Ethanol (e10) & gas prices...wtf?

[wht93gtEd]

well, this goes along with Daggar's gas price thread, so I'm not going to say what hasn't already been said, but read this:

"Yet prices at the pump also reflect the higher cost of delivering and blending ethanol into gasoline, as mandated by federal and state laws designed to combat air pollution.

"Not only are these costs higher than for the additive ethanol replaced, MTBE, but ethanol is also in tight supply," analyst Trilby Lundberg told Reuters on Sunday.

Lundberg also noted several U.S. East Coast and Texas cities reported "spotty outages," where gasoline sales were halted as service stations waited for deliveries of ethanol-blended product.

Ethanol, which is produced from corn and other crops, helps reduce emissions that contribute to smog. MTBE, a chemical that had been used for the same purpose, is being phased out after being linked to drinking water contamination."

Now let me get this straight...Ethanol, a product produced from mainly corn, costs more than a chemical that needs to be manufactured (MTBE)? I understand that there's the "conversion" process, but please...our country's #1 (numero uno) crop is corn (trust me, I googled it).

So, how can there be a shortage of Ethanol if it's made from corn. I mean, this is basic math people...we all know that if A=B & B=C, logically A=C? Right? So if Corn=Ethanol & Ethanol=Shortage, then we must have a shortage of corn, right? But we don't!! So is this just a case of money hungry farmers? Do we not just have to worry about the oil companies, and also worry about the farmers jacking up the price of gas? Man...this sucks!

 

[llwood]

from what i read almost all of the ethonol plants just happen to be shut down right now, thats why there is a shortage

 

[poneypower89]

The problem with your mathmatic reasoning is a very famous mistake.

Yes A can equal B and B can equal C... but that doesnt neccessarily mean A equals C..

Just because we have LOTS of corn.. doesnt mean we have lots of ethanol.. we only have lots of the main ingrediant in ethanol.. not the ethanol itself.



Example:

All Ravens Are Black
This Bird is Black
Therefore: this bird is a Raven... not so

Deductive reasoning does not work 100%

you need an argument that follows like this one..

Only Ravens are Black
This bird is Black
Therefore: This bird is a Raven

If you can come up with that.. then you are in business

 

[kpack5982]

Only farmers I know that are getting rich are the ones that run large hog confinement operations in this neck of the woods. The farmers whose primary crop is corn usually make enough to get by, unless they undertake acres and acres of land. And why the hell are the ethanol plants shut down or in limited production? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Looks to me like another way the government can regulate their taxation on gas

 

[Daggar]

I'm no chemist but I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10% ethanol is not accomplishing what it was intended to accomplish in the first place. It may burn cleaner but you have to burn more of it to get the same energy.

 

[Daggar]

What really kills me is that when ethanol first appeared, we were paying LESS for that gas than we were for regular gas. Now these asshats are charging the same price for ethanol gas. Most go around paying it and don't even realize it.

 

[Roland69]

my friend bought a TDI and makes his own biodiesel or something like that.

 

[ej95cobra]

The transportation of ethanol is a problem. Etahanol is highly corrosive and can't be pumped through traditional pipelines. Our gas mileage will suffer and we're paying through the nose for gas. Another great idea from our government representatives...actually a corn belt coup. If distribution drives the price to ridiculous levels, what's going to happen when we have a drought and all the corn dies?! We should vote all current representatives and senators out of office.

 

[red89stanggt]

I solved my gas mileage problem by buying a new 06 GSXR 1000.. Screw the big oil companies and their rediculous price gouging.. Im so sick of driving past the gas station on my way to work with premimum at 3.25 a gallon and coming home past the same station 10 hours later only to see the price has gone up 3-5 cents per gallon.. There is no reason for this.. My local paper said that we may even have gas shortages or stations running out of gas in the next week or so..

 

[Hissing Cobra]

Gas prices flat out suck at the moment and the U.S. government is allowing the big oil companies to rape and pillage us daily, without vaseline. That being said, I work 6 miles from my house and my wife works 7. We no longer are bent over from these LEGAL criminals and don't have to spend a lot on gas. Thanks to the GREAT American government for looking out for it's people. Pat yourselves on the back.

 

[bluevenom867]

They can used both ethanol and methanol,if corn gets expensive,then they can refine methanol from coal and wood untill it corn is more plentiful.

Daggar,the Ethanol/Methanol does need a richer mixture,but it will allow for higher compression ratios and lower cylinder temps ,witch is more effecint.

Oh,and gas price is jsut corprate greed...you know the people that have stocks in fuel companies like the higher prices.....not to mention their record profits witch Im sure is not ALL of it either.

 

[NKau]

I'm no chemist but I have a sneaking suspicion that the 10% ethanol is not accomplishing what it was intended to accomplish in the first place. It may burn cleaner but you have to burn more of it to get the same energy.

You do have to burn more of it to get the same energy, but it is energy efficient, meaning that in the end, you will pay roughly the same or slightly less to travel a mile on ethanol as you would gasoline. Ethanol prices seem to be more of a product of low production coupled with mandates than high production/transportation cost. Here in WI, seven large ethanol plants are in the process of being built over the next two years; I think there are something like 3 operating here as of now. I think ethanol will prove itself over time. It's BS from people who were mad over the MTBE thing and general misinformation that give both ethanol and soy-diesel a bad rap.

If distribution drives the price to ridiculous levels, what's going to happen when we have a drought and all the corn dies?!

There is more shell corn grown in this country than we know what to do with. There are droughts/storm damage in major corn growing states every year; never enough to have a large effect on anything but local prices. The only reason many smaller farmers make money on grain crops is through goverment subsidies. The goverment subisidizes our farmers just enough to keep them going for the most part; there are the exception of larger farms etc. that actually make a lot of money off government subsidization. The only reason we have goverment subsidies is to keep the cost of food low. High production = low consumer cost. On average, an American spends 8% of there income on food
Citizens of Japan supposedly spend 30%+ on food. Our government knows the value of subisidizing cropland in America. If ethanol technologies improve and can replace a relavent portion of fossil fuels, it will relieve a great burden on us in terms of fuel cost, and will hopefully lower the neccessity of goverment payments to our farmers.

If ethanol improves as a technology, I have no problem giving grain producers of this country my money v.s. some gun-toting psychopathic towelhead.

 

[Daggar]

Ethanol costs the consumer more, not less. Take a look at the articles concerning E85. Though E85 is cheaper, it's not cheap enough to go the same distance on the same money that you can with gasoline.

By the way... The second quote that you got me down for Nkau, is not mine.

 

[Daggar]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-14-e85-usat_x.htm

It's like cutting your drugs with baking soda so you can sell more product at the same price. lol

 

[larrendeuce]

I read an article on this issue, I think it was wired magazine. I don't remember specifics but here is the gist. Ethanol and methanol are renewable but there still isn't enough to fill the demand. Take the whole corn supply and reserve and use it to make ethanol and it would only be able to supply a small percentage of the fuel demand. The only viable alternatives to oil are years off in development. Hydrogen fuel would be the most abundant replacement for oil, aside from solar power.

 

[Blk91stang]

I read an article on this issue, I think it was wired magazine. I don't remember specifics but here is the gist. Ethanol and methanol are renewable but there still isn't enough to fill the demand. Take the whole corn supply and reserve and use it to make ethanol and it would only be able to supply a small percentage of the fuel demand. The only viable alternatives to oil are years off in development. Hydrogen fuel would be the most abundant replacement for oil, aside from solar power.

What about natural gas? This seems like the best way to go and is a re-newable resource. Most cars can easily be setup to run on this (some business vehicles already are) whereas hydrogen needs high pressure and all that other caca to make it work.

 

[timewarped1972]

we have two big problems. there are just certain things that help make this world go round the way it's set up, one of them is oil.

unfortunately, and the same thing happens with health care as well, when ever you have people with a basic need, and those in controll of it are making a profit, your going to have a problem.....greed sets in, polotics, etc........

you know, we have the tobacco companies doing commercials on tv to help people stop smoking.....lol....

we have the health care industry advertising drugs every 10 minutes on tv, yet at the same time they say they want to make people healthier......if you made billions a year would you want your customers to go get well??

then the oil companies. who do their commercials about supporting free or cheaper energy alternatives........and wanting to help the enviroment....lol

this is the crap they try to brainwash us with daily.......they never fix anything.......they let crap go untill the last minute and guess who ends up payin for it......yep...........us.......although maybe it's all of our faults to begin with for letting it get outa hand

 

[89white50]

Im a GEO major and had a class on this subject. If we took all of our corn this country makes at the momonet and turned it into ethanol, it would on produce enough to make up some 16% of the fuel used in the transportation industry. that how much petroleum we use...honestly we need to build some more nuclear plants to make electricity, instead of pissing away our gas on it. At the current rate of production, there is enough oil to last us another 60 years before peak production falls off. This means theres plenty of it to go around for a little while, the government and the oil companies are just jacking us around.

 

[MrStang123]

B.S.

 

[fiveohwblow]

The transportation of ethanol is a problem. Etahanol is highly corrosive and can't be pumped through traditional pipelines. Our gas mileage will suffer and we're paying through the nose for gas. Another great idea from our government representatives...actually a corn belt coup. If distribution drives the price to ridiculous levels, what's going to happen when we have a drought and all the corn dies?! We should vote all current representatives and senators out of office.

Over gas???