header or not to header?

first off, i think kb's site also says that the most they see from headers is 6 hp. i dont know if that is from l/t, but its still more then stock either way you look at it. is it worth all the doe for 6 hp? no.

i still find it hard to believe they gained nothing. what, all mods gains increase with a blower except for headers? that dont make sence. cai gains nothing on na, but with a blower they make 5 hp. na x pipe makes 5-10, but with a blower they make 15-20. these are just examples, but my point is why everything else and not l/t? if i can pick up 15rwhp non aspirated, i expect that when air is being pushed through id pick up some power over having shorties. there is a more open way for the air to exit.:shrug:

oh BTW yea its doubtful that the 30 rwhp increase came just from your x pipe. lol
 
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so basically you're saying if i force feed my motor, headers are worthless?

so all these top fuelers have been doing it wrong all these years...they should switch back to cast manifolds they might get another 75-100hp then...

honestly, gain with LT's vs say a change in pulley...in effort for HP gain...pulley wins hands down. if you want the most power possible, it SURE AS HELL WON'T BE DONE WITH STOCK MANIFOLDS!!
 
are they just saying that there's no PEEK gain with the headers ? If there's no peek gains are there any other gains else where in the range ? i.e. does your peek hp stay the same at 300 or whatever but you see a gain of 25 hp from 4500-6000 ????

I have a set of MAC longtubes in the garage waiting to go on, i just havent got the 3 days required to beat them in to place yet.. but they will be going on

EDGE
 
white99gt said:
On a KB car ,i doubt he can tell where the torque moves with a set of headers.
true, I just remember seeing a dyno showing a loss of maybe 6ftlbs at around 2,000 rpm's and maybe 6-8 ftlb gain around 5,000 rpm's...whatever, I put lt's on my car before reading the info on kb's website and if I did it again I might not waste my money on that mod, I agree they can't hurt and the sound is good !
 
Fubar02GT said:
honestly, gain with LT's vs say a change in pulley...in effort for HP gain...pulley wins hands down. if you want the most power possible, it SURE AS HELL WON'T BE DONE WITH STOCK MANIFOLDS!!

9lbs is about the limit (as far as safe zone is concerned) on a stock block, though a few have pushed it over to as much as 12 PSI. Swapping pulleys may seem to be the easiest way to gain hp, but it can also prove costly if you get too greedy.
 
TweekedGT said:
That's right from Kenne Bells website. Trust me, i didn't believe it either cause i spent enough on these stupid things. But pretty good chance they no more about their product than we do.
No offence Tweeked......but I've never seen any company make more...."creative" statements than Kenne Bell does. Long Tube Headers may provide minimal gains for a car with no inlet mods, but once you start opening things up at the intake side, exhaust mods are essential to better performance.

So many people with blown cars are fooled into thinking that their cars are going to be real performers when they add a bigger T/B or power pipe and see an additional 1-2psi on the boost gauge. The truth is, is that most of the additional air flow gained is being backed up within the intake track and isn't doing much of anything at all but make numbers on the boost gauge. Then what really screws them up is when they afterwards open up the exhaust end (by adding headers like described above) and watch the gauge come back down again......but power levels still go up? :scratch:

You should see some blower people scratch their heads after adding a set of cams and ported heads to the mix on top of this. :D Boost pressure not only doesn’t rise, but drops off at peek levels, and power really rises :eek: !?!?! This is exactly what you want to see. You open up things on both the inlet and outlet end and your engine is now working more efficiently using and expelling the additional airflow that these modifications have provided and your bolt-ons have done their job…..not only that, but now discharge temperatures are reduces as a result that works even more to your advantage. Now it’s time to swap out to a smaller pulley and really make some power! :nice:

….yeah, I know this post went all over the place. :D

o3redfire said:
the bad thing about headers is they rob low end torque, that the 4.6 mod motors need and add it to the high end torque, so yes they may add some torque, but not where you need it for day to day driving...
Maybe at a very off idle sense and/or with shorties, but long tubes will actually aid in low end torque. Just keep the primary diameter within reason (no larger than 1 5/8 with any car that’s not making in the 450-500rwhp) and the torque loss at the very bottom end will easily be overshadowed with the gains made throughout the rest of your power band. :nice: If anyone were to make a 1 ½” LT for the 4.6L, you could bet it would make even more torque and horsepower still on you every day bolt on N/A Stang.
 
gearbanger 101, I agree with what you say about the headers. How is it that headers make more power on other s/c cars (centri blown cars) but they don't work on KB s/c cars, something doesn't add up there.

Anyway, I have a question for you. You talk about opening up the intake side, but how much needs to be done to really improve the flow. Will just a large intake tube and a new t/b do the trick or are you talking cams and heads. I have been thinking of getting blown and I want to get the supporting mods, but I want to get the right ones. I am not looking for every once of power, but I have been thinking of getting Bassani headers but if I need new heads and cams than I might just stick with the stock heads.

Also, wouldn't lowering the boost pressure but retaining the same amount of power be better for the engine. So even if you got new headers and the boost dropped 1psi, but you still have the same power, couldn't you change the pulley, add 1psi and now you have more power at the same boost as before. Sorry for any repeated questions or info, just trying to learn.


Great thread
 
rpburnette said:
Anyway, I have a question for you. You talk about opening up the intake side, but how much needs to be done to really improve the flow. Will just a large intake tube and a new t/b do the trick or are you talking cams and heads. I have been thinking of getting blown and I want to get the supporting mods, but I want to get the right ones. I am not looking for every once of power, but I have been thinking of getting Bassani headers but if I need new heads and cams than I might just stick with the stock heads.
A larger smoother intake tube, MAF and T/B is one way to improve intake flow. Another depending on the amount of air you're trying to move is to have the manifold and blower (assuming it's a positive displacement) ported. And yes a good port and polish of the heads and cams will do the same as well.

Is it all necessary??? It all depends on the amount of power you're trying to make and how restrictive your system is to start with. I have to admit, that the Kenne Bell components (blower and intake) are a very high item to start with, so unless you're trying to eek out ever little ounce of jam, porting these components probably isn't necessary. Bet were it a centrifugal, you can bet going to a high flow intake beyond the stock PI will net you some great gains.

The headers and other exhaust mods as already explained have the opposite effect. They will allow boost pressure to be relieved some, since the system is able to expel exhaust gasses more freely and less is being backed up within the system. This will only work to a certain extent on a stock engine, since the stock cams will only allow for so much cylinder fill and evacuation because of their relatively mild lift and duration. That being said...its this relatively mild lift and duration that keeps our cars idling smooth on the street and making good low end torque figures. I've know half a dozen people that have used blower cams in Positive Displacement blown cars that have lost a pile of low end torque and not gained a lot of top end in the process. PD blowers are very sensitive to cam changes….more so that Centrifugal blown cars. A set of cams that work well with a Centi car is often far overkill for a PD one. You have to keep in mind that PD blowers ram huge volumes of air into the system in one revolution of the pulley, in comparison to a Centi that needs several revolutions and more blower RPM to move that same volume of air. Boost is more gradual with the Centi and as such, cylinder fill and evacuation is more controlled. IMO, cams should probably be one of the last things on the list of a guy running a Kenne Bell, or other positive displacement charger after all of the other avenues (intake, exhaust, pulleys) have been addressed/exhausted.


rpburnette said:
Also, wouldn't lowering the boost pressure but retaining the same amount of power be better for the engine. So even if you got new headers and the boost dropped 1psi, but you still have the same power, couldn't you change the pulley, add 1psi and now you have more power at the same boost as before. Sorry for any repeated questions or info, just trying to learn.
Exactly! Lower boost levles, while still making the same amount, or better power is what you're looking to achieve. Just because one makes a certain amount of boost, doesn't mean that they're moving the same volume of air. A smaller displacement engine, with a more restrictive intake system will see a lot higher numbers on the boost gauge than one with the larger displacement and more free flowing intake/exhaust system. This is why you often see small displacement imports running 16psi or so in order to run with a V8 that's making half that. Small displacement engines are more easily and quickly pressurized and as a result, boost levels rise more quickly and often to a higher extent. That same blower, spinning that same RPM on a larger displacement engine, now has twice the cylinder volume to fill and as such won't see nearly the same numbers on the boost gauge…..yet its still seeing the same volume of air.

Now, pulleying up after doing these mods is one way to make more power again. Discharge temperatures will now be lower, because a lesser volume of air on the intake side is being backed up within the system and more is being expelled on the exhaust end. The system is to an extent working more "efficiently" than it was before, but it only works this way as long as the blower is still running within it's efficiency range. You can only over spin a blower so much before it literally runs out of breath and a larger volume supercharger is needed to bring things to the next level and pick up the slack. Then you get to start all over again with the next model up. :D
 
Will the headers provide other bennefits to the engine other than power gains?
Would my engine run more effienciently with the headers, such as lower temp or any others? If the the headers don't give me much gain in power or any other bennefits then I don't see much of a point in busting my balls getting them in there..but if it was better for my engine to run them then I would it. I was also once told that the headers don't make much difference in the exhaust sound, is this not true??
thanks.
 
02'MineralGT said:
Will the headers provide other bennefits to the engine other than power gains?
Would my engine run more effienciently with the headers, such as lower temp or any others? If the the headers don't give me much gain in power or any other bennefits then I don't see much of a point in busting my balls getting them in there..but if it was better for my engine to run them then I would it. I was also once told that the headers don't make much difference in the exhaust sound, is this not true??
thanks.

Depends on the headers.With ceramic coated ones.There will be less engine bay heat,they will cool off quicker ,and they look nice(what you can see of them).Plus any power gain is a plus.