Problem with new mustang

[spanky442]

By all means, no disrespect to Sept 11. The point is, and I think everyone but one understood that, is that we need to look out for everything that is out there. This applies to anything. We need to protect what we believe in. And I believe along with I'm sure others on this forum that the Mustang is an icon of American culture and should remain an icon for the simple reason it became an icon. It was an affordable sporty car that an average Joe American could afford to own and maintain.

 

[SVTdriver]

The reality is that cars go up in price nearly every year. It's called inflation. People will have to get used to it. The other reality is Ford has been marketing the mustang correctly for 40 years. Do you honestly think they would change it now. TO something that is a risky proposition? To get a completely new chassis/body/suspension/engine/interior. For $2k more than the current model. I say that's wonderful. Especially when you consider what is going into the car. This is going to have an all aluminum engine. The cost of an aluminum block is more expensive than an iron block. Yes the reality is people with low paying jobs. May not be able to afford a gt. The t-bird had issues other than price. The mustang has never been a rich man's toy. Nor will it likely ever become one.

 

[fly2low]

Ford has done the engine and the look right for the new Stang. If they can have a good suspension setup (and I mean good), improving the fit and finish while still guarding the price down, we have a champion by far.

Admit it guys, looking at the current Mustang's fit and finish after looking at most import cars' fit and finish is rather painful. I really mind the uneven gaps. Plastics are okay to keep the weight and cost down .

 

[Mach428]

Spanky no worries, the Mustang will allways be there due to the V6 stang. Ford makes most of their money of V6 stang because the people who go for those cars want something good looking that can still move pretty quick. Interesting statistic, I'm not sure where I reamember this from, but in 2002 there were 8 mustangs to every F-body on the road, don't worry, Mustang isn't turning into a F-body anytime soon. And since Ford made the 03-04 Machs, they pretty much made comp for themselves, I'm sure the 03-04 Machs are at a performance level that Ford will want to surpass in the future. With the Numbers they are pulling out, it looks like the 2001 Cobra 03/04 Machs are what they are currently aiming for. I race DirtBikes and this is sort of what Yamaha did with their YZ125 and YZ250F> Made themselves a competer

 

[Ron Jeremy]

SPANKY442 is 100% RIGHT here. I couldn't agree more. Prices of Mustangs and all other cars have got out of hand. I remember back in the early 70's when a nice American car cost only $3,000 to $4,000. Yes, I do agree that inflation has played a BIG role with the astronomical prices of cars. But still, cars are 5 to 7 times MORE EXPENSIVE today than they were back in the early 70's. And people's salaries have not gone up by much since the mid 70's. What's the average working person earn nowadays? $8 to $12 dollars an hour? That's not much when you are trying to afford to buy a brand new car nowadays like the Mustang GT for $22,000 and $23,000 . What I am trying to get across here is that people's salaries did NOT go up according to inflation. Automobile prices went up MUCH MORE than did people's salaries. Back in the 60's and early 70's, we didn't have this problem. Everything including automobiles were affordable for everyone. This is not the case in today's times. Today everything is OVERPRICED. And to conclude this, ALL automobiles, including the Mustang is overpriced. A Mustang should not cost the consumer anymore than $10,000, if you want my opinion. If you don't see my point here please don't argue with me about it. You obviously have no clue about inflation and about the dollar value. You also have no idea that when inflation goes up, people's salaries should go up proportionately with inflation. This hasn't happened here in this country with the increase of inflation. People are still making low wages when car and home prices and everything else in this country has skyrocketed. Understand what I am trying to say in here and you will agree with me that all cars are overpriced.

 

[SVTdriver]

I see you point somewhat Ron. But in 1987 I was making better than minimum wage at Denny's (just out of high school). And I was only making $4 an hour. Now minimum wage in most states is $7. So it has nearly doubled in that time. Your right we should have a pay increase that keeps up with inflation. But the reality is most of us won't get COLA raises unless we are in a union. By the way. I bought my 97 cobra making only $11 an hour.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

SVTDriver,
I am glad that you see eye to eye with me about this problem. Most working Americans earn between $8 to $12 per hour in this country. That's poverty level wages if you want to try and buy a brand new or even a used car. Try renting an apartment for $900 to $1,000 per month with those type of low wages. You can't. Everything is VERY expensive. Whatever everyone in here beleives, people's wages have not kept up with inflation in this country. Things will get worse. There will be mass poverty in this country within the next 10 to 20 years if this keeps happening. And don't argue with me about this because you are wrong if you think otherwise.

 

[SVTdriver]

SVTDriver,
I am glad that you see eye to eye with me about this problem. Most working Americans earn between $8 to $12 per hour in this country. That's poverty level wages if you want to try and buy a brand new or even a used car. Try renting an apartment for $900 to $1,000 per month with those type of low wages. You can't. Everything is VERY expensive. Whatever everyone in here beleives, people's wages have not kept up with inflation in this country. Things will get worse. There will be mass poverty in this country within the next 10 to 20 years if this keeps happening. And don't argue with me about this because you are wrong if you think otherwise.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/myths_john_stossel_040123-3.html

The reality however, is people who make $8 an hour. Usually an't looking to buy ANY new car (Hyundai/Kia maybe). And apartments vary a lot. I have a nice 2 bedroom for $1025. But there are many lower than that. It just depends on where you choose to live.

 

[GaPonyFarm]

SPANKY442 is 100% RIGHT here. I couldn't agree more. Prices of Mustangs and all other cars have got out of hand. I remember back in the early 70's when a nice American car cost only $3,000 to $4,000. Yes, I do agree that inflation has played a BIG role with the astronomical prices of cars. But still, cars are 5 to 7 times MORE EXPENSIVE today than they were back in the early 70's. And people's salaries have not gone up by much since the mid 70's. What's the average working person earn nowadays? $8 to $12 dollars an hour? That's not much when you are trying to afford to buy a brand new car nowadays like the Mustang GT for $22,000 and $23,000 . What I am trying to get across here is that people's salaries did NOT go up according to inflation. Automobile prices went up MUCH MORE than did people's salaries. Back in the 60's and early 70's, we didn't have this problem. Everything including automobiles were affordable for everyone. This is not the case in today's times. Today everything is OVERPRICED. And to conclude this, ALL automobiles, including the Mustang is overpriced. A Mustang should not cost the consumer anymore than $10,000, if you want my opinion. If you don't see my point here please don't argue with me about it. You obviously have no clue about inflation and about the dollar value. You also have no idea that when inflation goes up, people's salaries should go up proportionately with inflation. This hasn't happened here in this country with the increase of inflation. People are still making low wages when car and home prices and everything else in this country has skyrocketed. Understand what I am trying to say in here and you will agree with me that all cars are overpriced.

You can't have it both ways, Ron. First you say that everything is overpriced, then you say people are underpaid... the argument doesn't hold water.

Before you get wound up... I do agree with you in principle, but I go from the underpaid perspective. Look at senior white collar wages since the 70's...up multi-thousand percentage, blue collar wages about 400 percent on average. The nation minimum wage is $5.15 per hour, and thats the standard all hourly wages are based from. Cars are actually a good example. The 70's & 80's (high inflation) prices went up dramatically, year to year. Since the mid-90's prices have not risen much annually (low inflation period). Wages have remained flat for nearly 25 years for the working class, and have gone through the roof for the upper white collar class.

While not everybody deserves to be able to afford a new mustang or a $1000 a month apartment, those people who have gotten through at least high school, work hard, and show up everyday sober, do deserve a decent wage. Until the people in charge recognize the the working class keep this country going, our downward spiral will continue.

Now getting away from the political points... I thank Ford for keeping the cost of the Mustang down to a "reasonable" level and I'm sure they will continue to do so... They make money in volume, not a bunch on every car...as it should be. We just have to keep buying them.

As a working guy, I'll just keep buying those lotto tickets!

 

[shatner saves]

You can't have it both ways, Ron. First you say that everything is overpriced, then you say people are underpaid... the argument doesn't hold water.

Before you get wound up... I do agree with you in principle, but I go from the underpaid perspective. Look at senior white collar wages since the 70's...up multi-thousand percentage, blue collar wages about 400 percent on average. The nation minimum wage is $5.15 per hour, and thats the standard all hourly wages are based from. Cars are actually a good example. The 70's & 80's (high inflation) prices went up dramatically, year to year. Since the mid-90's prices have not risen much annually (low inflation period). Wages have remained flat for nearly 25 years for the working class, and have gone through the roof for the upper white collar class.

While not everybody deserves to be able to afford a new mustang or a $1000 a month apartment, those people who have gotten through at least high school, work hard, and show up everyday sober, do deserve a decent wage. Until the people in charge recognize the the working class keep this country going, our downward spiral will continue.

Now getting away from the political points... I thank Ford for keeping the cost of the Mustang down to a "reasonable" level and I'm sure they will continue to do so... They make money in volume, not a bunch on every car...as it should be. We just have to keep buying them.

As a working guy, I'll just keep buying those lotto tickets!

I applaud ford also.

I agree that the cost of new cars is pretty outrageous. My '92 LX 5.0 MSRP'd for $14,207 (GT was $15,243). These #'s come from cars.com.

Using an online inflation calculator:
http://www.cjr.org/tools/inflation/
"$13,000.00 in 1992 dollars becomes $16,709.51 in 2002 dollars."
$15,243.00 in 1992 dollars becomes $19,592.54 in 2002 dollars.

Let's round that up to $20k for the GT, as there really is no current equivalent for an LX 5.0 anymore. Could you imagine getting a new GT for $20k?!? Ford couldn't build them fast enough.

So if the new car retails for around $26k; where does the price difference come from?
+75 hp
aluminum block and heads
stonger tranny
rigid chassis
ULEV II emmisions compliance
ABS
traction control
Passenger air bag
better build quality (although that remains to be seen)
17" wheels
4 wheel disc brakes

That's just off the top of my head. IMO, $26k sounds damn good.

 

[mp67]

I applaud ford also.

I agree that the cost of new cars is pretty outrageous. My '92 LX 5.0 MSRP'd for $14,207 (GT was $15,243). These #'s come from cars.com.

Using an online inflation calculator:
http://www.cjr.org/tools/inflation/
"$13,000.00 in 1992 dollars becomes $16,709.51 in 2002 dollars."
$15,243.00 in 1992 dollars becomes $19,592.54 in 2002 dollars.

Let's round that up to $20k for the GT, as there really is no current equivalent for an LX 5.0 anymore. Could you imagine getting a new GT for $20k?!? Ford couldn't build them fast enough.

So if the new car retails for around $26k; where does the price difference come from?
+75 hp
aluminum block and heads
stonger tranny
rigid chassis
ULEV II emmisions compliance
ABS
traction control
Passenger air bag
better build quality (although that remains to be seen)
17" wheels
4 wheel disc brakes

That's just off the top of my head. IMO, $26k sounds damn good.

In 2000, my brother got his GT in Houston marked down to 18,999 plus TT&L. Right now in Houston, every Sunday, there are dealership ads in the paper for GT's ranging from 19,999 to 22,999. Excellent deal almost 4 years later than he bought his GT. Same will happen with the new one once the new wears off. They will discount them and at times offer factory rebates.
As for inflation and salary increases, check the average union worker working for Ford. I'll bet their salaries have kept up pretty well, and that is one of the reasons cars have gone up. Back in the early 70's, the top wages for refinery operators was less than 5 an hour. Now the top wages are pushing 30 dollars an hour. That is one of the reason fuel prices are so much higher than in the 70's. Even so, gas has been around the same price for about 5 years. It goes up for a while and comes down for a while.A nice house cost around 28 dollars a square foot to build about 12 years ago, now about 70 a foot. Construction workers salaries, the skilled ones, have increased to reflect this. Welders, pipefitters, carpenters, etcc.. have seen increases in their salaries. Point is that skilled workers salaries have kept up pretty well. Minimum wage is just that, minimum wage. Unskilled labor around my area make around 8 to 10 an hour. What would you expect for unskilled labor. In 1990, my new 5.0 stickered for around 16k and I got it for 13,500. 14 years later a GT stickers for around 25 and if you bargain and stick your ground you can get one for around 20k. Thats not bad for 14 years. You want to talk about how cheap things were in the seventy's, how about technology. We had one of the first VCR's back then and it was big and ugly and cost $800 dollars. Now you can buy DVD players for less than a 100. How about those big ugly bulky mobil phones that were expensive as hell. Now you can buy a multi-function, internet ready camera phone for around 100. I could go on but I'm tired of typing. But for anyone on here to say don't argue with me cause I'm the only one who knows anything about money and inflation is just plain silly.

 

[spanky442]

Well, the cost of cars today are rising quicker to than incomes. Its a fact that more and more people are falling into debt. Not just the cost of cars but also the cost of housing food and other needs. I remember going to the grocery store and $100 dollars would get you a lot of food. It still can if you are one of those that has time to clip coupons and bargain hunt but realistically it is becoming more difficult for people to survive. Originally the Mustang was marketed to be affordable and available to those needing a second car and the main appeal was that it would was sporty and fun. The thunderbird also originally had the goal as well, but when the new one came out it became out of reach for most consumers. We will not be getting good deals on the new Mustang for a few years. Dealers will mark up the price for the first couple years. They did this when the SN95 platform was introduced. So far from what I gathered through the web is that the new GT will start at $25k plus options, taxes etc and what ever the dealer mark will be, you are looking at spending $30K+ for a new GT. Average Joe can't afford that. I could be wrong, these numbers are all stuff I've gathered online in my research. But, I think ford is trying to target the high-end market. The new Ford GT is the perfect example. The car is in the six figure $. I now that improvements cost money, but aluminum is actually cheaper for them now. They buy it in bulk, it is easier to process and they need less of it to produce a product. I hope I am wrong, I love the mustang, I have two a 93 and 97 cobra, and would would love to have a third. I got the 93 for $20k brand new and 97 for $24 brand new. I don't think we will ever be able to touch a new cobra for under $35K ever again. The V-6 is probably more affordable, but who wants one? No offense, there are many V-6 lovers out there who love them, but in my opinion, that is not a true mustang. We have all seen the commercial with Bill Ford about the "throaty V-8 and driving a mustang forever." Thats what its all about.

 

[Omegalock]

It's not substantially more difficult for people to survive it's just that people have gotten their priorities out of whack. I see it every day hell I lived it for 2-3 years before harsh reality slapped me in the face. People want to live the life of a new car a nice apartment and brand name clothing and food but then bitch when they don't have the money.
You can fault car companies for marking up the cost of cars but let's be realistic here it's not the companies it's the consumers that are driving the price.
Let's face it some people are dumb enough to pay MSRP for a car. Some people are dumb enough to mortage out their future on a new car with all the bells and whistles or an apartment in the "ritzy" part of town just to feed their own egos.
The Mustang is still affordable for the average joe IF he is smart. I.E. you either wait the dealers out and buy it after it's been marked down some OR you buy one used OR you buy the entry level car which is what the V6 is.
Sorry to me complaining that the Cobra is too expensive while still expecting it to be insanely powerful comfortable AND good looking is not grasping the full picture. Ford could readily move the Mustang down to a FWD platform stick a v6 in it and call it a day. THAT is what 14-15k dollars gets you in 2004. If you want a tire roasting V8 with RWD, great interior that's a great all around car...then I don't see why 25k is so much to ask. And don't try to harken these cars back to Muscle cars of old because those things were definately low on everything else but flat out speed.

 

[spanky442]

Well, I see your point. You can't find a RWD V-8 for cheap anymore. And that is why all these cars are in trouble. The Mustang outsold the F-body, but Mustang sales are not high and Ford has considered dropping or making it FWD. The only thing saving the Mustang is its image. But if it gets to the point that a Mustang is as much as a Corvette then people will go for the Corvette or something else. Buying used is fine, but if the new don't sell then there will be no used ones. Not to long ago, these cars were attainable for under $30K new. I think the muscle cars of old were ahead of there time. They had all the creature comforts of the day and were attainable for reasonable prices over base models. Today's market is about showing off. People spend well beyond their means and you are right, they do drive up prices. And Ford will market these cars towards the people that will pay top $ for them. Again, I hope not, I am just going by the little info that is out there on the 2005.

 

[Omegalock]

Well you are also factoring in dealer mark up into your equation and that won't last more than 6 months tops on a car that mass produced.
The V8 powered Mustang doesn't sell well you are right BUT that's why the V6 exists to offset some of the cost and those DO sell well. I mean think about it when you have to pay 10k bucks just for the basest of the base econoboxes an extra 15k IMO is not much to ask for especially if it's as well appointed as the Mustang GT looks to be.
The cars that are climbing into the Vette level prices i.e. the future Cobra will likely have Vette performance levels all around or the likely thing is it'll stay at mid 30s and still be a bargin.
Suffice to say there's a big game going on and it's not going to change anytime soon.
I'd much rather the Mustang be kept true to form rather than Ford comprosmising it and trying to keep costs way down to the point it's no longer a Mustang.
In the past V8=standard equipment. In the evolved world of motoring V8 now = optional and optional=money.

 

[spanky442]

I agree with you and I hope that the new Mustang will hold true to it. I am just worried that Ford may have another T-Bird on there hands and ruin the Mustang. Biggest problem with the T-Bird was that it lacked performance and hopefully that is where the mustang will be strong. I think the camaro lost out because it never had the image of the mustang. Camaro came second and was always second even though it was faster, people love mustangs, and hopefully the people that made it what it is will still be able to have one. *Just a side note, you can pick up a newer Camaro SS for cheap. You would think they would be worth more not that they are gone but I found some 2000 up for under $20K.

 

[SVTdriver]

I'm not entirely sure the new t-bird was ever meant to have the same sales volume as the mustang. I never saw much of a marketing campaign for it. You also have to look at it as. It was a toy, not a practical car. 2 seaters in general are usually playthings. Yes a fully load gt may cost $30k. But the reality is you can go on the Ford website and build a 2004 for nearly that. And 30k is nowhere near corvette level pricing. Base price on the corvette is $44.5. Even the Cobra has plenty of room before it hits vette pricing.

 

[spanky442]

Well, the 04 are cheaper but the 2005 is expected to go up in price.

 

[shatner saves]

It's not substantially more difficult for people to survive it's just that people have gotten their priorities out of whack. I see it every day hell I lived it for 2-3 years before harsh reality slapped me in the face. People want to live the life of a new car a nice apartment and brand name clothing and food but then bitch when they don't have the money.
You can fault car companies for marking up the cost of cars but let's be realistic here it's not the companies it's the consumers that are driving the price.
Let's face it some people are dumb enough to pay MSRP for a car. Some people are dumb enough to mortage out their future on a new car with all the bells and whistles or an apartment in the "ritzy" part of town just to feed their own egos.

I agree entirely. There are people out there taking out 5 or 6 year notes on a new car. I'm sorry but if you can't get the thing paid off in less than 3 years, you obviously cannot afford the car. Personally, I won't walk into a dealership unless I can pay cash for what I am looking for. Even if I pay MSRP, I'm still doing better than the guy who talked the dealer down a couple of grand and is financing for 3 years. Based on the projected price of the new car, that should be around spring/summer of '05.

There are people in this world who have genuinely been screwed or have had some stroke of bad luck that devistated them financially. They have my sympathy. There are others that spend too much time keeping up with the Joneses. I personally know a family where both parents work, good paying jobs, benefits out the arse, and they are always having money problems. Why? Because they can't spend the stuff fast enough. I say, live within your means and don't give a f--- about the Joneses. You'll get fewer grey hairs that way.

Enough of the rant.

Has anyone seen actual pricing for the '05? I've seen estimated pricing from a few different sources. Has Ford officially confirmed the base price of the new car? Could it be possible that there will only be a marginal change from the current base GT?

 

[ghettocar]

There are people out there taking out 5 or 6 year notes on a new car. I'm sorry but if you can't get the thing paid off in less than 3 years, you obviously cannot afford the car. Personally, I won't walk into a dealership unless I can pay cash for what I am looking for. Even if I pay MSRP, I'm still doing better than the guy who talked the dealer down a couple of grand and is financing for 3 years.

If I've got $26,000 in cash I can earn a much better return on it than the typical new domestic 0-3.9% interest rate.

If your credit is in order and you qualify for zero financing it makes absolutely no sense to buy a car with cash.