Transmission Choices: AOD or C4 reverse Manual

[Chris H]

I need to decide what trans to choose. I recently went through two brand new TCI Streetfighter C4s and their engineers told me the clutches where burning up (less than 200 miles on each so they are refunding my cash this week).

I need some input from yall. I contacted a local, well known, C4 builder and he said he could set me up with a C4 reverse Manual valve body for ~$1800 installed with custom TQ converter (All Performance Automatic Trans parts rated at 1000 hp). I like the idea, that this trans, will be bulletproof and on a warranty from a local guy. I need your input whether you like this idea.

Second I've been thinking about converting to an AOD to make use of the OD.

Before getting asked, I will be doing both Hwy and town driving. I'm not worried about the gas consumption but would like to cruise at lower RPMs if possible. Basically I want your pros and cons of each since the decision will be made this week. I'm probably just like evetyone else where I want the best of both worlds, tire spinning, hitting second while cruising at lower RPMs

My engine Specs are below and I have a brand new 3.55 posi 3rd member 8" rear.


Thanks for any and all help guys, I definitely need it this time!
-Chris

TuffDawg Engines
302 CID 328hp @ 5000rpm and 337ft lbs of torque @ 4000rpm. This engine has a semi-rough idle with enough cam to give it that muscle car sound but is still mild enough to be reliable for that everyday driver or restoration project. This engine works best with a mild 2200 stall speed converter if being used with an automatic transmission. This engine runs on leaded or unleaded premium pump fuel.
The balanced rotating assembly (typically includes crankshaft, pistons, rings, connecting rods, rod bearings, and balancer) featured in this engine:
· 3.000" stroke nodular iron crank
· 5.090" forged rods with ARP rod bolts
· 9 to 1 compression pistons
More special features of this engine include:
· New CompCams Hydraulic flat tappet cam with .509"Int/512"Exh valve lift
· Heads have 3-angle valve job with bowls blended & hump in exhaust port removed for better flow
· Both heads have been resurfaced to ensure a good long lasting seal
· New 1.940"Int/1.600"Exh swirl polished stainless valves with undercut stems to improve flow
· New 1.6 roller tip rocker arms with balls and nuts
· New Oversize pistons and rings
· New Hardened push rods for use with guide plates
· New Heavy duty double row timing set
· New High volume oil pump
· New Edelbrock Performer RPM dual plane aluminum intake manifold

 

[68converted]

Well, I am all for the AOD. Unless you are trying keep an original look. I had a killer AOD built for that same price. Actually it was $1,650. $1800 sounds very high for a rebuilt C4, unless your case is the only thing that is used. And, if you are planning to get 1000 hp, nothing is bullet proof. If you don't plan on getting 1000 hp, it is best to have a trans built for the specific application. Just some thoughts from someone who has gone with the C4 and AOD.

On the other hand, if you go with the built AOD, you will have to add a new balance plate, redo your driveshaft for the AOD yoke and length, run new trans lines or find adapters for the AOD fitting (they are larger), and "adjust" your shift linkage or go with a new cable setup. Depends on the cash you want to spend for a cruzing speed of 65 and RPM's at 1800. Thoughts.... just thoughts.

 

[Chris H]

Thanks for the input 68converted.

I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of spending a little more on the AOD now or stick with the C4 (I also need to find someone local who can do the AOD work!)
Does the extra money that you spend in the conversion worth it and do you have the reliability of the built C4? Another question is the reverse Valve body. Since I only plan to race at the track once in a blue moon, is this approach overkill? So many questions

 

[10secgoal]

I don't think the motor you have should burn up that C-4 in all honesty. Unless it is weaker than the 450hp rated one I'm thinking of. Build your own is my advice. Very simple trannies. I don't see the point of a reverse manual for your app either. Especially with a stock shifter. Get a rebuild kit from Jay @ Broader Performance. If your making less than 500 hp, it'll last damn near forever.

 

[allcarfan]

$1800 for a C4 and converter? - what are the specs?

 

[Chris H]

$1800 for a C4 and converter? - what are the specs?

Same that are in the Performance Automatic Super Comp C4. The builder buys the parts directly through PA.

-Reverse Manual Valve Body, Pro Shift Servo, Deep Aluminum Pan
-Alto Red Racing Clutches, Pro Pump, Power Planetary
-Hardened Input Shaft, Kevlar Band

Not sure of the specs on the converter other than its built by a shop up the street from the trans builder (2200-2400 stall).

 

[Chris H]

I don't think the motor you have should burn up that C-4 in all honesty. Unless it is weaker than the 450hp rated one I'm thinking of. Build your own is my advice. Very simple trannies. I don't see the point of a reverse manual for your app either. Especially with a stock shifter. Get a rebuild kit from Jay @ Broader Performance. If your making less than 500 hp, it'll last damn near forever.

The reason I'm even considering the reverse manual was due to the fact that I burned up two brand new TCI Streetfighter trans with 200 miles. I sent them back twice and the guys at TCI said the clutches were burning up and they decide to give my money back (no fault was given to the install). Nice customer service just bad product.

The local tranny guy does many Reverse manual C4s so I think he's just giving me the standard race opinion that a reverse manual will not care whether enough vacuum is present (but I agree probably not right for what I use the car for).
I just spoke with Performance Automatic in Gaithersburg, MD today and they said their SuperStreeter trans (C4 up to 450 hp) should be ok as long as the cam has less than .550 lift as far as vacuum is concerned. Mine is .512/.508.

 

[66forfun]

I have the PA 450 hp AOD and a windstar aluminum driveshaft in the garage right now along with most all of the tidbits ready to install over thanksgiving. I hope the trans lasts forever like PA states. I picked up the B&M trans cooler http://store.summitracing.com/partd...400004+4294924500+4294888847+115&autoview=sku, 20,500 btu, the biggest polished alumium one they have...hopefully no burnt clutches for me! 380's or 411's is what i'm pondering, oooh how I need a ride in a NA/AOD/411 stang to help push me in that direction....

 

[allcarfan]

A performance C4 has less than $700 in parts...and thats for nearly the best money can buy (depending on valve body). The converter should cost no more than $300. So, is this guy charging you a good chunk of change to build it.

I had an AOD built to ART CARR specs (yes, we were given the 'blueprints' of an art carr aod) and it cost us $500 in parts, not including the valve body. Id assume the C$ is a lot cheaper.

 

[302 coupe]

a stock C4 would handle that engine just fine, TCI just sucks that bad. They used to have a decent reputation, but things took a dive about 5 or 6 years ago. All you need is a good quality rebuild ($200 for premium parts, then add labor), nothing fancy, throw in a shift kit if you like, and a quality 2500 or so stall converter (no TCI or GER junk, lol). Go to www.bulkpart.com to see just how cheap C4 parts are.

 

[washMO66]

I have the PA Super Comp rev manual w/ brake. So far so good.

I like having the warranty piece of mind but I didn't like the coin I had to spend to buy it.

 

[10secgoal]

Chris, are you absolutely positive the linkage as adjusted correctly ? 302 coupe pretty much nailed it. I beat up on a stock AAMCO rebuild with nitrous for quite a while before I lost third gear.

 

[65mistress]

Ok, stupid question, what do you gain with a reverse manual C4?

 

[thehueypilot]

Ok, stupid question, what do you gain with a reverse manual C4?

It's used in racing to allow the shift pattern to come straight down from 1st. Where your current "D" is will now be 1st and 2nd will still be 2nd but where "1" is will be third. Mine is that way and I use it with a racheting shifter but only for racing and with an aftermarket shifter. Its easier to pull down (with the "G's" as opposed to agaisnt the "G's") than push up during a race. I would go with a built AOD if you are going to cruise a lot.

 

[truck90278]

Definetly suggest the AOD. With the HP you have, you should not have burned up the C4. An AOD can be built without any problems and aid in the reduced RPMs when cruising. You can get the following items from Ron Morris Performance or Mustang Plus to make the swap easy for yourself or a shop.

1. Transmission mount
2. Shifting kit to adopt the stock Mustang C4 shifter to the AOD
3. harness for the Neutral Saftey switch to adopt to your current harness

We are currently running a 347" with about 350HP with an AOD with a shift kit and a 3.55 TT 8". Works great. Another advantage to the AOD is typically that the overdrive automatics have a lower 1st gear which will bring you out of the hole faster.

 

[washMO66]

It's used in racing to allow the shift pattern to come straight down from 1st. Where your current "D" is will now be 1st and 2nd will still be 2nd but where "1" is will be third. Mine is that way and I use it with a racheting shifter but only for racing and with an aftermarket shifter. Its easier to pull down (with the "G's" as opposed to agaisnt the "G's") than push up during a race. I would go with a built AOD if you are going to cruise a lot.

Unless you have a shifter like mine which all the way back is park, then reverse, then N then 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

I have a precision performance shifter rear cable exit so I am pushing forward through the gears which is what I prefer.