price of a regular car.

2. Cobra/Mach/Boss/whatever= 2/3 level above it with options for anyone not wanting base cheaper car (which some don't want to spring for the cost)

3. Ford GT=Super Car

4. If that doesn't float your boat, ford let's 3rd parties make cars that differ to fill the void.

Now the GM model:

GTO/GTP entry level car= over 30k
vette= upscale 40ish car

That still doesn't change the fact that my Saturn that I paid $1900 has IRS. My father's Grand Prix $18k. IRS. Ford Escapes are pretty cheap and they have IRS. Mazda 6.......IRS for about 24K

 

[Omegalock]

The cost of the IRS is speculative. Let's remember that the chassis was designed from the onset for IRS (it's based on the DEW98). As for weight, the added weight is minimal. Do you drag race seriously..Street Outlaw? Why should we placate the minority of Mustang owners?

I don't drag seriously YET however I don't want to have to fork over extra cash to put in place something there was no reason what so ever not to get from the factory. Live axles are more durable,they are lighter, they are cheaper, and they can still be made to have decent street manners.
And again where are you getting the minority wants this. I want you guys to find me explicitly where it states 70% of Stang owners WANT an IRS.

Do you want a Mustang with manageable street manners...or do you want a Mustang that can handle with the best of them.

As I said before I don't drive like a moron on the street so managable street manners means exactly that. Handle with the best of them.....hell let's get AWD while we are at it if we want to do that.

There's a reason why BMW earned the tag line "the Ultimate Driving Machine". Do you want the Mustang to appeal to the classic American muscle car crowd (which is getting smaller and smaller every year) or do you want the Mustang to grow and attract new buyers and attract people who would otherwise buy a 350Z.

I want it to attract the kids who want power but can't afford an expensive car. I want a car that won't allienate long time loyalists in an attempt to pander to a crowd that may look down on the car no matter what. Ford can cater to the 350Z and EVO buying crowd in another model and not their stock 25k car.

The Mustang isn't going to make a profit by attracting drag racers and 19 year old college girls alone. You don't have to drive the Mustang to extremes to know the live axle's limitations. Like I've said, I go over a bridge expansion joint on the highway and the rear end is all over the place. The first sign of rain of snow and I'm near panic mode.

Funny because that's exactly what they have been doing for the last 20 years. Unless you want to tell me Ford should also stick the IRS on the V6 model. I've driven live axle cars and trucks(both with substantial power) at relative high speeds and have driven them both in the rain the average person can easily make do.

Depends on the car you're talking about. You a guy who drives a 350Z, and put him in a Mustang GT..and yeah, he'll tell you the difference.

That's great take the average person and put them in the two cars and then have them make the choice would they rather pay the extra 1000 bucks to get that ride. And before you say the pricing is argueable think about the fact the IRS they were planning on putting in place was 300 bucks cost to them. That we know.

Like I said, you don't have to drive like a nutjob to appreciate the superior handling that the IRS offers. A more supple, smoother, and positive ride.

To of which most people are absolutely oblivious to unless the ride is just bone jarring, cramped or generally uncomforatable. All things easily addressed with a good setup on a live axle. I can "appreciate" a cushier ride but I can appreciate a 1000 bucks in my pocket when I don't need it just as the average person would.

To placate a small percentage of the market and the risk not attracting new buyers is bad business as well. The most important thing about the car is how it drives. If the cars potential buyer's are turned off by the cars handling and go to the 350Z, how's that good business?

Again show me were the guys who actively said they WANT a live axle was the minority over the guys who said they wanted an IRS. The majority of Mustang buyers are going to buy a V6. The majority of people who would buy a GT want affordable performance of which a powerful V8 RWD and a live axle readily give. You tell me which would be more detrimental to Mustang sales. Guys who still might not buy a Mustang over a 350Z simply because it's a Mustang even if the STang got the IRS. Or die hards and kids that can't afford the extra cost of an IRS giving Ford the collective finger and going else where. You keep bringing up the Z and I noticed the STi and Evo are brought up as well. Those cars cost more money. Simply put if you want to play with those guys beg Ford for a mid level car like a modern day Boss and stop trying to push the GT into something it hasn't been for over 20 years. I and others would not appreciate that going out the window.
I am stating right now if Ford tries to force me to pay for an IRS I'm out.
Give people the option if they want it nothing more needs to be done. If you want to pay extra go ahead be my guest. I promise you more people than not would chose not to excercise that option.

 

[JaysGreenLX]

I don't drag seriously YET however I don't want to have to fork over extra cash to put in place something there was no reason what so ever not to get from the factory. Live axles are more durable,they are lighter, they are cheaper, and they can still be made to have decent street manners.

Yeah they are cheaper. You can pick up and 8.8 with gears for 300 bucks easy. Thats a lot better than forking over $1500+ to convert to IRS from a live axle.

 

[ttown]

That still doesn't change the fact that my Saturn that I paid $1900 has IRS. My father's Grand Prix $18k. IRS. Ford Escapes are pretty cheap and they have IRS. Mazda 6.......IRS for about 24K

OK can you read you've name 3 cars with 4 cyclinder engines that get 35mpg NO POWER. I will run them and give you a block head start! These cars have no torque and can rely on a cheap front wheel drive type IRS unit. A 300 HP mustang isn't a Saturn, low end Grand Prix, or a Mazda 6. They are performance cars not ecom cars......

Please read what I've said before you repeat what I've already said what you can find in cheap IRS type cars. Those people are bragging about there MPG not how fast they can go or take a turn. Even on the twisties a GT would kill them because of absolutly no hp/torque.

 

[Mach460]

Yeah they are cheaper. You can pick up and 8.8 with gears for 300 bucks easy. Thats a lot better than forking over $1500+ to convert to IRS from a live axle.

Yeah..and if he's going to do serious drag racing...he's going to be spending more tha 1500 for a live rear axle set-up that will handle the rigors of drag racing.

 

[ttown]

Yeah..and if he's going to do serious drag racing...he's going to be spending more tha 1500 for a live rear axle set-up that will handle the rigors of drag racing.

Wrong you can buy the works and bullet proof the 8.8 for $1500 or less. Axles gears and all.