ford come back
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Rock36
Member
I think Ford probably conceptually understands what needs to be done strategically, but I believe their execution is lacking. Which is why I think we are talking about smaller issues.
The basic formula for a successful high volume car is simply a reliable quality car, with attractive styling, for a reasonable price. That isn't rocket science, but its the execution of this principle that is the real challenge.
The Ford Taurus was an excellent example of this, it was all of the above. The original Taurus had an attractive style at the time it was first released. And Ford still has the F-150 which, as far as I know, is still the best selling vehicle in the United States.
Someone mentioned it earlier, but the Ford Five Hundred does look like a rental car, and it could definitely benefit from some style.
Back to some of those Euro models. The Ford Ka has excellent gas mileage. I believe it has around 45 mpg on the freeway. In Europe it is advertised as 5Liters/100km. Either way that is in the neighborhood of Hybrid vehicles. The problem is that there are issues with it meeting safety requirements of the department of transportation. Which seems messed up since the Ford Ka can be found on Germany's autobahn, an arguably more dangerous environment.
I guess FoMoCo in the US may need to embrace tiny engines like the Ka, Puma, and Fiesta again. Then again the horsepower wars are still hot, and a 1.3L engine producing 110hp may not attract anyone.
The basic formula for a successful high volume car is simply a reliable quality car, with attractive styling, for a reasonable price. That isn't rocket science, but its the execution of this principle that is the real challenge.
The Ford Taurus was an excellent example of this, it was all of the above. The original Taurus had an attractive style at the time it was first released. And Ford still has the F-150 which, as far as I know, is still the best selling vehicle in the United States.
Someone mentioned it earlier, but the Ford Five Hundred does look like a rental car, and it could definitely benefit from some style.
Back to some of those Euro models. The Ford Ka has excellent gas mileage. I believe it has around 45 mpg on the freeway. In Europe it is advertised as 5Liters/100km. Either way that is in the neighborhood of Hybrid vehicles. The problem is that there are issues with it meeting safety requirements of the department of transportation. Which seems messed up since the Ford Ka can be found on Germany's autobahn, an arguably more dangerous environment.
I guess FoMoCo in the US may need to embrace tiny engines like the Ka, Puma, and Fiesta again. Then again the horsepower wars are still hot, and a 1.3L engine producing 110hp may not attract anyone.
Rock36
Member
I think the extended powertrain warranty was a step in the right direction. But I wish it would have been 5 year/60K miles for total bumper-to-bumper coverage and not just the powertrain.
From what I glean from talking to people who've recently bought cars, they tend to partially equate quality with length of warranty. The exception being Hyundai and Kai. If Ford can bring the entire warranty program up with the manufacturers that have a "quality build" reputation, I think that would help.
In addition, they need to keep making the Mustang and offer some real limited-edition models. The GT/CS is really nothing more than a little cosmetics in my opinion (this is not a slam to any GT/CS owners out there). Hopefully a Boss or Mach 1 will come out with not only some graphics changes but some extra HP/TQ and maybe some suspension and handling mods.
From what I glean from talking to people who've recently bought cars, they tend to partially equate quality with length of warranty. The exception being Hyundai and Kai. If Ford can bring the entire warranty program up with the manufacturers that have a "quality build" reputation, I think that would help.
In addition, they need to keep making the Mustang and offer some real limited-edition models. The GT/CS is really nothing more than a little cosmetics in my opinion (this is not a slam to any GT/CS owners out there). Hopefully a Boss or Mach 1 will come out with not only some graphics changes but some extra HP/TQ and maybe some suspension and handling mods.
anthony05gt
Active Member
The unions have destoyed industry in this country. They hold the management hostage for deals that are ridiculous. Why should some jackass on an assembly line with no skill other than bitching and bolting a battery in make more money than an experienced private sector technician who could fix just about anything that comes his way. I could see if the private sector guys were making substantially more money for comparable skills, but that's just not the case. You can't blame the health care costs for stupid decisions made by management who are being held hostage by the unions. I've done many a job for union outfits that don't want me there because I work circles around the lazy whiners who couldn't fix their junk without a guy from my company. I've got friends that work as forklift mechanics at GM and they can't even begin removing an engine until a union electrician comes to disconnect the battery when he's damn good and ready. Until the electrician gets there, the mechanic sits on his rump.
If you are a union member I see why you are happy and that's ok, you are benefitting from the way things are. More power to you.
If you are a union member I see why you are happy and that's ok, you are benefitting from the way things are. More power to you.
Ford needs some creative thinkers. Dodge was almost dead and now offers some of the hottest-looking cars out there.
I've read that more than $2,000 of each vehicle sold goes to pay benefits for retired Ford workers.
That's great for the workers but not for the buyers.
Ford employees can easily make $50,000 a year. It's difficult for people making half that to buy the cars that are built.
I've read that more than $2,000 of each vehicle sold goes to pay benefits for retired Ford workers.
That's great for the workers but not for the buyers.
Ford employees can easily make $50,000 a year. It's difficult for people making half that to buy the cars that are built.
ok well taken,so a bunch of Chinese non union get the jobs and make fords instead of nike running shoes,what then makes Ford different than GM or any other car company that almost has to follow the same course to stay afloat....the passion of making great affordable cars?
SVTdriver
Founding Member
anthony05gt said:
While I have worked for unions and non-union shops. And have no real preference. You are right and wrong. Yes SOME union workers are worthless. And would never continue to work at a non-union shop. But there are other people who do great work for the union. One example of a battery installer does not make a case for bad union employees. Management is rarely ever held hostage by unions. The employer can hire replacement temporary employees (And often do in some business lines). And no union can make a company agree to a contract that will drive them out of business. If the company is TRULY going under due to things in the union contract. The company can and sometimes gets concessions. As it is far better to lose some benefits than become unemployed. If you haven't watched the news. When most union/company contracts are being negotiated. One of the largest concerns is healthcare costs. It is a simple reality that healthcare costs are through the roof. With no real point of stopping. Which means everyone has to pay more for coverage. Which means they need to either have higher wages. Or get the company to pay more towards healthcare. Either way good things have come from unions (As well as some bad). But in some cases a union is a neccessary "evil". The garbage company I worked for. If it had not had a union to hold them in check. They would have gotten rid of every employee. And found people who would do the job for minimum wage. But do you really want someone being paid minimum wage driving a heavy vehicle around streets your family may walk on? I've seen some of the non-union drivers. And while very little frightens me. They do.
Rock36
Member
SVTdriver said:
Interesting read. I once read a statement that jokingly referred to American car companies as health care providers which dabble in cars on the side. I guess that is a truer statement than some would like to admit. Some kind of healthcare relief/reform whatever would go along way for Ford and GM.
But healthcare needs to be provided. A well paid job with benifits like healthcare attracts a higher caliber of worker. Like SVTdriver said we don't wan't minimum wage laborers building our cars.
Schlitz-420
New Member
anthony05gt said:
Are you or have you ever been a union member? It would appear you have not. I was President of my local for two years and I know what I am talking about.
Some unions (GM,Ford...UAW) have negotiated astonishingly high wages for the type of labor they are performing:
"As part of its 1999 split from GM, Delphi is locked into the same contract covering pay, benefits and job and income security -- at an annual cost of nearly $130,000 per worker"
That is like $62.50 per hour, that is insane....There is no way they can stay competitive when Toyota, Honda and others pay their American employees from $15-$25/hr (plus about $15-$20 in benefits) and are making money. This situation clearly has gotten out of control and both the union and mgmt. are equally to blame for this. Many of this state's residents have no pity for the auto workers losing their jobs because they were simply making too much cash for the work performed. Obviously we do not want min wage employees making our cars but someone making $15 and up can likely do a fine job.
Having said that unions are responsible for making your working environment as hospitable as it is today. Child labor (stopped), work hours, paid leave, safety and a plethora of other benefits have become standard due to unions. The only thing a union does is try to protect the employee from getting screwed by their employer. Do not think the employee can hold the employer over a barrel or as a "hostage". In my state (MI, home of UAW) it is illegal to strike until after you have reached a certain point (failure through arbitration) and then the employer can have scabs on the payroll waiting to fill your shoes. You then have 90 days to work things out or you can be fired.
Healthcare is definitely the sticking point. My union has been working without a contract for three years and we are about to finally settle a contract that will go through 09, and the only issue not settled before the old contract expired was healthcare. We received (after a long fight) a 1.5% increase in pay each year and we are now paying for a portion of our healthcare, so in essence we did not really get a cost of living raise, we actually took a pay cut. I will shut up now but before you slam unions in general you ought to do your homework. I have friends that work for GM and they get drunk, coked up, and blown in the parking lot over their 1-2 hour lunch each day. They can just quit coming to work, get fired, then claim they are an alcoholic and get their job back after a short treatment program, paid for by GM of course. There are guys that come to work each day and sleep in lawn chairs then go home, not unlike the Sopranos construction jobs. There are problems with unions, but they are not the norm, they are an anomaly.
well said,and i agree on many of those claims,I worked the line and couldn't believe what went on..but thats a whole nother story,if nba teams that can afford the best players get the best teams..does that mean toyota with its big cash flow is going to out hire and crush the competition,or is Ford going to turn into a cinderella team and beat the odds?
Gorilla68
New Member
problems for all US automakers:
unions choking industry.
management too slow to adapt and react to marketplace due to bloated upper mangement. decisions are made at glacial speed. public perception: japs making more reliable cars. germans are better engineers.
my personal take on it: many US autos seem cheap in the aesthetics and tactile featueres of their vehicles. I sat in an H2 recently, the interior was so cheap plastic looking I would have felt ripped off had i bought the vehicle at the money they wanted for it. I also had a rental vehicle recently, chevy malibu. interior config was unattractive and not functional. it seemed as if it were made by playskool. save for a few overpriced sporty models, or slightly overpriced but cool cars like the stangs, the US cars on the whole seem crappy, flimsy and poorly engineered. I had a 2000 chevy blazer on a 3 year lease. babied the truck. it was falling apart as i was driving it by the third year. the heater core went bad at 31000 miles for christ's sake!
unions choking industry.
management too slow to adapt and react to marketplace due to bloated upper mangement. decisions are made at glacial speed. public perception: japs making more reliable cars. germans are better engineers.
my personal take on it: many US autos seem cheap in the aesthetics and tactile featueres of their vehicles. I sat in an H2 recently, the interior was so cheap plastic looking I would have felt ripped off had i bought the vehicle at the money they wanted for it. I also had a rental vehicle recently, chevy malibu. interior config was unattractive and not functional. it seemed as if it were made by playskool. save for a few overpriced sporty models, or slightly overpriced but cool cars like the stangs, the US cars on the whole seem crappy, flimsy and poorly engineered. I had a 2000 chevy blazer on a 3 year lease. babied the truck. it was falling apart as i was driving it by the third year. the heater core went bad at 31000 miles for christ's sake!
Gorilla68
New Member
Solutions (AKA - My rant):
reduce number of offerings and eliminate redundancies.
too many types of vehicles saturate the marketplace. make fewer types of vehicles and make them well.
example - why have a lincoln navigator AND a ford expidition? it's all the same company. make one, make it well.
design is on the upswing as evidenced by the stangs, the chrysler 300, the crossfire, and the challenger. lets keep it going guys! even old people and poor people want to have nice looking cars!
for all automakers - WHY is there a 10 grand difference between the base model and the super deluxe? this seems ludicrous to me.
personal pet peeve: STOP MAKING MINIVANS! PLEASE!
you have kids? let's have the old wood paneled station wagons again like the good old days with no seatbelts!
Hire industrial designers who get the concept of "cool".
razr phone: cool. Ipod : Cool. why do you not have an army of these people reworking your line?
change public perception: this is the hardest one. nothing makes a bad product fail faster than good advertising. right now, the US automakers have neither.
VW hired crispin porter bogusky. they did the the unpimp your ride, the s**t happens and the low ego emissions spots as well as the print and web media. it is some of the most disruptive work I have seen for automakers in years. these are the same guys, incidentally, who handled MINI for a few years and brought about the US push, as well as the creepy burger king spots. love or hate - you do remember them.
the current campaigns for ALL US automakers are weak and unmemorable. None of them have entered the public consciousness and inspired imagination. if I see that frankenstein headed american idol guy singing about ford again i am cancelling my order for a GT. that's the best they can do? PATHETIC!!!! (you might have guessed by now, I work in advertising)
US automakers need that disruptive kind of thinking AND the product to back it up.
to sum it up, make fewer types of cars, make them better and go out on a limb to advertise them. this country was built on innovative thinking and people willing to take chances. we're letting those people down.
reduce number of offerings and eliminate redundancies.
too many types of vehicles saturate the marketplace. make fewer types of vehicles and make them well.
example - why have a lincoln navigator AND a ford expidition? it's all the same company. make one, make it well.
design is on the upswing as evidenced by the stangs, the chrysler 300, the crossfire, and the challenger. lets keep it going guys! even old people and poor people want to have nice looking cars!
for all automakers - WHY is there a 10 grand difference between the base model and the super deluxe? this seems ludicrous to me.
personal pet peeve: STOP MAKING MINIVANS! PLEASE!
you have kids? let's have the old wood paneled station wagons again like the good old days with no seatbelts!
Hire industrial designers who get the concept of "cool".
razr phone: cool. Ipod : Cool. why do you not have an army of these people reworking your line?
change public perception: this is the hardest one. nothing makes a bad product fail faster than good advertising. right now, the US automakers have neither.
VW hired crispin porter bogusky. they did the the unpimp your ride, the s**t happens and the low ego emissions spots as well as the print and web media. it is some of the most disruptive work I have seen for automakers in years. these are the same guys, incidentally, who handled MINI for a few years and brought about the US push, as well as the creepy burger king spots. love or hate - you do remember them.
the current campaigns for ALL US automakers are weak and unmemorable. None of them have entered the public consciousness and inspired imagination. if I see that frankenstein headed american idol guy singing about ford again i am cancelling my order for a GT. that's the best they can do? PATHETIC!!!! (you might have guessed by now, I work in advertising)
US automakers need that disruptive kind of thinking AND the product to back it up.
to sum it up, make fewer types of cars, make them better and go out on a limb to advertise them. this country was built on innovative thinking and people willing to take chances. we're letting those people down.
Schlitz-420
New Member
Gorilla68 said:
I beg to differ:
Unions are not choking industry, management is.........
Not to mention certain people think management does not like to move jobs overseas, anyone who believes that is a fool. It is all bottom line to mgmt. as it would be for any of us if we were in charge. They do not care how their decisions affect the common worker as long as the stock price goes up as does their inflated pay.
Mustangs are not overpriced, lets see you find another car like the GT500 for the money (i mean sticker, not this $20K over crap), not to mention i think my GT was priced very well. What do you think they should charge for a GT? Is the V6 not inexpensive enough for you? i think a Mustang starting at $19,995 is a fine deal. Find a V6 charger for that, good luck.
On the Blazer you should have known they sucked before you got one, they have been junk since they came out with the small one over ten years ago.
anthony05gt
Active Member
I don't claim to know everything about unions. I just know what I've experienced. I just can't see unskilled workers making the kind of money they do. I've also put up with a lot of BS dealing with these guys. What I've dealt with is ridiculous.
blacksheep06
New Member
- Jan 31, 2006
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stanmckinney said:
Name oneJ/K The challenger is going to be sweet, but personally I just don't like anything Dodge has done since the RAM redesign several years ago.
SVTdriver
Founding Member
blacksheep06 said:
J/K The challenger is going to be sweet, but personally I just don't like anything Dodge has done since the RAM redesign several years ago.
While you personally may not like anything since the ram. Many people are buying the 300, magnum, charger, etc.
APowers
New Member
The bottom line is that dodge autos may look cool, have cool names, and there are a lot of them on the road. Take the crossfire, dashes that are fake, stickers that peal off the first time they get hot, its not real wood guys. The prowler, if I see one more 4.2L turbo that is rated like 90hp, I am gonna lose it.
The bottom line is if you have a 500 or below beacon score, then dodge will finance. Ford and GM will not, gotta be 650 or above. Say what you will, quality, performance, ect. I think this is why most people buy a dodge. Not by preference, but because they cant affort true quality.
The bottom line is if you have a 500 or below beacon score, then dodge will finance. Ford and GM will not, gotta be 650 or above. Say what you will, quality, performance, ect. I think this is why most people buy a dodge. Not by preference, but because they cant affort true quality.
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