Junkyard 351c's or w's??

mnsports said:
How about you show us these results you are talking about? You are right when you say "it depends on what you want to do" but that has nothing to do with you saying a 347 is going to walk all over a 351 because it's a lighter rotating mass, that's rubish. It's plane and simple a bigger Displacment motor will make more HP & TQ. We are waiting to see your results...please post them.


Give Jay Allen a call....he worked at a place where i believe a kid came in with a 351w crate motor from Ford that had blown up.....they scraped together a 347 with the same top end and it went faster.


And all you guys talking about you have a lighter assembly than a stock 302...mind telling us what you have involved money wise? I NEVER said you cant build a 408 to go fast but everyone doesnt have that money.

You guys deny the idea...and NONE of you actually have tested it. Now thats comedy to me. Its funny that all of you come back at me with the same question..."where are your results" because obviously you have none. Make more torque? Sure. But guess what? The 1/4 mile IS NOT done on the dyno...and its NOT done in your minds where some of you are having problems imagining more weight slowing you down. Sure if you go through and get all lightweight components its gonna be lighter...with that comes money.
 
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educate me on clevelands

I have always wandered, in the 351-c 4v, does this mean that they have dual intake and exhaust ports like the DOHC cobra, or that the carburator has 4 barrels????? and if it is the dual ports per cylinder, how does that run off pushrods and one cam???
 
1994Vib.RedGT said:
I have always wandered, in the 351-c 4v, does this mean that they have dual intake and exhaust ports like the DOHC cobra, or that the carburator has 4 barrels????? and if it is the dual ports per cylinder, how does that run off pushrods and one cam???

4V when reference to the Cleveland means 4 Venturi or 4 barrel carb. You could buy either 2V or 4V (2 or 4 barrel) versions of the engine.

The 4V heads have truely cavernous ports. You could loose a small child in those ports. They all have one intake and one exhaust valve.

Basically the 4V Cleveland heads are the ancestors of todays NASCAR race heads. They flow wicked numbers out of the box without porting and Ford solt them right from the factory in hi-po cars.
 
nmcgrawj said:
..... Make more torque? Sure. But guess what? The 1/4 mile IS NOT done on the dyno.....

Ummmm.... a drag race is won and and lost in the first 60 feet if the cars are evenly matched other wise. Torque and using it effcently gets you moving. Without torque, horsepower means absolutely nothing.

Torque is a measure of how much power an engine can make. And by definition, power is not horsepower.

Horsepower is a measure of how fast said engine applies that power.
 
tjm73 said:
4V when reference to the Cleveland means 4 Venturi or 4 barrel carb. You could buy either 2V or 4V (2 or 4 barrel) versions of the engine.

The 4V heads have truely cavernous ports. You could loose a small child in those ports. They all have one intake and one exhaust valve.

Basically the 4V Cleveland heads are the ancestors of todays NASCAR race heads. They flow wicked numbers out of the box without porting and Ford solt them right from the factory in hi-po cars.


Interesting...i always kinda wondered about those engines too.

tjm73 said:
Ummmm.... a drag race is won and and lost in the first 60 feet if the cars are evenly matched other wise. Torque and using it effcently gets you moving. Without torque, horsepower means absolutely nothing.

Torque is a measure of how much power an engine can make. And by definition, power is not horsepower.

Horsepower is a measure of how fast said engine applies that power.

It might be me...but arent they a function of eachother? So without horsepower...there is no torque. But i understand what you are trying to say...all i was saying is that it doesnt matter how the car performs on the dyno. What matters is how the car gets down the track.
 
nmcgrawj said:
Unless you stroke that 351...which u mentioned....its gonna get outrun by the 347. I was told with the same parts...the 347 will even outrun the 408. Ofcourse if u upgrade the h/c/i for the 408 its a different story.

I just didnt know if u planned on doing a h/c/i now...and then again for the stroked 408. Just remember that all that extra rotating mass will slow that thing down and it wont rev nearly as quick as a 347.

nmcgrawj said:
Give Jay Allen a call....he worked at a place where i believe a kid came in with a 351w crate motor from Ford that had blown up.....they scraped together a 347 with the same top end and it went faster.
And all you guys talking about you have a lighter assembly than a stock 302...mind telling us what you have involved money wise? I NEVER said you cant build a 408 to go fast but everyone doesnt have that money.

You are the one that came out with the statement about a 347 outrunning a 351 because of the lighter rotating mass and you "believe" but are not certain that it happened and you tell us to backup what we are saying, but then tell us to call Jay Allen, to backup your clam? Wow......now it's a money thing....Dude it's very simple. Take a stock 351W put it next to a 302, the 351W makes more HP & TQ....now put $1,500 or more into a stroker assembly & machining for the 302 to turn it into a 347...it has just cost you more to get a motor that will not make as much HP as the 351W plus you have just hurt your Rod -To- Stroke Ratio in stroker motor. The purpose of Stroking a motor is to get more CC's and there are a ton of ways to do it with a ton of different components. Most people stroke their 302’s so they don’t have to do the 351W swap and that is easier for them but your statement about rotating mass is crazy and the cost......well, a stroker kit cost more then a stock 351W block and rotating mass. One more thing your going to have to buy a H/C/I for the 347 and you had better believe I will be buying a H/C/I for my 351W.

Here is some good reading and you don’t have to call someone... :D

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/18818/index3.html

http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/rod-ratio/

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/96198/index7.html
 
mnsports said:
You are the one that came out with the statement about a 347 outrunning a 351 because of the lighter rotating mass and you "believe" but are not certain that it happened and you tell us to backup what we are saying, but then tell us to call Jay Allen, to backup your clam? Wow......now it's a money thing....Dude it's very simple. Take a stock 351W put it next to a 302, the 351W makes more HP & TQ....now put $1,500 or more into a stroker assembly & machining for the 302 to turn it into a 347...it has just cost you more to get a motor that will not make as much HP as the 351W plus you have just hurt your Rod -To- Stroke Ratio in stroker motor. The purpose of Stroking a motor is to get more CC's and there are a ton of ways to do it with a ton of different components. Most people stroke their 302’s so they don’t have to do the 351W swap and that is easier for them but your statement about rotating mass is crazy and the cost......well, a stroker kit cost more then a stock 351W block and rotating mass. One more thing your going to have to buy a H/C/I for the 347 and you had better believe I will be buying a H/C/I for my 351W.

Here is some good reading and you don’t have to call someone... :D

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/18818/index3.html

http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/rod-ratio/

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/96198/index7.html



First off, i didnt record what Jay Allen said to me so thats why i said "believe" about the story. Facts are facts man. If the 351 over there that they had went faster...it went faster. Its PLAIN and simple. How a 351 makes more power than a 347 is beyond me.

The one thing though when u stroke the 302 to get a 347, you have a brand new motor basically. A stock 351w out of a junkyard will be old...so renew it and it will cost almost as much. Stroke it and build it with the right parts and you will make insane power.

A 351w (not stroked) and a 347 with the same top end...the 347 will out run it. If you dont believe in lighter rotating mass...then why do guys get aluminum flywheels? Lightweight balancers? Hmmm.....

And Rod -To- Stroke Ratio IS GARBAGE IMO. What proof do you have of it affecting a PROPERLY built motor? So, you say thats a bad thing huh? Well tell me why 300,000 mile Honda motors have a WORSE Rod -To- Stroke Ratio than a 347? Maybe Rod -To- Stroke Ratio isnt all what its hyped up to be. Rod -To- Stroke Ratio is something that companys like DSS use to manipulate people into buying 331's.


Im just trying to relay the lesson i was taught, i know people dont accept stuff easily, but just try to have an open mind about it until its proven wrong. You guys say "its crazy" ...blah blah blah...but where have u seen it proven wrong? What makes you "believe" that its so crazy? All i asked for was one example where you saw the two run with the same combo and the 351w beat it.
 
Uh, cost to power.

$1800 to put in the 351w. I could have done it cheaper but wanted to get a 7qt pan at the same time. The cheapest 347 stroker from CHP is listed at $1999. Pretty much a wash.

Rotating mass is not going to make that big of a difference for a street car. On the track maybe, if it is driven right, and by right I mean that the lower mass engine will have to be revved higher. This has durability issues. An engine that is revved higher will need to be rebuilt more often.
My choice was obvious from my sig. Sooner or later you realize that you will always be looking for more power. For example I once thought that the ultimate combo was a cobra intake and 24lb inj on a 302. That got old quick. I now purchase parts that are upgradable because in the long run it will be cheaper.
 
nmcgrawj said:
First off, i didnt record what Jay Allen said to me so thats why i said "believe" about the story. Facts are facts man. If the 351 over there that they had went faster...it went faster. Its PLAIN and simple. How a 351 makes more power than a 347 is beyond me.

The one thing though when u stroke the 302 to get a 347, you have a brand new motor basically. A stock 351w out of a junkyard will be old...so renew it and it will cost almost as much. Stroke it and build it with the right parts and you will make insane power.

A 351w (not stroked) and a 347 with the same top end...the 347 will out run it. If you dont believe in lighter rotating mass...then why do guys get aluminum flywheels? Lightweight balancers? Hmmm.....

And Rod -To- Stroke Ratio IS GARBAGE IMO. What proof do you have of it affecting a PROPERLY built motor? So, you say thats a bad thing huh? Well tell me why 300,000 mile Honda motors have a WORSE Rod -To- Stroke Ratio than a 347? Maybe Rod -To- Stroke Ratio isnt all what its hyped up to be. Rod -To- Stroke Ratio is something that companys like DSS use to manipulate people into buying 331's.


Im just trying to relay the lesson i was taught, i know people dont accept stuff easily, but just try to have an open mind about it until its proven wrong. You guys say "its crazy" ...blah blah blah...but where have u seen it proven wrong? What makes you "believe" that its so crazy? All i asked for was one example where you saw the two run with the same combo and the 351w beat it.


You base everything off a phone call were someone told you this, were is the proof in that? I have never in all my years heard a statement like the one you have made about 347's and I have been around 41 years and been into motors for 31 of those years. A higher Rod-To-Stroke Ratio means the piston stays at top dead center longer which in turn gives you better combustion and that means HP. Motor for motor a 351W will cost you less then building a 347 and the 351 or should I say 357W will have more HP & TQ.

Block for block you can do anything to either block but in the end the 351W will have more CC's and be a hell of a stronger block, that my friend is what every motor head is after for the foundation of their motor. There a ton of people running 347's and running low et's but motor for motor in a test were each motor used the same heads/Cam...ect I see the 351W winning by a nose because it has more CC's and that means more Air/Gas in the cylinder.
 
vristang said:
Uh, cost to power.

$1800 to put in the 351w. I could have done it cheaper but wanted to get a 7qt pan at the same time. The cheapest 347 stroker from CHP is listed at $1999. Pretty much a wash.

Rotating mass is not going to make that big of a difference for a street car. On the track maybe, if it is driven right, and by right I mean that the lower mass engine will have to be revved higher. This has durability issues. An engine that is revved higher will need to be rebuilt more often.
My choice was obvious from my sig. Sooner or later you realize that you will always be looking for more power. For example I once thought that the ultimate combo was a cobra intake and 24lb inj on a 302. That got old quick. I now purchase parts that are upgradable because in the long run it will be cheaper.


$1800? I guess the motor wasnt rebuilt and that does not include any mods. When was a street car mentioned?

mnsports said:
You base everything off a phone call were someone told you this, were is the proof in that? I have never in all my years heard a statement like the one you have made about 347's and I have been around 41 years and been into motors for 31 of those years. A higher Rod-To-Stroke Ratio means the piston stays at top dead center longer which in turn gives you better combustion and that means HP. Motor for motor a 351W will cost you less then building a 347 and the 351 or should I say 357W will have more HP & TQ.

Block for block you can do anything to either block but in the end the 351W will have more CC's and be a hell of a stronger block, that my friend is what every motor head is after for the foundation of their motor. There a ton of people running 347's and running low et's but motor for motor in a test were each motor used the same heads/Cam...ect I see the 351W winning by a nose because it has more CC's and that means more Air/Gas in the cylinder.

How is a 351 cheaper to build when the 351w stroker kits on average are more expensive?

There a million and one guys who have been in this game for 30-40-50 years. Big deal. Want an award? That does not equal knowledge on the subject. Not trying to say you dont have any because i dont know you. It wasnt a phone call either smart guy :nice: Jay Allen, just like Ed C., Buddy Rawls, etc and any other cam designer probably knows more than 99% of the guys on this board. I would take his statement as truth seeing as he worked on at the place where it happened over some guys typing on their computers. Either way, everything must be taken with a grain of salt as usual. You might not bet on it but its sure as h*ll isnt impossible.

mricci said:
It seems to me like nmcgrawj is trying to compare a stroker motor to an old 351 out of a junkyard, wich you cannot compare. Everyone else is comparing an equally built 351 to a 347.

Im comparing a 351w, whether out of the junkyard or rebuilt. 408's can be built to make serious power. Thats undeniable. Im comparing 347 cubic inches in a 302 block to 351 inches or even 357 inches in a 351w block.

Everyone can post their "theories" and blah blah blah, no one has seen it done or not done except for in my example. At one time the world was thought to be flat....until someone proved that theory to be wrong. Who cares about what "should" happen power wise on the dyno, what matters is what happends on the track. Theories dont make a car run down the track. In this case, all you guys are saying that Jay Allen is full of bull *****....quick question, why arent you designing cams then? Im still partially suspicious of it myself, but it makes sense. Physics is physics.

Thenemesis said:
:stupid: even a stock stroke 351 with a hot cam, heads (even if 69 heads) is 400 horse in my eyes.. lol strong motors those windsors are :nice:


So is a 347 :nice:




Look guys, im not trying to start an endless battle of opinions. If you cant accept it as a possibility than thats fine, no harm done. But to throw it out the window when a very good cam designer experienced it is kinda silly. Most people are "Thinking" it cant happen...well how about you keep that opinion open until you see it proved right or wrong.

:flag:
 
Heh... quite a thread you got going on here. Heated! So I guess I'll throw in my experience and see where that leads...

A good family friend of ours used to drag race back in the heyday and he did fairly well. Won a few and lost a few just like everyone else. Where he made his mark, however, was in building engines. I can guarantee that he can take a 289 and build it better than just about any of you could mod out a 460. (Talking HP to HP) He has shown me pictures and told me stories of pissed off racers who got beat by his engines and swore that he cheated. There were tons of people who made him tear down the engines to make sure he wasn't slipping some sort of go-fast part in there that he shouldn't have.

Eventually Dan got tired of this and offered to build an engine with whatever parts they told him to and he would beat them still. Did he beat them? Absolutely.

Moral of the story. You can take two "professional" engine builders and build two identical motors with identical parts and they'll have different outputs. Everyone does things just a little different and somethings have more impact than others.

Can a 347 out gun a 351 or a 357? You bet your ass it can. By definition a 347 will often times have better parts on it than your simple little 351. Can a 302 out gun a 347? Hell yeah, I've seen it.

Can you out gun my 396? Ha... try it and fail miserably! :cheers:

Oh yeah, my point was that this Jay guy probably did see a 347 beat the bigger engine. Doesn't mean that every 347 will beat every 351!
 
Vipersix said:
Heh... quite a thread you got going on here. Heated! So I guess I'll throw in my experience and see where that leads...

A good family friend of ours used to drag race back in the heyday and he did fairly well. Won a few and lost a few just like everyone else. Where he made his mark, however, was in building engines. I can guarantee that he can take a 289 and build it better than just about any of you could mod out a 460. (Talking HP to HP) He has shown me pictures and told me stories of pissed off racers who got beat by his engines and swore that he cheated. There were tons of people who made him tear down the engines to make sure he wasn't slipping some sort of go-fast part in there that he shouldn't have.

Eventually Dan got tired of this and offered to build an engine with whatever parts they told him to and he would beat them still. Did he beat them? Absolutely.

Moral of the story. You can take two "professional" engine builders and build two identical motors with identical parts and they'll have different outputs. Everyone does things just a little different and somethings have more impact than others.

Can a 347 out gun a 351 or a 357? You bet your ass it can. By definition a 347 will often times have better parts on it than your simple little 351. Can a 302 out gun a 347? Hell yeah, I've seen it.

Can you out gun my 396? Ha... try it and fail miserably! :cheers:

Oh yeah, my point was that this Jay guy probably did see a 347 beat the bigger engine. Doesn't mean that every 347 will beat every 351!

Nicely said and I agree totally. What started this is are friend clamed that a 347 would outrun a 351W....thats just a crazy statement that needs to be put to rest. This guy thinks the a 347 will have more HP/TQ then a 351W just because of the lower rotating mass and that is what this is all about....Ooo well it's no big deal......I'll take my built 357W any day over a built 302 stroked block....to each his own......Hell I used to watch 2 VW Bugs race each other in the 1/4 mile...they were doing 10's.. :banana:
 
Yeah, the coolest car I've ever seen drag racing was in Savannah, GA. The guy said it was a daily driver but it beat just about every other car there. Don't know exactly what model it was but it was some sort of station wagon. Really neat to see one of those lift off the ground and rocket down to the end of the track. Dude had a 504 ci or some ridiculous engine like that in it.

:hail2:
 
nmcgrawj said:
And Rod -To- Stroke Ratio IS GARBAGE IMO. What proof do you have of it affecting a PROPERLY built motor? So, you say thats a bad thing huh? Well tell me why 300,000 mile Honda motors have a WORSE Rod -To- Stroke Ratio than a 347? Maybe Rod -To- Stroke Ratio isnt all what its hyped up to be......

I think back around 1995 one of the Mustang or Ford magazines built two identical 351W V8's. The only difference was the longer rods in one of the motors. It made more power.

Rod ratio is not garbage as you believe. Rod ratio is not very well understood. It's a kind of guideline for carracteristics and engine will have. If you want to understand rod ratio, go here and read up. Rod ratio can not be compared between two different manufacturers engines and rod ratio can't be looked at as the only way to produce or not produce power. It is only one part of a bigger picture.

Here are some facts about rod ratio.

It has a mechanical impact on piston dwell time at the top of a compression stroke.
Increasing dwell time build more pressure.
It has an impact on friction to the thrust side of the cylinder walls.
Rod length impacts the rpm and power delivery carrectoristics of an engine.
Rod length contributes to port efficency.

Understand something before you claim it's garbage. Because you obviously don't understand rod ratio.
 
tjm73 said:
Understand something before you claim it's garbage. Because you obviously don't understand rod ratio.

You have some good information that has actually been proven more than once, but this quote IMO is the bottom line.

The previous example was a comaprison between a ready-to-blow 351W and a fresh 347. Not only that, it was based on second hand information from third and fourth parties and even then the remembrance was foggy. I think this argument has become meaningless at this point as it has gone from someone asking about which 351 they should look for to an unsubstantiated argument about a 347 making more power than a 351W.
 
65ShelbyClone said:
You have some good information that has actually been proven more than once, but this quote IMO is the bottom line.

The previous example was a comaprison between a ready-to-blow 351W and a fresh 347. Not only that, it was based on second hand information from third and fourth parties and even then the remembrance was foggy. I think this argument has become meaningless at this point as it has gone from someone asking about which 351 they should look for to an unsubstantiated argument about a 347 making more power than a 351W.


Its not about making more power...its about going faster.

Here this is the story....

http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=159294&postcount=17


I apologize about the rod ratio, i was misinformed about it. I will read up on that stuff :nice: Didnt mean to turn it into a battle...more of a informational conversation :flag: