AFR 185s
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I hear ya! but trust me I've done the same thing, had parts sitting in my room and instead of waiting and saving for a $250 part i just went with the weaker of the two parts and now I'm going to have to go through and buy all new parts and basically pay for it twice anyways!! I'm talking about buying gears, install kit, and eaton posi, and staying with my stock axles. so now I'm going to have to replace all of that plus installation fee because of the different spline count!
If you can force yourself to wait you will thank yourself later!
but in the end it is your decision, just think rationally and don't do something you'll regret later. either way good luck with your new combo!
scott
If you can force yourself to wait you will thank yourself later!
but in the end it is your decision, just think rationally and don't do something you'll regret later. either way good luck with your new combo!
scott
hey guys, I really appreciate your help on this, and I hope we can all learn from it, cause I used the search tool extensively and I couldn't get all the information I needed.
My plans in the future are to do a TT setup. But I wanted to get the 185s one summer (with new pistons, possibly new rods...hell I might go 331) and bolt them on and then wait another summer or two before going to the turbos.
It seems we have some conflicting information here...from FTI, a guy that builds engines for 30 years and Paul...whom I trust very much. Intuition tells me to go with Paul on this one. And I don't understand why the 185 would be too much for a 302...I don't really see the velocity being that much of a problem that the heads would actually make the car slower.
I do not want to buy a set of 165s only to buy 185s a year or two later. I'm a firm believer in buying something once, and not having to buy it again...even if it costs money in the short term.
My main goal is to have something I can rev decently high, has street manners, and can be driven often (I don't want a freaken drag car). And one last thing, I hope some of you guys can answer...
no bull****, is it SAFER to take a 302 to higher rpms than a 331 (I know a 347 would be less safe).
My plans in the future are to do a TT setup. But I wanted to get the 185s one summer (with new pistons, possibly new rods...hell I might go 331) and bolt them on and then wait another summer or two before going to the turbos.
It seems we have some conflicting information here...from FTI, a guy that builds engines for 30 years and Paul...whom I trust very much. Intuition tells me to go with Paul on this one. And I don't understand why the 185 would be too much for a 302...I don't really see the velocity being that much of a problem that the heads would actually make the car slower.
I do not want to buy a set of 165s only to buy 185s a year or two later. I'm a firm believer in buying something once, and not having to buy it again...even if it costs money in the short term.
My main goal is to have something I can rev decently high, has street manners, and can be driven often (I don't want a freaken drag car). And one last thing, I hope some of you guys can answer...
no bull****, is it SAFER to take a 302 to higher rpms than a 331 (I know a 347 would be less safe).
mootang said:
i know exactly what you are saying. no sense in doing things twice. but like i said, gotta look at the financial perspective of it too. i just got off the phone with Jason at AFR while ago and mid way thru out convo, we got disconnected. couldnt get ahold of him after that so i will try tomorrow. he said the 185s arent bad for a 306...a little big. he wasnt satisfied with my cam choice. we were talking about that when we lost connection. i called back and got another guy and we talked for a few minutes. he on the other hand said he thought i had a good combo chosen, cam and all. so that right there just goes to show you. 2 different opinions from the company that makes the head!!!!
im calling back tomorrow and see what more Jason has to say.
thanks for all your input man
i wouldnt say the heads will make the car slower, but you will definitely be suffering in the low end. ill give you an example even though it is with a different set of heads. i bought a used set of twisted wedge heads from a buddy of mine. they were completely worked and ported as much as they could possibly be opened up. i put them on with my gt40 intake and tfs stage 1 cam. this is all on a stock bottom end by the way. the car had nothing at all down low. it would only start pulling after 3k rpm's. the car actually felt faster before the heads even though im sure that was just my imagination. all we are trying to tell you is that the 185 is not the head to go with on a n/a 302. if you are going tt in a year or so though thats a totally different ballgame. i agree with not spending the cash twice especially when we are talking about a $1400 set of heads. as far as the motor goes, if you are going to do it, do it right the first time. save the extra cash and go with the 331. you will thank yourself for it down the road.Therian said:
The 185's will NOT make you lose low end torque!!!
Heres a thread with a few real world examples, just search through it. http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=599345
If you decide you want to do a stroker instead of a 306, go 347. The assemblies cost the same so don't give up the free cubes.
Heres a thread with a few real world examples, just search through it. http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=599345
If you decide you want to do a stroker instead of a 306, go 347. The assemblies cost the same so don't give up the free cubes.
Methodical
Active Member
Fiveoho and Therian here is Ed Curtis emails to me. You will need to read from bottom up. I've put Ed's responses in RED. The email dates are from 12/1-12/6/03. Like I said earlier maybe things have changed since then. Note: The comment he mad about velocity and port size led me to believe it would affect low end torque. Remember, all combos are different and this is what I wanted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Conner, Albert A
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
Hello Curtis and how are you? Ok. I will rely on your experience and history. So, I think I will go with the 165 (58cc) heads. But I do have other questions below that would set me straight.
1. I measured the deck height of the pistons and its .017 in the hole and I come up with a compression ratio (CR) of about 9.5:1 with 58cc heads and about 9.7:1 with 56cc heads. Are these CRs good for a strong engine rebuild? I would like to get the CR close to 10:1 but don't know if its necessary or worth the cost of milling the heads and possibly the intake. Remember, I already have the short block together and did not have the machine shop 0 deck my block. Are the additional CRs worth the effort and additional cost for whatever power gain?
~~~ Then a trip to the mill is a good idea for the heads. Get .020" off them and you'll be able to bolt them right on. No intake rework at all...
2. If you were to mill the heads from 58cc to 56cc, would I also have to mill the intake? Basically, what other modification would need to be done if the heads are milled? And what other problems may occur.
~~~ A check of the bolt hole clearances of the intake are all you'll need to do.
3. I plan to use 1.7 roller rockers which would give me a lift of .531 (intake) and .541 (exhaust). So, should I upgrade the spring package on the AFR heads?
~~ The "rate" of the cam lobe events, that the valve would see will be increased with the 1.7 rockers so it's a very good idea to do this...
4. The car will be N/A first and foremost, however, I am contemplating a 100-125 shot of NOS - dry system. How will my proposed setup work in conjunction with NOS (i.e. CR, milling of heads etc.).
~~ At 125 you'll be fine with a N/A spec camshaft....
5. With the AFR 165 heads and either the Holley or Edelbrock RPM intake, what would be the expected HP range?
~~~ Well... no way to know... Some guys see 290 some guys see 335... Tune, dyno and a lot of variables... All I know is the guys that run fast don't use the dyno as a benchmark.. Just their results.
6. What radiator would be best to keep the car cool?
~~ Be Cool has a bolt in unit. Great piece!
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=727 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="1%"> </TD><TD width="38%">"E Curtis" <[email protected]>
12/03/03 06:28 PM
</TD><TD width="60%">
To: "Conner, Albert A" <[email protected]>
cc:
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
----- Original Message -----
From: Conner, Albert A
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
Hello Ed and thanks for the quick response. I am currently running MAC 1-5/8 shorty headers. Also, you stated that a cam change would work wonders for my low end torque. What type of cam would you suggest (i.e. lift, duration etc.)?
~~ Albert, it would be easier to get the launch codes for ICBM missles from the Prez than get numbers from me...
Why is the AFR 165 heads best for this combination?
~~~ Port size and velocity. I've done plenty of strong combinations with these heads and yours fits right in.
What would be the result, both pros and cons, if I were to use the AFR 185s with my current setup?
~~~ Here's where you're going to have to rely on my experience and history... It's the right way to go.
Ed
I am just trying to weigh my options and understand how things work together and why? Again, thanks for your help. Have a good day.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=727 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="1%"> </TD><TD width="39%">"E Curtis" <[email protected]>
12/02/03 10:27 AM
</TD><TD width="60%">
To: "Conner, Albert A" <[email protected]>
cc:
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Hello Albert,
After looking at your entire combination, the AFR 165 heads with a Performer intake would be the best choice to reach your goals. A little bit of a cam change would work wonders for your low end torque and everything is readily available. The Lunati has an exhaust to intake bias more in tuned with stock heads whereas the AFR heads need less...
Which headers are you running? A set of small diameter long tubes would help.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Conner, Albert A
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: Head/Intake combo
Hello Ed and how are you? I spoke with you on 12/1/03 about the proper induction combo for my rebuilt. You suggested that I email you with my car information in order for you to better assist me. I am building a 306 motor from my 95 Cobra car and need assistance in selecting the proper heads and intake combo for my car. I am undecided on whether to use the AFR 165 or 185 heads with either the Edelbrock Performer RPM or the Holley Systemax intake. My goal is to maintain as much low end torque but gain much more top end right upto the 6250-6500 RPMs. This will be a street legal car that must pass the emission test that may see some strip action. Below is a list of the work done to the block as of today. Please email me your suggestions and whether you stock the items you suggest along with your cost to [email protected]. Thanks in advance for you help. Let me know if you need additional information
- stock crankshaft
- Eagle forged rods with ARP waveloc bolts
- Probe Industries forged pistons (4.030)(Sportman Racing Series) w/plasma moly rings
- Lunati dual pattern roller cam - .500/510 Duration 218/226, respectively (RPM 2500-6000)
- Crane lifters
- FMS double roller timing chain
- stock distributor
- Stock oil pan
- 3.73 gears
- 65MM TB will upgrade to 70mm with new intake
- 73mm MAF
- MSD 6AL
- 190 LPH fuel pump
- fuel pressure gauge
- 24lbs. injectors
- K&N air filter
- B&M ripper shifter
- March underdrive pulleys
- strut tower brace
- subframe connectors
- MAC 1-5/8 shorty headers
- off road H-pipe - switching to X pipe
----- Original Message -----
From: Conner, Albert A
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
Hello Curtis and how are you? Ok. I will rely on your experience and history. So, I think I will go with the 165 (58cc) heads. But I do have other questions below that would set me straight.
1. I measured the deck height of the pistons and its .017 in the hole and I come up with a compression ratio (CR) of about 9.5:1 with 58cc heads and about 9.7:1 with 56cc heads. Are these CRs good for a strong engine rebuild? I would like to get the CR close to 10:1 but don't know if its necessary or worth the cost of milling the heads and possibly the intake. Remember, I already have the short block together and did not have the machine shop 0 deck my block. Are the additional CRs worth the effort and additional cost for whatever power gain?
~~~ Then a trip to the mill is a good idea for the heads. Get .020" off them and you'll be able to bolt them right on. No intake rework at all...
2. If you were to mill the heads from 58cc to 56cc, would I also have to mill the intake? Basically, what other modification would need to be done if the heads are milled? And what other problems may occur.
~~~ A check of the bolt hole clearances of the intake are all you'll need to do.
3. I plan to use 1.7 roller rockers which would give me a lift of .531 (intake) and .541 (exhaust). So, should I upgrade the spring package on the AFR heads?
~~ The "rate" of the cam lobe events, that the valve would see will be increased with the 1.7 rockers so it's a very good idea to do this...
4. The car will be N/A first and foremost, however, I am contemplating a 100-125 shot of NOS - dry system. How will my proposed setup work in conjunction with NOS (i.e. CR, milling of heads etc.).
~~ At 125 you'll be fine with a N/A spec camshaft....
5. With the AFR 165 heads and either the Holley or Edelbrock RPM intake, what would be the expected HP range?
~~~ Well... no way to know... Some guys see 290 some guys see 335... Tune, dyno and a lot of variables... All I know is the guys that run fast don't use the dyno as a benchmark.. Just their results.
6. What radiator would be best to keep the car cool?
~~ Be Cool has a bolt in unit. Great piece!
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=727 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="1%"> </TD><TD width="38%">"E Curtis" <[email protected]>
12/03/03 06:28 PM
</TD><TD width="60%">
To: "Conner, Albert A" <[email protected]>
cc:
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
----- Original Message -----
From: Conner, Albert A
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
Hello Ed and thanks for the quick response. I am currently running MAC 1-5/8 shorty headers. Also, you stated that a cam change would work wonders for my low end torque. What type of cam would you suggest (i.e. lift, duration etc.)?
~~ Albert, it would be easier to get the launch codes for ICBM missles from the Prez than get numbers from me...
Why is the AFR 165 heads best for this combination?
~~~ Port size and velocity. I've done plenty of strong combinations with these heads and yours fits right in.
What would be the result, both pros and cons, if I were to use the AFR 185s with my current setup?
~~~ Here's where you're going to have to rely on my experience and history... It's the right way to go.
Ed
I am just trying to weigh my options and understand how things work together and why? Again, thanks for your help. Have a good day.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=727 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="1%"> </TD><TD width="39%">"E Curtis" <[email protected]>
12/02/03 10:27 AM
</TD><TD width="60%">
To: "Conner, Albert A" <[email protected]>
cc:
Subject: Re: Head/Intake combo
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Hello Albert,
After looking at your entire combination, the AFR 165 heads with a Performer intake would be the best choice to reach your goals. A little bit of a cam change would work wonders for your low end torque and everything is readily available. The Lunati has an exhaust to intake bias more in tuned with stock heads whereas the AFR heads need less...
Which headers are you running? A set of small diameter long tubes would help.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Conner, Albert A
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: Head/Intake combo
Hello Ed and how are you? I spoke with you on 12/1/03 about the proper induction combo for my rebuilt. You suggested that I email you with my car information in order for you to better assist me. I am building a 306 motor from my 95 Cobra car and need assistance in selecting the proper heads and intake combo for my car. I am undecided on whether to use the AFR 165 or 185 heads with either the Edelbrock Performer RPM or the Holley Systemax intake. My goal is to maintain as much low end torque but gain much more top end right upto the 6250-6500 RPMs. This will be a street legal car that must pass the emission test that may see some strip action. Below is a list of the work done to the block as of today. Please email me your suggestions and whether you stock the items you suggest along with your cost to [email protected]. Thanks in advance for you help. Let me know if you need additional information
- stock crankshaft
- Eagle forged rods with ARP waveloc bolts
- Probe Industries forged pistons (4.030)(Sportman Racing Series) w/plasma moly rings
- Lunati dual pattern roller cam - .500/510 Duration 218/226, respectively (RPM 2500-6000)
- Crane lifters
- FMS double roller timing chain
- stock distributor
- Stock oil pan
- 3.73 gears
- 65MM TB will upgrade to 70mm with new intake
- 73mm MAF
- MSD 6AL
- 190 LPH fuel pump
- fuel pressure gauge
- 24lbs. injectors
- K&N air filter
- B&M ripper shifter
- March underdrive pulleys
- strut tower brace
- subframe connectors
- MAC 1-5/8 shorty headers
- off road H-pipe - switching to X pipe
Therian said:
First off, if you plan to go with a turbo setup you absolutely need to upgrade the springs on both the intake and exhaust valve, especially with a turbo. With any forced induction you have positive pressure behind the intake valve trying to force it open, and in a turbo setup you also have a lot more backpressure in the exhaust trying to do the same thing. Check with AFR too if a turbo is in your future as I believe they have an exhaust port modification available to aid in flow for forced induction setups.
As for my info conflicting with FTI, I'm not sure where you got that. I agree whole heartedly with Ed and thus the reason I run 165's on my car. They were right for my combo which is a mild street setup. I can promise you that Ed wouldn't always recommend the 165 for a 302/306 as it all depends on the combo like I mentioned. The thing is that he has produced MULTIPLE 11 second stock bottom end cars using the 165's so they fit the bill for many a 302/306 combo, but I know that there are 306's out there he'd put a 185 on too based on the the rest of their combo. Trust me, Ed knows a TON more than I do and I'd go with his recomendation anyday over mine or just about anyone elses based on the experience I have had with him and the results. He has helped setup both my car and my dad's NA '91GT which is also a stock bore 302 with SRP pistsons, stock crank and rods, holley systemax II kit ported by Ed and a custom FTI cam... and it made 347rwhp/338rwtq!
I agree with not having to buy parts twice, but then again I only recommend buying "bigger" parts if you are 100% sure that your setup will change to take advantage of them in the future. I swore that if and when I hit the 11's I'd be done. Hell at the time I put the combo together all I wanted was a low 13 second car that would trap 105. At the time I never though in a million years I'd be running anything wilder in the car. All that changed though when I blew it up last year and now I find myself replacing everything that was on my car, but that's not a bad thing. I mean I made the decision back when I bought the 165's that I wasn't going to do anything else and if I hadn't blown it up I know I wouldn't have either. Plus I had a combo that IMO was maximized for what I had. I'm a firm believer in not making sacrifices when it comes to parts selection if you truely want a car that performs above the norm. If you piece it together with mismatched parts or build a 302 with parts that you someday hope to put on a 347 you can't expect it to drive, feel, and run like a 302 setup with parts designed to maximize those cubes. (cough VELOCITY cough)
im seriously considering not doing at 306 now and just calling up DSS, Keith Black or ???? and get a 331 shortblock. i know alot of you guys say that the 185s are ok for a 306 with the right combo but it almost seems to me that if i do a 331 then i wont have to worry about it so much. the more cubes should suit that head better. my main concern is if i go that route is getting the pistons notched or getting them with enough relief in them to run my TFS stage 2 cam......and then put it together and end up not having enough clearance. what would happen then.....notch them in the engine or disassemble??
what can i get a 331 shortblock for.....$2200 - $2600 ? higher / lower?
wheres the best place to order from?
another thing: DSS makes their own pistons right? ....im not sure i like that
what can i get a 331 shortblock for.....$2200 - $2600 ? higher / lower?
wheres the best place to order from?
another thing: DSS makes their own pistons right? ....im not sure i like that
special thanks to Methodical for going to the trouble of posting those emails to and from Ed. much appreciated
also thank to Killercanary, mootang, Grn92LX and Green 94 5.0 . you guys seems to help and have input when i post.
feel free to toss more advice my way...
also thank to Killercanary, mootang, Grn92LX and Green 94 5.0 . you guys seems to help and have input when i post.
feel free to toss more advice my way...
Methodical
Active Member
fiveoho said:im seriously considering not doing at 306 now and just calling up DSS, Keith Black or ???? and get a 331 shortblock. i know alot of you guys say that the 185s are ok for a 306 with the right combo but it almost seems to me that if i do a 331 then i wont have to worry about it so much. the more cubes should suit that head better. my main concern is if i go that route is getting the pistons notched or getting them with enough relief in them to run my TFS stage 2 cam......and then put it together and end up not having enough clearance. what would happen then.....notch them in the engine or disassemble??
what can i get a 331 shortblock for.....$2200 - $2600 ? higher / lower?
wheres the best place to order from?
another thing: DSS makes their own pistons right? ....im not sure i like that
Try CHP
Methodical
Active Member
I think most aftermarket short blocks are 28oz but I would think you should be able to specify what you want. Honestly your best bet is probably to call DSS and chp and tell them what you need and see what they recomend and how much it will cost you. compare what they both tell you and compare prices and go from there. they are the experts and i'm sure they can help pick out a good short block.
fiveoho said:i know exactly what you are saying. no sense in doing things twice. but like i said, gotta look at the financial perspective of it too. i just got off the phone with Jason at AFR while ago and mid way thru out convo, we got disconnected. couldnt get ahold of him after that so i will try tomorrow. he said the 185s arent bad for a 306...a little big. he wasnt satisfied with my cam choice. we were talking about that when we lost connection. i called back and got another guy and we talked for a few minutes. he on the other hand said he thought i had a good combo chosen, cam and all. so that right there just goes to show you. 2 different opinions from the company that makes the head!!!!
im calling back tomorrow and see what more Jason has to say.
thanks for all your input man
Hey guys, figured I would drop in my 2 cents….
Fiveoho, it was good talking to you, call me back anytime.
The other person you spoke to was Scott, he is right and I agree that you have a good combo. Until you mentioned the fact you only wanted to turn 55-5600RPM, at which point with that cam I doubt you would have even seen peak power yet. Especially when considering the rest of that combo you certainly wouldn't be using the better part of the "Curve".
I am ok with the decision to run the 185's on a 306, there are quite a few guys that have run them on 302's after notching pistons and 306's without almost any complaint of the fabled "No power" down low. I am sure most will agree your power curve, drivability, MPH, and ET are all because of your COMBINATION, not because you bolted on 1 part. So with that said, why would someone look at only one part to effectively "Kill" the combination? I do feel that you should have gotten 165's, but does it make the difference in the world? No. Are you still going to have great power either way? Yes.
Not for nothing, but you wont know which is better until you have the opportunity to use them on the same set-up back-to-back, which is probably why we don't get complaints on the larger head small motor set-up, the owners didn't have anything to compare it to except stock.
You have a great combo, just not for what you were going for.
Give me a call or drop me an e-mail if you have any further questions, Jason Dow
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