AODE and locked out timing

[HISSIN50]

Hello,

Do any of you AODE guys run locked out timing? Does anyone know how much timing is pulled during shifts?

I get some detonation with 10* timing (sensors all cleaned and within calibration, etc. I am not stupid. ok, ok, not super stupid. ). For fun, I ran base timing (SPOUT out) at 6* and plugged the SPOUT in. as soon as the SPOUT went in, base timing went to 20*. with slight throttle input (raising the revs several hundred RPM), the timing goes to 30*+.

People have said not to run locked out with an automatic, but other than not knowing how much timing is pulled during shifts (to save driveline/trans shock), I dont see any huge reason not to run locked-out. But I dont know how much timing is pulled or what differences there are otherwise. I thought some of the gurus and/or guys who have handhelds might know.

I did run it at 25* locked and it shifted the same as always (it has a mild shift kit). i tend to lift a little at shifts anyhow (or lift to get it to shift - otherwise it will tach up a good bit).

Anyhow, I was hoping to get some feedback on the harm in locked-out timing (Oink, RC, et al).
Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts.

 

[Swarzkopf]

Good question. I'm real interested in the responses here.

 

[KingDiamond]

Only the T5 computer retarded the timing on shifts from what I have read on this board.

 

[HISSIN50]

actually, i think the automatics really pull a lot of timing compared to sticks. i just dont know how much.

 

[final5-0]

actually, i think the automatics really pull a lot of timing compared to sticks. i just dont know how much.

I don't know if the auto pcm pulls spark with the tip in

You might find your answer with a search here

http://tweecer.oplnk.net/

Later
Grady

 

[bjl95mustang]

I tried the locked out timing with my auto. It didnt feel very good and it drove pretty bad. I think it might work on th old aod trannys becuase hey use vacuume. The aode is electronic and it shifted pretty bad when the the spout was out. The eec does pull out timing in the shifts and the only right way around it is either an extender, tweecer, or a chip.

 

[HISSIN50]

Thanks guys. I dont know if there is a tip in, per se, with an auto. it does pull a fair amount of timing for the shifts (per a couple articles i read [written by folks whom i decently trust]). with the timing being pulled for shifts, i dont know if it has tip-in retard or that it is needed (it would be redundant the way i see it).

I have been meaning to read the TwEECer and tuning forums to see if i can understand any of it. Thanks for the linkie Grady.

and BJL, thank you for posting your thoughts on how it drove locked out (I appreciate people posting thoughts like you did - in a search, i could find zilch). I actually preferred it locked out (i am a weirdo though. ). I am just worried about drivetrain (read trans) shock. im still playing with a couple ideas and settings.

Thanks again guys - I appreciate your thoughts and feedback.

 

[mo_dingo]

Once you reconnect the spout, the timing will fluctuate, that is normal.

I wouldn't run a static timing. You should figure out what is causing the problem.

Check your fuel pressure (w/ and w/o vacuum) and your vacuum at idle for starters. What about a basic tune-up?
Scott

 

[HISSIN50]

Scott, all that is covered. the issue is that the trans will lug around at 1300- 1500 rpm and i dont want to stand on it to get it to shift up (once i hit 2K rpm, it is fine). I cant stand manually shifting automatics.

yeah, timing is fine - i was referencing the timing comments around how much advance the puter put in, vs what i was running locked out. I dont see how i would cause much strain on the motor, being it that i have 25* total timing (SPOUT in) by 1300 RPM.

im gonna try a few more things and might play with octane.

please keep ideas and comments coming.

 

[WhiteDevil]

Unless you are a blower car and just locking it out until you get a tune i wouldnt do it. I mean the GT comp only runs 25 degrees timing which is pitiful. If you are pinging from that then you need to look elseware for your real problem

 

[final5-0]

Thanks guys. I dont know if there is a tip in, per se, with an auto. it does pull a fair amount of timing for the shifts (per a couple articles i read [written by folks whom i decently trust]). with the timing being pulled for shifts, i dont know if it has tip-in retard or that it is needed (it would be redundant the way i see it).

I have been meaning to read the TwEECer and tuning forums to see if i can understand any of it. Thanks for the linkie Grady.

and BJL, thank you for posting your thoughts on how it drove locked out (I appreciate people posting thoughts like you did - in a search, i could find zilch). I actually preferred it locked out (i am a weirdo though. ). I am just worried about drivetrain (read trans) shock. im still playing with a couple ideas and settings.

Thanks again guys - I appreciate your thoughts and feedback.

Well I thought someone with an auto trans would confirm if the tip in spark retard was in effect but I guess nobody can help.

Just got back from the Tweecer sales site and dl'ed a U4P0 bin file which was listed as an auto file and threw it in my pc.

Sure enough I saw the tip in retard scalar was present and the value was 5*.

So There You Have It

Later
Grady

 

[HISSIN50]

Thank you Grady.

as for some of the tune-up posts, I appreciate the advice to do a tune-up and what-not. I have been wrenching for some time and like to think myself pretty savvy. that stuff has all long since been addressed (if one knows me or reads my posts, I am a fan of keeping things in decent tune and checking sensor calibration). so (as far as i know) there is not an issue with the state of tune involving wear-items. it is with the trans wanting to lug around at 1300-1500 RPM and ping. now once it is pinging and lugging further, i dont want to stand on it to kick it up. said another way, if it was a stick, i would never have needed to make this thread - we dont drive our 5 speeds around at 1300 RPM in 4th or 5th gear. Again, once at 2K rpm in any gear, i have no issues anywhere and it rips pretty good.

So that was why i phrased my original post the way I did. I was hoping to get some feedback from folks who had been in similar situations (with all the complaining there is with the AODE's, I would have thought that more than a couple folks had tried locking timing). We cant all afford tuners.

also, i will assume the 5 Spd's must not add as much timing as autos do (or i have an issue with timing advance). Whitedevil posted about GT puters running 25* timing (I am not sure exactly what he means, but assume that he means total timing is 25*. correct or wrong?). I have 20* of additional advance (over SPOUT out setting) within a few hundred RPM off idle and if i tried to extrapolate the stock balancer etchings, i would be near 40* total timing by 2000-2500 RPM (no handheld tach hooked up while goosing it and checking with the light).

the thing is that the fox AOD's are basically the same internals as AODE's, right? they had no timing adjustment while shifting (how could they. [rhetorical question]). so i assume the spark retard while shifting is to preserve the trans and soften the shifts for new car buyers - implemented by the SN95 intro (just like tip in for 5 spds [and autos as Grady kindly found out]). my fox has no such thing. basically the same T5 trans (in fact, your are stronger).

So I am thinking aloud here for anyone to agree or debate with my thoughts and line of thinking. like i said, i have a couple tricks up my sleeve that i will try.

I am gonna go see if i can figure out if anything should have been done with the puter or anything else after the 3.55's were installed (stock was 2.73's). I know it matters not (sans a speedo gear) on foxes, but this puter stuff makes smoke come out my ears (another reason I really appreciate your input Grady and everyone else!). I am wondering if something should have been done to the puter to let it know that the 3.55's are there instead of 2.73's). thoughts?

Thanks for listening.

 

[final5-0]

Thank you Grady.

as for some of the tune-up posts, I appreciate the advice to do a tune-up and what-not. I have been wrenching for some time and like to think myself pretty savvy. that stuff has all long since been addressed (if one knows me or reads my posts, I am a fan of keeping things in decent tune and checking sensor calibration). so (as far as i know) there is not an issue with the state of tune involving wear-items. it is with the trans wanting to lug around at 1300-1500 RPM and ping. now once it is pinging and lugging further, i dont want to stand on it to kick it up. said another way, if it was a stick, i would never have needed to make this thread - we dont drive our 5 speeds around at 1300 RPM in 4th or 5th gear. Again, once at 2K rpm in any gear, i have no issues anywhere and it rips pretty good.

So that was why i phrased my original post the way I did. I was hoping to get some feedback from folks who had been in similar situations (with all the complaining there is with the AODE's, I would have thought that more than a couple folks had tried locking timing). We cant all afford tuners.

also, i will assume the 5 Spd's must not add as much timing as autos do (or i have an issue with timing advance). Whitedevil posted about GT puters running 25* timing (I am not sure exactly what he means, but assume that he means total timing is 25*. correct or wrong?). I have 20* of additional advance (over SPOUT out setting) within a few hundred RPM off idle and if i tried to extrapolate the stock balancer etchings, i would be near 40* total timing by 2000-2500 RPM (no handheld tach hooked up while goosing it and checking with the light).

the thing is that the fox AOD's are basically the same internals as AODE's, right? they had no timing adjustment while shifting (how could they. [rhetorical question]). so i assume the spark retard while shifting is to preserve the trans and soften the shifts for new car buyers - implemented by the SN95 intro (just like tip in for 5 spds [and autos as Grady kindly found out]). my fox has no such thing. basically the same T5 trans (in fact, your are stronger).

So I am thinking aloud here for anyone to agree or debate with my thoughts and line of thinking. like i said, i have a couple tricks up my sleeve that i will try.

I am gonna go see if i can figure out if anything should have been done with the puter or anything else after the 3.55's were installed (stock was 2.73's). I know it matters not (sans a speedo gear) on foxes, but this puter stuff makes smoke come out my ears (another reason I really appreciate your input Grady and everyone else!). I am wondering if something should have been done to the puter to let it know that the 3.55's are there instead of 2.73's). thoughts?

Thanks for listening.

Gotta be somewhere shortly but I'll try to answer all your Q's in this post tonight or next day.

Are you aware that you can dl the Tweecer program and look at or compare the various pcm configuration files. http://www.tweecer.com/

This would give you an idea of what that little silver box is doing which to me, it sounds like thats the kind of info you want to know.

The pcm can add about 15* give or take a few and you add to that value your dizzy value for the total advance.

The rate of total advance on the stock cal file just absolutely SUCKS

Later
Grady

 

[final5-0]

Thank you Grady.

as for some of the tune-up posts, I appreciate the advice to do a tune-up and what-not. I have been wrenching for some time and like to think myself pretty savvy. that stuff has all long since been addressed (if one knows me or reads my posts, I am a fan of keeping things in decent tune and checking sensor calibration). so (as far as i know) there is not an issue with the state of tune involving wear-items. it is with the trans wanting to lug around at 1300-1500 RPM and ping. now once it is pinging and lugging further, i dont want to stand on it to kick it up. said another way, if it was a stick, i would never have needed to make this thread - we dont drive our 5 speeds around at 1300 RPM in 4th or 5th gear. Again, once at 2K rpm in any gear, i have no issues anywhere and it rips pretty good.

From 1100 to 1500rpm depending on the amount of load your at, the spark could be in the range of 19 to 34* based on the base spark table of the u4p0 file. You have to add your dizzy spark value that is above 10* to that btw, cause the pcm is based on using the stock 10* value. The thing about ping is, once it occurs, it takes more retard to kill it at that point in time than the amount of spark reduction you would have used to prevent it in the first place. That info comes form several things I've read over the years from peeps who are way smarter than me, lol. Just passing it your way!

This is one of those things that makes it nice to have a tuner cause you can + or - spark value at various rpm's and load's. With the dizzy twist thing its an all or none kind of thing.

So that was why i phrased my original post the way I did. I was hoping to get some feedback from folks who had been in similar situations (with all the complaining there is with the AODE's, I would have thought that more than a couple folks had tried locking timing). We cant all afford tuners.

I just don't have much knowledge about auto's. The only and last auto I had was a C4 in a 66 weekend warrior Stang with stall, shift kit, yada, yada, yada, built buy a guy who really knew his stuff. It worked great and all (pulled the wheels up a good bit at the strip) but I just didn't feel like I was driving the car cause all I did going down the strip was stab and steer, lol.

also, i will assume the 5 Spd's must not add as much timing as autos do (or i have an issue with timing advance).

Guess what??? ................... I found out something that suprised me!!!

I compared the GT-t5 t4m0 file to the GT-auto u4p0 file and the base spark tables had the exact same values. I would have thought along the same lines as you about the auto trans spark values.

Whitedevil posted about GT puters running 25* timing (I am not sure exactly what he means, but assume that he means total timing is 25*. correct or wrong?).

Answer in above post.

btw...... I've talked to John on several occasions over the phone and he's pretty muchley (is that a word? lol) got his stuff together IMHO about these pcm's.

I have 20* of additional advance (over SPOUT out setting) within a few hundred RPM off idle and if i tried to extrapolate the stock balancer etchings, i would be near 40* total timing by 2000-2500 RPM (no handheld tach hooked up while goosing it and checking with the light).

Are you saying you got your spark set to 20* with spout out at idle? If so, I would suggest you back it off a good bit and creep up on your final value by a couple of degrees at a time and test and repeat until you hear the ping thing and back off by a couple for your final value.

the thing is that the fox AOD's are basically the same internals as AODE's, right? they had no timing adjustment while shifting (how could they. [rhetorical question]). so i assume the spark retard while shifting is to preserve the trans and soften the shifts for new car buyers - implemented by the SN95 intro (just like tip in for 5 spds [and autos as Grady kindly found out]). my fox has no such thing. basically the same T5 trans (in fact, your are stronger).

So I am thinking aloud here for anyone to agree or debate with my thoughts and line of thinking. like i said, i have a couple tricks up my sleeve that i will try.

I am gonna go see if i can figure out if anything should have been done with the puter or anything else after the 3.55's were installed (stock was 2.73's). I know it matters not (sans a speedo gear) on foxes, but this puter stuff makes smoke come out my ears (another reason I really appreciate your input Grady and everyone else!).

I got nuthin to say about this stuff

I am wondering if something should have been done to the puter to let it know that the 3.55's are there instead of 2.73's). thoughts?

Thanks for listening.

As far as I know, there is nowhere in the cal file where you tell the pcm what gear ratio you use.

Later
Grady

 

[HISSIN50]

From 1100 to 1500rpm depending on the amount of load your at, the spark could be in the range of 19 to 34* based on the base spark table of the u4p0 file. You have to add your dizzy spark value that is above 10* to that btw, cause the pcm is based on using the stock 10* value. The thing about ping is, once it occurs, it takes more retard to kill it at that point in time than the amount of spark reduction you would have used to prevent it in the first place. That info comes form several things I've read over the years from peeps who are way smarter than me, lol. Just passing it your way! Grady

This is one of those things that makes it nice to have a tuner cause you can + or - spark value at various rpm's and load's. With the dizzy twist thing its an all or none kind of thing.

i hear ya all the way brother. I have no idea how those tuning dealies work (i know how to swap jets and advance weights like a champ though ). the horrible spark and fuel tables are a good deal of the problem with the 94-95 puters, for most folks it seems. i would LOVE to be like you and adjust all that (and get the fans in tune with the thermostat). you 5 speed guys complain, but toss an auto in the mix and the driver really has no control unless he wants to start manually shifting. not cool.

I just don't have much knowledge about auto's. The only and last auto I had was a C4 in a 66 weekend warrior Stang with stall, shift kit, yada, yada, yada, built buy a guy who really knew his stuff. It worked great and all (pulled the wheels up a good bit at the strip) but I just didn't feel like I was driving the car cause all I did going down the strip was stab and steer, lol.



Guess what??? ................... I found out something that suprised me!!!

I compared the GT-t5 t4m0 file to the GT-auto u4p0 file and the base spark tables had the exact same values. I would have thought along the same lines as you about the auto trans spark values.

btw...... I've talked to John on several occasions over the phone and he's pretty muchley (is that a word? lol) got his stuff together IMHO about these pcm's.

Very interesting! (BTW, I am sorry, but I dont know who John is. I just dont know you guys as well as the fox guys yet ). If it was in reference to something I said, apologies. I have been fighting a migraine for two days and cant spit out a clear thought and am irritated with the pounding between my ears (and I am usually fairly hard to follow as it is).

Are you saying you got your spark set to 20* with spout out at idle? If so, I would suggest you back it off a good bit and creep up on your final value by a couple of degrees at a time and test and repeat until you hear the ping thing and back off by a couple for your final value.

Sorry for confusion. run down: the car was set at 10* SPOUT out, but run with SPOUT in (non-locked timing). ping city by 180*. i backed timing down to 8* and then 6* (SPOUT out to set it, but run with the SPOUT installed). i am actually running it at the latter (6*) right now. getting ping and running hot (either the fuel and timing curves encourage this, or it goes back to the first point you made, which i had known about and agree with. detonation is like a rolling snowball with regard to heat it creates, which creates more detonation). and when i set the timing to 6* and installed the SPOUT, the base timing immediately shot from 6* to 20* at idle (simply from computer advance at idle; no other changes). when i revved it to 1300-1400 rpm, timing went from 20* to right off the balancer (extrapolating, it looked to have been around real high 30's to 40*). so with static timing set at 6*, as soon as the puter got its input, timing at idle went to 20* with installing the SPOUT, to 40* within a few hundred RPM over idle. i guess that is not too unusual, but it had struck me as a lot of timing (i tried to do it in such a way that EGR was not engaging, as that adds a ton of timing, but i have no way of knowing for sure if it engaged).

when i ran locked-out timing, i set the timing at 25* and put the SPOUT connector in the glovebox. that is the best that it has run. no pinging, so it ran cooler, etc etc. it was more responsive (i almost swear the converter acts different with timing locked - something with the lock up. it could just be a difference in driving though - when it's pinging, i give myself a headache feathering the pedal).

I got nuthin to say about this stuff


As far as I know, there is nowhere in the cal file where you tell the pcm what gear ratio you use.

I am not sure how the puter works with regard to shift points. on some cars (but i cant remember what forum i was reading for which car), if gears are added to a puter controlled auto, something has to be done since the car's actual speed down the road is less than it was for given engine speeds and DS rotations (when it had original [numerically lower] gears). i need to read (have not yet due to headache).


Thanks very much again Grady. I know I am not gonna get magic solutions, but getting to know some of the intracies of how the puter works is wonderful. your time and knowledge are very much appreciated! (if i look at tuning programming and tables, it does not mean much to me). i'm eager to try some shadetree stuff, if the bean allows it. Thanks again bud!