Car and Driver Review- 05 Stang vs. 05 GTO

[iviustang50h]

You like the coolness factor of having a new Mustang now, but will that feeling still be there when there is a couple hundred thousand of them rolling around? Time will tell.

LOL now you are telling people what they like and don't like and why? Um, no! I have owned GM and Ford (among other manufacturers). I liked the mustang the best. So don't tell me what I like and don't like and why! Get your own opinion!

 

[iviustang50h]

Is the GTO a good performer.....Yes
Is it refined......Yes
Is it a good value for what you get.....Yes
Is the Small Block Chevy a great engine.......Yes
Is the interior great.....Yes

Does all this matter to most people when you package it in an ugly wrapper....No

Someone needs to start a petition to GM to restyle the GTO completely.

You hit it right on the money! 'Nuff said!

 

[iviustang50h]

Everyone seems to make the GTO sales such a negative thing. Comparing the sales of the GTO to the Mustang is just ignorant. You are seriously comparing the sales of a limited production car to a mass produced car that Ford will probably pump out 200K of? of them rolling around?

That's funny Dan because every day I pass a GM dealorship that has at LEAST 20 GTOs sitting out in the front of the lot. So much for limited production huh?

 

[fivepointNO]

I don't want to offend you but I am going to have to call you ignorant. The 05 GT's are only a match for the 04 GTO's, the 05 GTO blows the 05 GT away as far as performance.

What ignorance do you claim? Just because I don't agree with you word for word doesn't mean I'm ignorant, nor that you are not. The '05 GT is a match for the '04 GTO, and then some. It's generally as quick when both are stock, it stops better, it slolams better, it skidpads better. It offers as much as the GTO inside, except in rear seat area. Oh, and it stickers for about seven thousand dollars less(Premium model). A match? Hardly. That's why we're comparing the '05 instead.

And to say that 05 GT's are quicker than 04 GTO's is also ignorant, namely because the real world outside your computer room is telling a different story. While the GT seems to pull great off the line it loses a lot higher up which is where the GTO is winning, and winning before the 1/4th is over.

If only I'd actually said that to begin with. I guess it's my ignorance for not realizing you'd take for granted I meant the '04 GTO wasn't as quick as the '05GT instead of what it meant(the '05GTO), by my use of the words "The same was not said about the '04," just after my note of what C&D said of the '05GTO.

So basically your support for the Mustang boils down to one factor, "gotta have it", I won't call it a BS factor, but it is a preference factor, which you are entitled to.

Of course I'm entitled, and as proven by the masses for years, we all are. That's much of why the Mustang has been around since 1964 and the GTO took a 30yr hiatus. My personal position is more along the lines of "haven't gotta have" the GTO than "gotta have" the Mustang. The general opinion is that one car looks much better than the other. Sales figures prove that sentiment. This is largely what "gotta have" boils down to. It's not about which performs best in every known situtation, or about the stereo or leather seats. It's about feeling great merely gazing at the car.

 

[351CJ]

the 05 GTO blows the 05 GT away as far as performance.

Right now an '05 GTO won't even blow a Yugo away, because you can't take delivery of one.

 

[TomServo92]

Everyone seems to make the GTO sales such a negative thing. Comparing the sales of the GTO to the Mustang is just ignorant.

Yeah, it's so limited production that they have a 167 day inventory stockpiled and they're cutting production by 30% next year. It's amazing to me that someone can shrug off the fact that a limited production, high-performance vehicle can barely sell two-thirds of it's first years production.

BTW, I think most of the GTO owners that post in here are OK but since you come in and start calling people "ignorant", I have one word for you: troll

 

[new22003]

Right now an '05 GTO won't even blow a Yugo away, because you can't take delivery of one.

Its going to take a while to clear the lots of 2004 models. Pontiac has a 150+ day supply of GTO's right now. Below 60 day is a desirable amount for the beginning of the year, below 20 day for the end of the year.

Here is a brand new, 37 mile, 04 gto fully loaded even has the auto with a MSRP of $34,000. The price is now $23,995. When the 05's do start coming out with the 50 horse bump, the 04 should go even cheaper and with many remaining on dealers lots. I dont doubt we will be seeing new 2004 GTO's going for close to $20,000 in feb of 2005. Thats a deal I might even have trouble passing up. Beats buying a fully loaded focus for the same money.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=4511076830&rd=1

Thats a lot of car for a little money though.

 

[GTPDan]

Yeah, it's so limited production that they have a 167 day inventory stockpiled and they're cutting production by 30% next year. It's amazing to me that someone can shrug off the fact that a limited production, high-performance vehicle can barely sell two-thirds of it's first years production.

BTW, I think most of the GTO owners that post in here are OK but since you come in and start calling people "ignorant", I have one word for you: troll

You obviously didnt read my post. There isnt 167 days worth of inventory, not even close. They also didnt cut production of anything. They never made 18K units. They are just changing the maximun number that will be produced based off the number of cars built for 04. Also about the only places you still see a bunch of GTOs on dealer lots is up north. For some strange reason, they sent about 60-70% of the 04s to northern dealerships where most people who drive a performance car only do so during the summer and drive a beater in the winter. Way to go GM They have already said that was a mistake and will be changing allocation for the 05. They will be adjusting the ratio of automatics to manuals too since they made way too many automatics. Oh and BTW, if you are a person who thinks the sales figures mean the Mustang is a better car when they will make 15 times more of them, then yes, you are ignorant.

 

[admdavs]

I believe though that is what we will be seeing with the 07 camaro. A sweet looking, powerful car that has broad appeal and still waxes the stang...

Sheer ignorance on your part GTO-boy. Read any car history- The Mustang, except for one year in its 40-year history, has always outsold the Camaro- towards the end of Camaro's road life in '02- it was outselling the Chevy by an almost 4 to 1 clip- don't take my word for it though- do some research and get educated!!!

 

[TomServo92]

You obviously didnt read my post. There isnt 167 days worth of inventory, not even close. They also didnt cut production of anything. They never made 18K units. They are just changing the maximun number that will be produced based off the number of cars built for 04. Also about the only places you still see a bunch of GTOs on dealer lots is up north. For some strange reason, they sent about 60-70% of the 04s to northern dealerships where most people who drive a performance car only do so during the summer and drive a beater in the winter. Way to go GM They have already said that was a mistake and will be changing allocation for the 05. They will be adjusting the ratio of automatics to manuals too since they made way too many automatics. Oh and BTW, if you are a person who thinks the sales figures mean the Mustang is a better car when they will make 15 times more of them, then yes, you are ignorant.

OK Troll-boy... explain these news stories:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/wheels/articles/1204wheels04autoreport.html

http://www.gulfweeklyworldwide.com/article.asp?Sn=2093&Article=7182

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=8862&vf=2&bg=1&pp=1

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/automotive/stories/MYSA120404.1J.williams.b5326336.html

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11481104%5E2702,00.html

If you read the stories (you can read, can't you?), they all say production has been cut by 30% for 2005. Be sure to play close attention to the last one where it says at the beginning of November there was a 127-day supply on hand. I've since heard that has grown to around 167 days.

BTW, I never said anything about the Mustang being better because it sold more. By putting words in someone elses mouth to try to prove your point indicates just how ignorant you are!

I also never said the GTO is a bad car either. My opinion is quite the contrary actually. I think it's a very nice performance car that suffers from very bland styling and IMHO is a sales failure because of it.

 

[fivepointNO]

You obviously didnt read my post. There isnt 167 days worth of inventory, not even close. They also didnt cut production of anything. They never made 18K units.

I don't know or care how many they've got available on the dealers lots, but the sales are sluggish, at best. They never made 18,000 units, but they were hoping to come close, or that wouldn't have been the initial number they set forward as their goal. I don't know if they've even sold 12K units for the model year. Indications are they'll sell off whatever number they've built though, thanks to things like $24,000 sale prices. But hey, what's 10 thousand less than sticker price as long as someone buys it, right!

They are just changing the maximun number that will be produced based off the number of cars built for 04

No, they're changing the maximum number to be produced based on the number SOLD, not built, for '04. Let's just face it, Pontiac hoped to sell more 2004 GTO's than they sold and have decided to scale back production for 2005 because of that. Instead of making the car more broadly appealing(body style changes or optional engines), GM has decided to add hp with a bigger engine, and make a few other smaller changes. They've made the approach to the GTO more as if it's a Corvette instead of what it is. I believe Corvette sales actually beat it. The reason isn't pricing alone, and certainly not the drivetrain. And according to several of you GTO owners, it's not a lack of handling or passenger volume... This leaves only a few reasons... BODY STYLE topping that list.

 

[GTPDan]

OK Troll-boy... explain these news stories:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/wheels/articles/1204wheels04autoreport.html

http://www.gulfweeklyworldwide.com/article.asp?Sn=2093&Article=7182

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=8862&vf=2&bg=1&pp=1

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/automotive/stories/MYSA120404.1J.williams.b5326336.html

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11481104%5E2702,00.html

If you read the stories (you can read, can't you?), they all say production has been cut by 30% for 2005. Be sure to play close attention to the last one where it says at the beginning of November there was a 127-day supply on hand. I've since heard that has grown to around 167 days.

BTW, I never said anything about the Mustang being better because it sold more. By putting words in someone elses mouth to try to prove your point indicates just how ignorant you are!

I also never said the GTO is a bad car either. My opinion is quite the contrary actually. I think it's a very nice performance car that suffers from very bland styling and IMHO is a sales failure because of it.

And you still arent reading the post. Those articles are basing thier numbers off the assumption that 18 thousand were made for 04. That was the target for the maximum number of units for 04. Nowhere near that many were made so their numbers are wrong. As for the production cut, since they didnt produce 18 thousand what exactly got cut? GM is just saying that they will no longer use 18 thousand as their target maximum but are reducing that number to 12k which is much closer to the actual numbers produced for 04. And I wasnt speaking specifically of you mocking the GTO sales but if have read this whole thread you will see that many have.

 

[TomServo92]

And you still arent reading the post. Those articles are basing thier numbers off the assumption that 18 thousand were made for 04. That was the target for the maximum number of units for 04. Nowhere near that many were made so their numbers are wrong. As for the production cut, since they didnt produce 18 thousand what exactly got cut? GM is just saying that they will no longer use 18 thousand as their target maximum but are reducing that number to 12k which is much closer to the actual numbers produced for 04. And I wasnt speaking specifically of you mocking the GTO sales but if have read this whole thread you will see that many have.

I'll maintain some civility if you will. So, the last article states as of Nov 1, they've sold 9,487 and dealers had 5,900 stockpiled in inventory. That adds up to 15,387. While that's not 18,000, it's very close. The question is this: are the production lines still running? If so, then they're getting very close to the 18,000 production number. If you have a link to state the current production status or one that has numbers that dispute the ones above, please post it.

 

[max2000jp]

Oh and BTW, if you are a person who thinks the sales figures mean the Mustang is a better car when they will make 15 times more of them, then yes, you are ignorant.

Guess I am ignorant....Looking at it from a sales standpoint, yes the GT is better. The main goal of a company is to make a profit. In general terms, the more cars sold the more profits for the company. GM introduced a watered down product IMO, which is why it isn't selling to their expectations

 

[fivepointNO]

As for the production cut, since they didnt produce 18 thousand what exactly got cut? GM is just saying that they will no longer use 18 thousand as their target maximum but are reducing that number to 12k which is much closer to the actual numbers produced for 04.

An attorney might now add, "asked and answered!" GM is cutting their own expectations by 1/3rd based on lacklustre sales. There is NO other reason to do it. If they've made over 12K for '04, and cut max production to 12K for '05, it's certainly not because they expect a rise in sales. It's more likely due to profit loss and slow sales of the model.

You can "see it" any way you like, but the fact is, GM has lowered the amount of GTO's they plan to produce for the US market in 2005.

 

[new22003]

What is wrong with these GTO people? Why come here and troll a mustang message board where people admittedly have a bias, trying to justify a car that was a failure by most of the public’s measure. I really am beginning to think that not enough GTO’s were sold for you guys to even talk on your own message board.

Why are you guys having such a problem accepting the facts of the 2004 GTO?

It was a styling and sales failure by anyone’s standards in the industry.
GM has admitted the GTO didn’t live up to expectations.
Gm has admitted they have sold far fewer GTO’s than they wanted to.
Every Magazine has said the GTO didn’t live up to expectations.
Every publication, even GM ones, will admit the failures of the GTO.

It’s a bit sad to point out that the GTO does compare to the mustang because of a $10,000 factory incentive/discount.

My god, in what world is that a plus? Do you not realize how much the car will depreciate when the 50 horse+ 2005 model comes out or when they finally do restyle the car, if it lives that long? Doesn’t this say something to you? A limited production sports car with a legendary history that doesn’t sell out even with a $10,000 discount speaks loud and clear to EVERYONE but you I guess.

Its fine to have a bias but stating the the 04 GTO is acceptable is like a mustang fan trying to defend the Mustang II, most objective people are smart enough to not even try.

You guys need to quit trying to justify the car and pressure GM to change it. Otherwise you will not have ANY GTO to talk about and that will be a loss for everyone. Slow sales and bad press and disliked styling on a low production sports car spell death for any model at any car company.

 

[tmac4468]

Yeah, there's nothing like the thrill of owning another GM marketing failure!

Seriously, I understand what you're saying but you underestimate Mustang owners. After all, the limited edition Mustangs like the Mach 1 and Cobra sell very well because they are more unique and rare than the GT.

That is pretty funny - given that the Machs had 3500 rebates on them at the end of the run to move them. I don't own either car, but have driven the GT and the 04 GTO. I would have to say they are a wash performance wise, but the looks of the mustang are great - remind me of my '68!. I do think the GTO interior is much nicer. If I were to buy this weekend I think I would end up with a GTO because right now, it is the "Bang for the Buck" winner for me due to the low prices. They are advertising them for 25k right now?! That is alot of car for that price. The one thing that has always bothered me about the GT's has been the rear seat space (I don't expect it to be big, but come on) When they announced the longer wheel base, I thought they had finally figured it out. Turns out the rear leg room is better...but the headroom is worse!

 

[TomServo92]

That is pretty funny - given that the Machs had 3500 rebates on them at the end of the run to move them.

Let's consider this for moment and put it into perspective. The Mach 1 was riding on 20+ year old chassis that should have been retired a long time ago and just over the horizon was the all new 2005 Mustang on a much more modern chassis with the promise of better performance, better build quality, and very cool looks. Do I need to explain why the '04 Mach needed incentives or can you piece it together yourself? The GTO is a completely different story. It has a modern chassis, a proven high-peformance engine, better build quality than the standard GM fare and stills needs incentives to sell. I stand by my original statement.

EDIT: One more thing...back in Dec '03/Jan '04 when I was car shopping, I decided to look at the '04 Mach 1 since I could get a deal on one. I found one Mach 1 within a 100 miles of where I live. I just did an inventory search for 2004 GTOs and found 25 within 100 miles.

 

[new22003]

A first year Body style with a $10,000 discount or
A last year model with a $3500 discount.

HMMMM

 

[iviustang50h]

The GTO has a nice engine and a nice interior (debatable among some). Other than that, the car is UGLY as sin itself! I loved the old GTO, but the new one looks like a cavaprix (cavalier/grand prix). So go somewhere else and talk about your ugly friggen GTO!