Anyone buying for "collector" status?
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JonJon
Founding Member
REDFIRE 05 GT
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Same thing people thought when the 99 came out, I dont think has much collector status. KBB trade in value for my 99 Cobra Vert was only 12,100.00 it was 32,000.00 new.
livyx95gt
Founding Member
JonJon said:
You can't look at it that way... if you were to do that then the 65 wouldn't be a collectors car now. There were about 3 times as many of the 65's in a year as there are of the 05's or any other current years.
I do agree that this car will probably NOT be collectible... due to the fact that lots of people are going to think these are gonna be collectibles. Compare them to the new Star Wars toys... everyone is saying "well, the originals are collectibles, so then I should keep these new ones in the original package so my Chewbacca is as sweet as the original" It doesn't work when people are thinking ahead like that. The reason the original cars are collectibles is because no one thought they would be.
livyx95gt said:
You have to look at it that way. Most of the cars that have achieved true collector status were limited production runs. No Mustang is ever going to be in this category. If the you look at the original purchase price of a 60's Mustang, factor in adjusted costs for inflation and insurance over all those years, you'll see that they really aren't collectible, just desirable. Look at a mid 60's 12 cylinder ferrari if you want to see a collectible car. Even an XK-E, one of the most beautiful cars ever built, can't touch it in price. Why? There are just a lot more of them around.
Don't believe me? Read Keith Martin's Sports Car Market Newsletter and you'll see auction results of cool older cars that sell for a pittance.
If you buy a Mustang, or almost any other car, do it because you enjoy it and not because you think you'll make money, because you won't.
I thought like that- save it in the garage, etc.- when I first ordered my '05 (not here yet). But as I thought it over, it's a $26K car when the average car out there is about $30K. It's not a $250K Ferrari. And the '05 Mustang should be a great daily driver- especially now that they seem to have fixed every bad habit that Mustangs ever had. Not that I'll drive it in the snow or park it at the airport.
I won't be here in 40 years to find out. So why not drive it and enjoy it?
I won't be here in 40 years to find out. So why not drive it and enjoy it?
Svtpilot
Founding Member
scottie1113 said:
No Mustang is ever going to be collectable?? Regarding 60s Mustangs I don't agree. Your logic of factoring in original cost, inflation , etc maybe correct regarding run of the mill Mustangs, say for example a 1967 289 2bbl Coupe. But if your critirea for collectability is limited production well there have been limited production Mustangs. How about the 65-70 Shelby Mustangs? No good because they are not factory vehicles? Ok how about 69 & 70 BOSS 302 and BOSS 429s? Take a look at the production numbers for 68 428 CobraJet Mustangs very rare.
These are all highly collectable limited run Mustangs. The other thing you have to look at regarding vintage Mustangs is the option list. There are some option combinations that can make a normal Mustang very rare. For example one the rarest Mustangs are 65 -66 Verts with factory air. 1969 Mach Is are anything but rare, but if it is a 428 4spd car it is. So I think your statemnt is too general.
That being said I don't see any modern Mustangs becoming collectable except maybe the 93, 95 and 2000 Cobra Rs (another example of limited production Mustangs)
Someday yes, these cars will be "collectable". At least in the sense that after they're all used up and thrown away, old dudes will want one again and the one guy with a clean one in his garage will be able to sell it to the nostalgic dude for a nice price. Dont believe me? Damn. Nobody ever believes me. I'm so stupid.
As a collector myself, it's a real roll-of-the-dice. If you want to buy a new Mustang and keep the miles low, only drive it in sunny weather, do it because you love the car. It's true, only a rare minority of old "desirable" cars ever get ahead of, and beat the rate of inflation, storage overhead, maintainance (you can't just let it "sit"), INSURANCE, and lost revenue due to unrealized investment potential (the old, "if you had taken that $29 grand and done THIS with it instead, you would have had THAT with zero risk" quandary). Secondly, the word "collectible" OBVIOUSLY has a different meaning to different people. Any object that has an enthusiastic following is "collectible". Whether or not it's a profitable venture has NOTHING to do whether it's collectible. Tons of people collect and covet things that don't give them a bountiful return on their investment. That has little to do with their enthusiasm, and desire to collect more. Such is the story of the Mustang. Very collectible, as the 65-73 Mustangs are the most commonly and most plentifully and most popularly restored vehicles on the face of the earth. No other car in the restoration parts industry eclipses the Mustang. And most of that volume is not Bosses and Shelbys and Machs. It's the vastly more plentiful every-day Mustangs. Much less valuable, but nevertheless, restored in blindingly high numbers due to high levels of enthusiasm and fondness for the marque. But you've got to look at relative costs for vehicles that filled the same market void, back then, and now. People who point at "hey, a '65 Mustang fastback 289 only cost $3,000 bucks well-optioned in '65, and TODAY, a low-mile well-cared for and preserved original would cost... ballpark $27,000. WOW, what an investment!!! 
. Umm, sorry to burst your bubble, but there's two ways to look at this:
1. By the time you factor in all the inflation, insurance, etc.. you actually lost your a$$, and
2. A brand new Mustang GT costs... around $27K decently equipped.
In other words, nobody got ANYWHERE sitting and preserving on those old cars. Now, if it's a Boss or a Shelby or so-on, those folks are looking good, BUT.... only because in the last 1.5-2 years the values in that market have gone crazy. Prior to that, they were just breaking-even as well. So it took them all those years, AND SOME LUCK from a fickle market (remember when classic Ferrari's exploded, and then in a couple years imploded), to actually look at their cars and be financially ahead. In reality, the folks who really make a good investment on these cars is the ones who bought them up when they're 10-15 years old (70's and early 80's), when their values are flat in-the-basement, and then they sat on them another 10-15 years and are mopping up today, IF, the market decided that they've got the hot thing. It's a huge gamble, a lottery, not one I'd recommend with the '05, not even an SVT version. The 65-73 Mustangs were the first of their kind, and they encompassed the era known as the "muscle car era". There's alot of romance and collectibility tied up in the TIMING and the fact that they were the ORIGINALS. The new '05 is made in the spirit of the originals, but hey, there's been plenty of V8 pony cars made between then and now, it's not a revolution. 2005 is not a year that we'll all look back at and say "MAN, remember when that '05 Mustang came out and SHOOK the WORLD??". Nope, the new Mustang is just a damn nice version of a car that's been around for a long time now. It won't repeat what the originals were, because the originals redefined the auto industry. The new ones are just another new model. Have fun with them, keep the miles off and keep it nice and clean so that you can keep it and hand it down to your kids in like-new condition. That is all GREAT stuff. But don't start planning your retirement around it, that's just a total misunderstanding of what collecting for profit really is about. And today's crazy-high market for muscle cars is fogging peoples vision of what reality really is. It may last, it may crash.
. Umm, sorry to burst your bubble, but there's two ways to look at this:1. By the time you factor in all the inflation, insurance, etc.. you actually lost your a$$, and
2. A brand new Mustang GT costs... around $27K decently equipped.
In other words, nobody got ANYWHERE sitting and preserving on those old cars. Now, if it's a Boss or a Shelby or so-on, those folks are looking good, BUT.... only because in the last 1.5-2 years the values in that market have gone crazy. Prior to that, they were just breaking-even as well. So it took them all those years, AND SOME LUCK from a fickle market (remember when classic Ferrari's exploded, and then in a couple years imploded), to actually look at their cars and be financially ahead. In reality, the folks who really make a good investment on these cars is the ones who bought them up when they're 10-15 years old (70's and early 80's), when their values are flat in-the-basement, and then they sat on them another 10-15 years and are mopping up today, IF, the market decided that they've got the hot thing. It's a huge gamble, a lottery, not one I'd recommend with the '05, not even an SVT version. The 65-73 Mustangs were the first of their kind, and they encompassed the era known as the "muscle car era". There's alot of romance and collectibility tied up in the TIMING and the fact that they were the ORIGINALS. The new '05 is made in the spirit of the originals, but hey, there's been plenty of V8 pony cars made between then and now, it's not a revolution. 2005 is not a year that we'll all look back at and say "MAN, remember when that '05 Mustang came out and SHOOK the WORLD??". Nope, the new Mustang is just a damn nice version of a car that's been around for a long time now. It won't repeat what the originals were, because the originals redefined the auto industry. The new ones are just another new model. Have fun with them, keep the miles off and keep it nice and clean so that you can keep it and hand it down to your kids in like-new condition. That is all GREAT stuff. But don't start planning your retirement around it, that's just a total misunderstanding of what collecting for profit really is about. And today's crazy-high market for muscle cars is fogging peoples vision of what reality really is. It may last, it may crash.
Put it this way, a year ago someone sold a black 96' GT on ebay, with less than 100 miles on it, it was garaged, it sold for the same price as a brand new Mach 1.
In 30 years, these cars will be what the cars from the 60's are now.
In 30 years, these cars will be what the cars from the 60's are now.
You can find anomolies anywhere if you look hard enough, but one goofy purchase price does not baseline an entire market. In 1998 my dad bought a 1993 Cobra R with only 92 miles on it for $21K, thousands less than it sold for new. In '96, he bought a '79 Turbo Pace Car with 35 miles on it for $7500, thousands less than it cost new. I know right now where a '90 LX 5.0 5-speed with 60 miles can be had for $13K, just about what it sold for new (and they're having a heck of a time unloading it). As far as well-cared-for, lower-mile one-owner vehicles go, I've got an absolutely flawless triple-black '90 GT convertible that I found at a Fun Ford event for sale this last summer. Literally, this car does not have a dent or scratch from new, and the leather was covered from new, so the interior is flawless. Totally 100% stock and original, 43,000 pampered miles, $6900 bucks. It sold new for $20K. So, $26-28K for a 100 mile '96 GT?? There's a sucker born every day....
I've done some collecting. Don't buy an 05 and wait for it to be a collectable. Buy a good value collectable now and sell it. I had a 73 Mach 1 with ram air that I bought with 48,000 miles on it no rust original but faded paint. I had a $5,000 factory correct paint job put on it, added about $3,000 in factory correct parts with my purchase price of $7500 equals my total investment of $15,500. Had the car for 18 months and sold it for $20,000. If you want to attempt to make money on collectables rather than shoot in the dark and speculate buy a good collectable now its less risky. I've had my 35,000 mile one owner 57 chevy for 5 years now, when I'm ready it will make a nice return.
RICKS said:
I dont think it was so long ago where a 97 rio red GT also sold for like 18k, it can happen, you just never know, theres always someone out there willing to pay that price. But you just cant say that one day it will never be a collectible, because no one can predict the future, hell if we could, im sure people wouldnt have destroyed shelby's and daytona coupes.
I agree with you that these cars shouldnt be held onto as a collector car though.
Ricks:
Aside for being in almost full agreement with you, I would like to add a few thoughts about this topic.
As I see it, the '05's will/should be a car that will hold some value with less depreciaton than many others, but mostly due to the fact there will continue to be market of performance oriented Mustang fans for years to come.
However, this will also only be for cars that remain in new, factory-like condition without modification.
The big difference between the cars of the 60's that became collectible, and the cars of today that might be considered the same in future years, is that very few of the early cars were "mothballed" from day one for that purpose. That is (in part)what made the remaining survivors highly sought after, years after production of those original models ceased. People bought the cars to drive for pleasure, while the country was entering a whole new era with the first baby boomers reaching driving age. Few young men in those days could afford or had thoughts of keeping a new Mustang (or any other new ponycar) under a sheet in a garage, when he could be out crusing the streets.
In a sense, the later market for the early Mustangs as collectibles, was created by the end of this era about 20 years later, which had been started by the introduction of this car that was unprecedented in its time. The hype campaign that Ford so sucessfully marketed in '64, also became part of the legend and remained with the cars as they started to dwindle in numbers as the years went by. Few other cars of the time had that kind of aura around them.
Furthermore, it did appear by the mid 70's, that factory production of "muscle type cars" was gone forever...along with convertibles. This caused a sudden rise in demand for all the hot cars of the 60's. These factors will probably not enter into the future demand for any cars produced today.
For the past 20 years or so, it hasn't been uncommon to hear of people buying cars and putting them into hibernation, waiting for the day they will become "collectible". This started around the time buying baseball cards in boxed sets became all the rage, to make an analogy of sorts. Suddenly, many thought that anything that was once common (but then had become scarce) might again make a great future investment...as collectors started paying incredible premiums for old rookie cards of Mickey Mantle for example. Not only did the number of new "collectors" soar, but the products themselves became manufactured in ever increasing quantities to satisfy this demand. Today, mint unopened boxes of basball cards from the 80's and 90's have relatively little value.
As a result, it is becoming more common to see older model cars at shows with minimal mileage. This is also in part because we all own more vehicles than we did 40 years ago. Where rust was once a common sight on a ten or twenty year old car, it is much less so today. Cars like a Mustang are more like personal toys now, then they were when often used as grocery getters in the 60's and 70's. Performance models of cars like a Mustang (say GT) are likely sold in greater quanties than with the original models, making them more common within the product line.
Personally, in spite of the improvements that have been made in such areas as corrosion protection, materials, and assembly of cars etc...I would be leary of trying to keep any of the cars of today, for the purposes of it becoming a collectible tomorrow. As I see it... cars of today have become too dependant on technology and electronics that the average person will ever be able to maintain, should something go wrong in the future. I foresee great difficulty in obtaining replacement parts of these systems for older vehicles in later years....much like obtaining the emmision control parts of older models today. Buying older used cars now and in the future (on account of this) is something I would consider risky to say the least. Cars become so quickly technologiclly outdated today, (like computers), that it may not be feasible to attempt to hold onto them until they become collectible.
Aside for being in almost full agreement with you, I would like to add a few thoughts about this topic.
As I see it, the '05's will/should be a car that will hold some value with less depreciaton than many others, but mostly due to the fact there will continue to be market of performance oriented Mustang fans for years to come.
However, this will also only be for cars that remain in new, factory-like condition without modification.
The big difference between the cars of the 60's that became collectible, and the cars of today that might be considered the same in future years, is that very few of the early cars were "mothballed" from day one for that purpose. That is (in part)what made the remaining survivors highly sought after, years after production of those original models ceased. People bought the cars to drive for pleasure, while the country was entering a whole new era with the first baby boomers reaching driving age. Few young men in those days could afford or had thoughts of keeping a new Mustang (or any other new ponycar) under a sheet in a garage, when he could be out crusing the streets.
In a sense, the later market for the early Mustangs as collectibles, was created by the end of this era about 20 years later, which had been started by the introduction of this car that was unprecedented in its time. The hype campaign that Ford so sucessfully marketed in '64, also became part of the legend and remained with the cars as they started to dwindle in numbers as the years went by. Few other cars of the time had that kind of aura around them.
Furthermore, it did appear by the mid 70's, that factory production of "muscle type cars" was gone forever...along with convertibles. This caused a sudden rise in demand for all the hot cars of the 60's. These factors will probably not enter into the future demand for any cars produced today.
For the past 20 years or so, it hasn't been uncommon to hear of people buying cars and putting them into hibernation, waiting for the day they will become "collectible". This started around the time buying baseball cards in boxed sets became all the rage, to make an analogy of sorts. Suddenly, many thought that anything that was once common (but then had become scarce) might again make a great future investment...as collectors started paying incredible premiums for old rookie cards of Mickey Mantle for example. Not only did the number of new "collectors" soar, but the products themselves became manufactured in ever increasing quantities to satisfy this demand. Today, mint unopened boxes of basball cards from the 80's and 90's have relatively little value.
As a result, it is becoming more common to see older model cars at shows with minimal mileage. This is also in part because we all own more vehicles than we did 40 years ago. Where rust was once a common sight on a ten or twenty year old car, it is much less so today. Cars like a Mustang are more like personal toys now, then they were when often used as grocery getters in the 60's and 70's. Performance models of cars like a Mustang (say GT) are likely sold in greater quanties than with the original models, making them more common within the product line.
Personally, in spite of the improvements that have been made in such areas as corrosion protection, materials, and assembly of cars etc...I would be leary of trying to keep any of the cars of today, for the purposes of it becoming a collectible tomorrow. As I see it... cars of today have become too dependant on technology and electronics that the average person will ever be able to maintain, should something go wrong in the future. I foresee great difficulty in obtaining replacement parts of these systems for older vehicles in later years....much like obtaining the emmision control parts of older models today. Buying older used cars now and in the future (on account of this) is something I would consider risky to say the least. Cars become so quickly technologiclly outdated today, (like computers), that it may not be feasible to attempt to hold onto them until they become collectible.
collector cars
New cars are not investments. Basic personal transportation is a necessity for most of us. The extent to which a car exceeds basic functions becomes a luxury that depreciates rapidly. An 05 GT purchased today will relieve you of approx. 30 grand with taxes, plates etc. Put the 30k into the S&P 500 which has averaged over a 10% return since WWII for 40years and have $1,357,777.0 at your disposal. Never ever consider cars investments.
New cars are not investments. Basic personal transportation is a necessity for most of us. The extent to which a car exceeds basic functions becomes a luxury that depreciates rapidly. An 05 GT purchased today will relieve you of approx. 30 grand with taxes, plates etc. Put the 30k into the S&P 500 which has averaged over a 10% return since WWII for 40years and have $1,357,777.0 at your disposal. Never ever consider cars investments.
The probability of 2005 Mustangs appreciating in value is somewhere between slim and none.
The reason why 60s muscle cars have shown such great appreciation is that in the early 70s, horsepower dissappeared. Muscle cars were no longer manufactured, which limited their numbers and the cars that were manufactured in the 70s and 80s were no longer like those 60s muscle cars.
So if tomorrow gasoline suddenly hit $20 / gallon and Ford quicly redesigned the Mustang so it could bring out a 4 cylinder diesel hybrid for the 2007 model year and STOPPED making V8s, then your 2005 & 2006 Mustang GTs will appreciate in value.
For the person who pointed out how Shelbys and Bosses have appreciated in value:
TOTAL PRODUCTION #s
Boss 429: about 1,600
1969 Boss 302: 1,628
1970 Boss 302: 7,013
Total of ALL Shelby Mustang GT-350s and GT-500s from 1965 - 1970: 14,368
So a TOTAL of 24,609 of those desirable high performance Mustangs were built between 1965 and 1970.
Over the next 6 years, Ford will build and sell close to 1 MILLION 2005 - 2010 Mustangs of which at least 350,000 of them will be GTs. So the answer is NO 2005 Mustangs will not be collectible and will NOT appreciate in value.
Will Ford make some very limited production models like the 2000 Cobra R. Probably they will. Will those limited edition models that are only available for 1 or 2 years and are produced in #'s less than a few thousand appreciate in value. Probably they will.
That means a total of
The reason why 60s muscle cars have shown such great appreciation is that in the early 70s, horsepower dissappeared. Muscle cars were no longer manufactured, which limited their numbers and the cars that were manufactured in the 70s and 80s were no longer like those 60s muscle cars.
So if tomorrow gasoline suddenly hit $20 / gallon and Ford quicly redesigned the Mustang so it could bring out a 4 cylinder diesel hybrid for the 2007 model year and STOPPED making V8s, then your 2005 & 2006 Mustang GTs will appreciate in value.
For the person who pointed out how Shelbys and Bosses have appreciated in value:
TOTAL PRODUCTION #s
Boss 429: about 1,600
1969 Boss 302: 1,628
1970 Boss 302: 7,013
Total of ALL Shelby Mustang GT-350s and GT-500s from 1965 - 1970: 14,368
So a TOTAL of 24,609 of those desirable high performance Mustangs were built between 1965 and 1970.
Over the next 6 years, Ford will build and sell close to 1 MILLION 2005 - 2010 Mustangs of which at least 350,000 of them will be GTs. So the answer is NO 2005 Mustangs will not be collectible and will NOT appreciate in value.
Will Ford make some very limited production models like the 2000 Cobra R. Probably they will. Will those limited edition models that are only available for 1 or 2 years and are produced in #'s less than a few thousand appreciate in value. Probably they will.
That means a total of
J666Z
New Member
I purchased mine as a shop car. We will be running 90% of the Fun Ford Events Season. It will be going to SEMA, PRI, Turkey Rod Run, Spring Break Nationals, HIN, and lot of other misc, car shows. + I will take it out on weekends if I wish. But it's not goin to be a daily driven car.
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