New Heads/Cam or Nitrous???

[95strokerPSU]

My current set-up is as follows...

Stock block 331 Stroker with flat-top pistons
Edelbrock Performer Heads (10.5:1 compression)
Edelbrock Performer Intake
Crower 15511 cam with 1:7 rockers
65mm FRPP TB
75mm Pro-M cal. 24lb/hr

It was SCT tuned and put down 300hp and 350ft/lb to the wheels. Using the rule of thumb 1rwhp for every ci, I should be putting down more power.

So my first quesiton is what's holding me back? The heads? The cam? The intake? or all of the above?

Second question, what should I do? Should buy new heads? Port these heads? New cam? Port the intake? or should I just get 100 shot of nitrous with supporting fuel upgrades and be done with it?

The car is 99% street driven so I like having low to mid range power. Here's a link to my dyno chart.

Discuss

 

[AUcobra94]

The intake is probably holding you back a little. Dont get new head just port the ones you have. As far as the intake goes you can port it or get a performer rpm or a trickflow trackheat. I just put a trackheat on my car and it didnt hurt my bottom end at all and it pulls to 6000 rpms now. Since you have a stroker you shouldnt lose any bottom end. Hope that helps.

 

[Guero]

Are you going to do the porting yourself? If so do that and the N2O.

 

[Black95GTS]

An RPM II would work well here IMO. With the 4.10s you have the right gear for higher RPMs, might as well make use of it. The performer's long runners are hurting you, look how early your HP noses over.

You could also retard the cam a couple degrees.

Might need to step up to 30s with more HP. You would definately need to step up to at least 30s, maybe 36s with a dry shot.

Adam

 

[ProKiller]

get a 75mm TB for starters. that will help. what size intake valves are on the heads. the performers have two different sizes, either 1.60 or 1.90. you may have the smaller ones and they don't flow as good. (i have the smaller ones). the intake you have is holding you back on the top end. maybe step up to the performer RPM 2. don't know if you have long tubes or not, but they would help.

you could step up to the 30# injectors like was discussed in your previous thread. get the maf recalibrated.

 

[BlackVert]

i don't know much about the eddy heads, or the cam, but i can say you should be able to push 350+ NA at the wheels with a 331 and still be streetable.

most likely, the cam is the place where you would see the most difference.

in any case, i have some o-ringed and professionally ported iron windsor senior heads sitting in my basement from my aborted 331 build up. the guy who sold them to me said they have 3 runs on them since the valve job and new springs went on. i paid $700 shipped for them. pm me if you are interested in them ...

 

[final5-0]

I went and looked at your pull

I gotta go with the stuff Adam said about how early you peak

Its only 5100 that bad boy stroker can't breath up top

Not sure but ... is that the baby Crower cam

Is this a case of 302 parts on a stroker

My gut feeling is you need more flow and I would consider these things and in this priority

30's
Upper intake
Cam
ProM 80 meter
70-75 mm tb ... IMHO ...I'd hold off and do this last

btw ... no mention of exhaust in sig ... whats up with that

Grady

 

[95strokerPSU]

Is this a case of 302 parts on a stroker

I think you'd be exactly right! I'll say it again...I wish I had found this site before I did my build.:SNSign:

I'm heavily leaning towards getting more power N/A.

The heads are the 60379 (1.90/1.60 int/ex). I really don't want to have pay to port the heads or get new ones. And I have full long tube o/r exhaust. So here are my thoughts so for are....

-FTI PS3 spring upgrade
-FTI cam
-Tmoss ported upper and lower (I would get the RPM II but I have 80+ hours into polishing my upper and $100+ into powdercoating the lower)
-Swap in the 30lb injectors
-75mm Accufab Tb (fox style swap)
-Recalibrate my 75mm bullet (I've heard the 77mm and 80mm are a lot better but is it worth the money to upgrade?)
-Retune and dyno

Anyone think I can hit 330rwhp with those changes and still maintain a similiar torque curve while opening up the top end?

 

[Therian]

First thing I would do is get that intake ported nicely (since you put all that work into it). I would do this before doing anything else, except possibly MAF and 30-36lb injectors (depending on if you want NO2). Keep in mind you'd need a tune whenever you step up to the injectors.

I'm thinking a ported intake might give you the power you want without doing much else.

 

[bimmertech]

fox lake trick flow track heat heads
custom cam
ported lower--see fox lake or tmoss
rpm upper

that is what i would do.

 

[final5-0]

I think you'd be exactly right! I'll say it again...I wish I had found this site before I did my build.:SNSign:

I'm heavily leaning towards getting more power N/A.

The heads are the 60379 (1.90/1.60 int/ex). I really don't want to have pay to port the heads or get new ones. And I have full long tube o/r exhaust. So here are my thoughts so for are....

-FTI PS3 spring upgrade
-FTI cam
-Tmoss ported upper and lower (I would get the RPM II but I have 80+ hours into polishing my upper and $100+ into powdercoating the lower)
-Swap in the 30lb injectors
I-75mm Accufab Tb (fox style swap)
-Recalibrate my 75mm bullet (I've heard the 77mm and 80mm are a lot better but is it worth the money to upgrade?)
-Retune and dyno

Anyone think I can hit 330rwhp with those changes and still maintain a similiar torque curve while opening up the top end?

Well

A good thing about a cam from Ed is you get the benefit of his knowledge

Do like I did and take advantage of it for ALL it is worth
which IMHO
Is worth a whole Lot

I know the street intake is so fine lookin and all
but
The shorter runners would be more suited for the stroker

At least, get opinions from Ed and Tom about porting it

I'd move away from the bullet maf

Yes ...... the 77 or 80 is that much better
and
You could always do the lightning meter as well

If money is tight .............
I'd put money on the better maf before a larger tb

I'm not saying you won't find gain with a larger tb
I am saying the maf is more important IMHO
Besides ... the gain is gonna be mostly peak anyway

I can understand about the heads ..............
Just see what Ed's got to say

Good to see you got LT's

Just a thought or two more

Grady

 

[Killercanary]

The very first thing I would do is swap the upper for a typhoon polished upper. Its cheap and easy to find and will bolt right ontop of the edelbrock lower you already have. Do that first and see what the results are. I'd personally move to something like the RPM II or holley, but since you have so much work already done to your lower you might as well just get the typhoon.

Run this and see what the results are. If it is still nosing over up top, I'd first try and retard the cam a few degrees and see what happens. I don't know the specs on the cam you currently have, but if it's small and designed for a street operating range on a 302 I wouldn't even waste time re-degreeing it and I'd just swap it out for something designed more for the 331 you already have.

I don't know what to tell you about the heads. I think I'd address the intake and cam first and see if you get to a place that you are happy with power wise.

I agree on the injectors being too small, but I too will be pushing the little 24's for all they have this year. I hope to make a good bit more power than I used to with them. We shall see.

 

[BlackVert]

lol i happen to have a polished typhoon intake, also from my aborted 331 buildup.

 

[95strokerPSU]

The Typhoon is comparable to the Eddy RPM, right?

BlackVert let me talk to tmoss first but I might be interested in your intake.

 

[tmoss]

The ported Performer is a very good intake and it will conserve your hard work. I have a lot of them on 302-347s with up to AFR185 heads and the owners are very happy - some results are posted on my website in the photo galleries. The Performer upper will produce better average torque than the RPM upper, but either would work well. The extra 29ci is only 3.6 cubic inches more per cylinder - it's not a "big" stroker.

I had a customer dyno my ported lower with both a Performer uppr and an RPM upper - the results are in the graph below.

 

[final5-0]

As Always Mr. M

You put up good stuff

Grady

 

[Killercanary]

Tom, what is the highest RPM peak you've seen on a stroker using a performer intake? I'd think that it'd be done in the low 5000rpm range, even if ported. Am I wrong?

 

[Zero Signal]

You know if you can get your torque peak up to about 4500rpm, you'll be pushing around 350hp but your shift point will be more like 6500rpm. I think getting that peak number is probably held back by the cam with your combo. I wouldn't mess with a custom cam yet though. Find a good engine builder who knows those heads or get them flow benched. He'd be able to get you a perfect off-the-shelf match for what you want.

 

[TheRedBlur]

looks like you're hitting a flat spot at 4-5k, peaking out at 5400 rpms. That's a really, really low horsepower peak for a 331... I think your cam is too small, but then again, temper my statement with the fact that I love a lopey-too-large cam. but seriously, that cam doesen't have enough lift/duration for a 331.. not at the level that you desire. I'd recommend a cam in the 510-540 lift range (since we have roller cams, hell you could go deeper, I have .555/.565 in my 306!) The duration isn't too bad.. As far as the cam goes, you could make a lot more power without a cam swap, try retarding it by 2 degrees, check your pushrods, you might get some extra cam there if the geometry isn't right.

Cams aside, the intake is too small. From what I see, you have all the parts for a built 302/306, but it's not at 331 level. You should at least have a performer RPM, or RPMII manifold followed by a 70mm TB (best with an RPMII) The heads make up for in compression what they lack in flow. I say get some port matching done, minor bowl work and short side radius work, 3 angle valve job. or price that against a fresh set of heads after local assembly (most factory assembled alum. heads are cheap on hardware, good on castings).

I can't stress how important pushrod length and cam timing is. Not without talking waay to much. and I think I already have lol

I'm thinking this (based off of what I've learned, not brand loyalty)

Edelbrock 70mm TB (actually built by magnetti marelli, very good company)
Edelbrock Performer RPMII (wonderful intake, great base)
AFR165 heads (good compression, power, and fuel economy, you're more likely to meet emissions at power with these heads than any others, but don't buy them assembled, the valve guides suck and the rocker studs break! just go for bare castings).
Comp XE274HR cam (very aggressive profile, well suited to a 331. It's aggression is it's downfall, so far, I've gone through 3 rocker studs (non-ARP), 5 stock lifters, and two tie-bar lifters.)
I can't really help you on the injectors though all I know is that Bosch makes the best 23# injectors, the pintle design allows for a great spray pattern during full throttle. I think you're gonna need bigger injectors if you want your power to drop off at 6600 RPM instead of a measely 5400.

You should see steady gain across the board with these mods, given your current hardware, a 331 would feel a bit athsmatic.

 

[tmoss]

Tom, what is the highest RPM peak you've seen on a stroker using a performer intake? I'd think that it'd be done in the low 5000rpm range, even if ported. Am I wrong?

higher than that - more like 5,600-5,800 depending on cam and dispacement. His cam does need some more lift and duration for some extra power. He could retard the cam 2-4 degrees to see what that would net also.