degreeing cams?

[LaserRed01GT]

the bolts loosen up and the center walks causing ptv etc...my builder steenracing won't use them unless you insist. It is a flawed design...modcamponents makes a far superior product.

http://fidanza-is-crap.com/

Wrong. There NEVER was a design problem with Fidanza gears. You can post all the link to threads you want. I have personal experience with installing them and I have never had a problem, nor has any shop I know that has correctly installed them. I've talked to Fidanza and they decided to make the cam gears beefier, not because they had to by any means, but because people that shouldn't be anywhere near a motor were putting these on.

You can tell by your pics that the gear was sheared due to incorrect installtion. Did you use blue Loctite like you are supposed to?

You have the same mentality as the people that sue a business because they spilled hot coffee on themselves.

 

[LaserRed01GT]

My God there is some misinformation on this website. You guys are confusing degreeing a camshaft with finitely adjusting a camshaft after it has been degreed. Make no mistake about it, a camshaft MUST BE DEGREED! It's not an option, it's not if you feel like it or not, it's not "well a couple of guys said they don't degree their cams.", it's an absoltute necessity. BTW, if you guys have actually talked to people that have installed camshafts in motors without degreeing them, do not EVER take their advice on cars or engines ever ever again.

Crane Cam's explantion, and it's a good one:

The term "Degreeing In Your Camshaft" means you are making sure the camshaft's position in the engine coincides with that of the crankshaft, so that their rotation is synchronized. This is the only way you will know if the rise and fall of the pistons properly matches the opening and closing of the valves, so the engine will run properly. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically.

If the circumstances were perfect, one would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed. In reality, you are dealing with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets), all with their own standards and tolerances. If these tolerances stack up against you, it could throw you out of alignment. Without degreeing the cam you can never be sure that the parts are in correct position. If you have the tools and expertise, we always recommend that the camshaft's position in the engine be degreed in.

Is There More Than One Way to Degree a Cam, and Which is Better?

Currently there are two popular methods for degreeing a cam: the centerline method, and the duration at .050" lift method. We believe it is far better to degree the camshaft with either method than not to degree the cam at all; but of the two methods, the duration at .050" lift is much more accurate.

The main problem with the centerline method is it has you finding the theoretical centerline of the intake and/or exhaust lobe and line up on it. It makes the basic assumption that the lobe you are checking is symmetrical, with its opening side being the exact same shape and size as the closing side of the lobe. The truth is that most modern lobes are asymmetrical, with the opening side of the lobe being much more aggressive and the closing side being more gentle.

Therefore, when you attempt to locate the middle (or centerline) of the asymmetrical lobe there is an automatic error factor. It could be as little as 2? off or as much as 6?, depending on the exact lobe shape and the procedure used during the degreeing operation. Neither does it verify that the camshaft has been properly ground with the correct duration lobes, which can drastically affect performance. Since the duration at .050" lift method is not affected by the asymmetrical lobe design, we believe it is the more accurate way to degree.

 

['01 Steed]

Yep, Fidanza gears simply do not cut it. The fasteners used to secure the adjustment simply do not have enough bearing area and do not provide enough clamp force to do the job. I have no idea why they didn't use a larger fastener head. It looks to me like there's plenty of room for it.
This is a design flaw.

BTW, you can grind off the key on your stock gears and adjust from there. The key is only used for assembly aid at Romeo/Windsor. After the bolt is tightened, the key serves no purpose. It is NOT a stop. The monsterous bolt and washer provide all the clamp load needed to hold the gear in place.


LaserRed01GT knows what he's talking about!

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

Yep, Fidanza gears simply do not cut it. The fasteners used to secure the adjustment simply do not have enough bearing area and do not provide enough clamp force to do the job. I have no idea why they didn't use a larger fastener head. It looks to me like there's plenty of room for it.
This is a design flaw.

BTW, you can grind off the key on your stock gears and adjust from there. The key is only used for assembly aid at Romeo/Windsor. After the bolt is tightened, the key serves no purpose. It is NOT a stop. The monsterous bolt and washer provide all the clamp load needed to hold the gear in place.


LaserRed01GT knows what he's talking about!

We have never had any problems with them....in fact none of the hot rod guys that we know have ever had a problem with them. Maybe we are blessed, but I truly believe that the problem is operator error...no offense to anyone and I mean that. It takes a serious force to shear a billet gear like that. Whenever you are installing a bolt of any kind that is part of the valvetrain....you want to always use at least the blue heavy duty Loctite....red in drivetrain bolts. You would be surprised I think, at how many people do not properly install valvtrain components.

 

[hotmustang331]

My God there is some misinformation on this website. You guys are confusing degreeing a camshaft with finitely adjusting a camshaft after it has been degreed. Make no mistake about it, a camshaft MUST BE DEGREED! It's not an option, it's not if you feel like it or not, it's not "well a couple of guys said they don't degree their cams.", it's an absoltute necessity. BTW, if you guys have actually talked to people that have installed camshafts in motors without degreeing them, do not EVER take their advice on cars or engines ever ever again.

Crane Cam's explantion, and it's a good one:

The term "Degreeing In Your Camshaft" means you are making sure the camshaft's position in the engine coincides with that of the crankshaft, so that their rotation is synchronized. This is the only way you will know if the rise and fall of the pistons properly matches the opening and closing of the valves, so the engine will run properly. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically.

If the circumstances were perfect, one would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed. In reality, you are dealing with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets), all with their own standards and tolerances. If these tolerances stack up against you, it could throw you out of alignment. Without degreeing the cam you can never be sure that the parts are in correct position. If you have the tools and expertise, we always recommend that the camshaft's position in the engine be degreed in.

Is There More Than One Way to Degree a Cam, and Which is Better?

Currently there are two popular methods for degreeing a cam: the centerline method, and the duration at .050" lift method. We believe it is far better to degree the camshaft with either method than not to degree the cam at all; but of the two methods, the duration at .050" lift is much more accurate.

The main problem with the centerline method is it has you finding the theoretical centerline of the intake and/or exhaust lobe and line up on it. It makes the basic assumption that the lobe you are checking is symmetrical, with its opening side being the exact same shape and size as the closing side of the lobe. The truth is that most modern lobes are asymmetrical, with the opening side of the lobe being much more aggressive and the closing side being more gentle.

Therefore, when you attempt to locate the middle (or centerline) of the asymmetrical lobe there is an automatic error factor. It could be as little as 2? off or as much as 6?, depending on the exact lobe shape and the procedure used during the degreeing operation. Neither does it verify that the camshaft has been properly ground with the correct duration lobes, which can drastically affect performance. Since the duration at .050" lift method is not affected by the asymmetrical lobe design, we believe it is the more accurate way to degree.

With ALL tolerences going to the "advanced" side of the entire engine operation, the engine STILL WILL NOT HAVE PTV CONTACT WITH VT STG 1 CAMS! This isnt just a couple of guys not degreeing their stg 1 cams....this is 95% of them. If you dont skip a tooth and install the cams straight up, you wont have any issues. End of story....you can quote general statements about how things work and put everyone in fear, but in reality its just not going to happen.

Iv had this debate before...guys spent hours searching ALL over the web to find SOMEONE who had PTV contact with properly installed VT's stg 1 cams. Guess what, they couldnt find one....then Scott, co owner of VT engines came in and backed up what I was saying. They recommend degreeing, just as I do...but they admit that there has been 0 cases of properly installed VT stg 1 cams having any issues whatsoever.

Look, I totally understand what your saying....but saying that noone should listen to my advice because I say you dont HAVE to degree the cams on THESE particular cams is rediculous. With all due respect, you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs.
Iv been around here a while, iv seen nurmous threads accross the web with guys installing them...you have your shop and a few guys you know. You have the correct mentality in the sence that you dont have any experiance with these cams and recommend to degree them...fine.
But dont diss me and the other people like that....you dont have the specific experiance required to make that call. You have your opinion...thats it.

Any other cams and im fully with you....degree them unless you want to run the risk of PTV. With 262s there have been no cases that I know of, but since I dont follow those nor do I have any experiance with them, im not going to say that "you absolutly have 0 chance of PTV wit these cams". Im also not going to diss someone who knows about them and claims that its not required. Ill just stick to my recommendation to degree them . Getting personal is uncalled for and wrong

 

[03ghoststang]

With ALL tolerences going to the "advanced" side of the entire engine operation, the engine STILL WILL NOT HAVE PTV CONTACT WITH VT STG 1 CAMS! This isnt just a couple of guys not degreeing their stg 1 cams....this is 95% of them. If you dont skip a tooth and install the cams straight up, you wont have any issues. End of story....you can quote general statements about how things work and put everyone in fear, but in reality its just not going to happen.

Iv had this debate before...guys spent hours searching ALL over the web to find SOMEONE who had PTV contact with properly installed VT's stg 1 cams. Guess what, they couldnt find one....then Scott, co owner of VT engines came in and backed up what I was saying. They recommend degreeing, just as I do...but they admit that there has been 0 cases of properly installed VT stg 1 cams having any issues whatsoever.

Look, I totally understand what your saying....but saying that noone should listen to my advice because I say you dont HAVE to degree the cams on THESE particular cams is rediculous. With all due respect, you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs.
Iv been around here a while, iv seen nurmous threads accross the web with guys installing them...you have your shop and a few guys you know. You have the correct mentality in the sence that you dont have any experiance with these cams and recommend to degree them...fine.
But dont diss me and the other people like that....you dont have the specific experiance required to make that call. You have your opinion...thats it.

Any other cams and im fully with you....degree them unless you want to run the risk of PTV. With 262s there have been no cases that I know of, but since I dont follow those nor do I have any experiance with them, im not going to say that "you absolutly have 0 chance of PTV wit these cams". Im also not going to diss someone who knows about them and claims that its not required. Ill just stick to my recommendation to degree them . Getting personal is uncalled for and wrong

i agree with hotmustang here.......even though it should be a good habit and 99.99% of the time is recommended to degree cams but most streetable ones if installed straight up without anything going wrong you wont have any PTV contact. But if you are going to do a motor with flat top pistons and cams with a huge lift and stuff like that then its required that you degree the cam and do the playdough/clay thing to see how many thousands clearance you have TDC with the valve open

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

With ALL tolerences going to the "advanced" side of the entire engine operation, the engine STILL WILL NOT HAVE PTV CONTACT WITH VT STG 1 CAMS! This isnt just a couple of guys not degreeing their stg 1 cams....this is 95% of them. If you dont skip a tooth and install the cams straight up, you wont have any issues. End of story....you can quote general statements about how things work and put everyone in fear, but in reality its just not going to happen.

Iv had this debate before...guys spent hours searching ALL over the web to find SOMEONE who had PTV contact with properly installed VT's stg 1 cams. Guess what, they couldnt find one....then Scott, co owner of VT engines came in and backed up what I was saying. They recommend degreeing, just as I do...but they admit that there has been 0 cases of properly installed VT stg 1 cams having any issues whatsoever.

Look, I totally understand what your saying....but saying that noone should listen to my advice because I say you dont HAVE to degree the cams on THESE particular cams is rediculous. With all due respect, you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to these cams and their specs.
Iv been around here a while, iv seen nurmous threads accross the web with guys installing them...you have your shop and a few guys you know. You have the correct mentality in the sence that you dont have any experiance with these cams and recommend to degree them...fine.
But dont diss me and the other people like that....you dont have the specific experiance required to make that call. You have your opinion...thats it.

Any other cams and im fully with you....degree them unless you want to run the risk of PTV. With 262s there have been no cases that I know of, but since I dont follow those nor do I have any experiance with them, im not going to say that "you absolutly have 0 chance of PTV wit these cams". Im also not going to diss someone who knows about them and claims that its not required. Ill just stick to my recommendation to degree them . Getting personal is uncalled for and wrong

Wow, I was just about to leave when I saw this. You are going to slammed on this tomorrow morning when Kevin reads this disrepectful nonsense you just posted. To say that Kevin doesn't have the experience in regards to camshafts is just plain ignorant and laughable to no end (I'm sure he will be happy to "kindly" explain to you in the morning).... by the way I wasn't aware that you knew Kevin, or I, personally, and were intimately aware of our backgrounds, experience, and technical education level. Don't be so naive.

Properly synchronizing the camshaft with the crankshaft is degreeing the camshaft...period. Whether you just line up some dots and toss in the cam or you get out the piston stop, dial indicator, and degree wheel and finitely "adjust" the camshaft, it's all degreeing. The term "degreeing" is commonly misused... and that's why you are clearly confused.

 

[hotmustang331]

I know exactly what hes talking about...being the combined tolerences of the engine parts....not specifically the cam gears. I wasnt trying to be dissrespectful....but he WAS dissrespectful to me. Saying that noone should listen to someone saying that a specific cam does REQUIRE degreeing (re ME).... is wrong.

I honestly dont care what he says, unless he says that he has installed VT stg 1 cams W/O degreeing them and they had PTV contact....because he will have the first known case. Anything else he says is his opinion and carries no weight. When he says that degreeing is required that means that the engine will have issues if its not degreed. Thats much too strong of a word because it wont happen. Like I said, I highly recommend it....but its not REQUIRED with these cams. Thats ALL im saying, and im not trying to discredit his knowledge, because he obviously has ALOT of it.
Just dont come on and act like you know EVERYTHING...thats what ticks me off.

 

[SaleenGT2001]

if you have some information feel free to share it with us. but DONT come on here and start ragging on members that have different was of doing things.

i dont know either one of you but you seem like a cocky ass hat to me!

 

[04YELLOWGT]

I asked VT about the Stage 2 Blower cams and he said I would not have PTV if they werent degreed. He said it is reccomended to get the full benfit of them but not required.

 

[hotmustang331]

There we have it Straight from VT .

LOL Saleen...you know me, im the one with the hocky mask .

 

[SaleenGT2001]

There we have it Straight from VT .

LOL Saleen...you know me, im the one with the hocky mask .

i wasnt refering to you as the ass hat, lol

i've been looking in al the closets in my house before i go to bed to make sure that nobody is coming to get me while i sleep
i wear this mask to scare away anyone that tries to mess with me
View attachment 410031

 

[SaleenGT2001]

or this one

i cant believe this is a tech post





this is waiting for me outside my window

 

['01 Steed]

... He said it is reccomended to get the full benfit of them but not required.

BINGO! I order to reap the full benefit, you should dial them in, which is to say they atleast degree'd them. Sure, you may get lucky. Hell, I did first time around.

Look people, bottom line is; there has never been ONE case of PTV contact reported from a properly installed set of cams. Period. End of discussion.
Now, I'm sure that given 20 minutes, I could post links to countless threads all across the internet where people have had PTV contact because they DIDN'T degree their cams!

The fact is, any cam with a profile that is more aggressive than the stockers should be set up correctly. The factory checks no longer apply once you step out of the range of the factory specs. I've done PTV stacks, and I know how close the factory specs are. Just don't do it.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

There we have it Straight from VT

I figured that would end this argument. Thanks for the advice though guys. The engine and cams should be here in the next week or two and in my car within another week or two. So Ill have new numbers in about a month.

One question though, should I get like a base/mail order tune for the first 1000 miles I put on it before I get it dyno tuned or will it be alright with the tune thats on it?

 

[DropTopPony]

Wrong. There NEVER was a design problem with Fidanza gears. You can post all the link to threads you want. I have personal experience with installing them and I have never had a problem, nor has any shop I know that has correctly installed them. I've talked to Fidanza and they decided to make the cam gears beefier, not because they had to by any means, but because people that shouldn't be anywhere near a motor were putting these on.

You can tell by your pics that the gear was sheared due to incorrect installtion. Did you use blue Loctite like you are supposed to?

You have the same mentality as the people that sue a business because they spilled hot coffee on themselves.

How are you telling me wrong their is no design flaw? Go to MD , Brandon Aslept has stated it happened to them on their dyno. I guess they don't do things right there? The cam bolts can't handle the load and the gear center walks. That sure sounds like a piss poor design to me. I know you and your friend are sitting in your shop laughing because your trying to ruffle feathers with your ignorance and infinate wisdom but your just wrong here.
But you know it all and we are just here to amuse you so it doesn't really matter what any of us say now does it because you will just refute it and argue.

 

[hotmustang331]

i wasnt refering to you as the ass hat, lol

i've been looking in al the closets in my house before i go to bed to make sure that nobody is coming to get me while i sleep
i wear this mask to scare away anyone that tries to mess with me
View attachment 410023

*slaps head* I didnt think you were calling me that haha...but I thought I was included in "I dont know either one of them part haha" . Took that wrong I guess.

Loving the masks . Beats teh Jason mask You must have mad tyte google skillz

 

[hotmustang331]

I figured that would end this argument. Thanks for the advice though guys. The engine and cams should be here in the next week or two and in my car within another week or two. So Ill have new numbers in about a month.

One question though, should I get like a base/mail order tune for the first 1000 miles I put on it before I get it dyno tuned or will it be alright with the tune thats on it?

Im very glad you did this. I hate arguing like that...although I do like a good debate, I think it could get ugly fast.

Im pretty sure that Tim will not mail you a tune for a blown car so you cant blame him if the engine blows (which is smart) if you were thinking about asking him
Maybe you can get a base tune from someone else...sounds like a good idea to me JUST so you can drive it (no boost) .

To be safe, PM rhonda @ MPH and ask them what they think.
Hey, even this Fast eddie 41 guy in this thread should be able to help....I think hes a tuner. Doesnt hurt to get a few opinions

 

[LaserRed01GT]

Once again, and I'm sure it still won't sink in , degreeing camshafts simply means getting the timing (VE timing) of the camshaft synchronized with the rotation of the crankshaft. You DO NOT have to break out the dial inidicator and degree wheel for that to be considered "degreeing" a cam. You CANNOT just expect the magic camshaft fairy to come down and sprinkle magic dust on the engine so that the cranshaft keyway is at 12 o'clock and that the crank sprocket and timing chain timing marks at least line up.

We put a degree wheel on every single camshaft that we install. People that bring me cars want their motors done right. Degreeing a camshaft with a degree wheel eliminates any tolerance abnomalities or wear in the timing chains, cam gears, tensioaners, and sprockets. Additionally when people have their heads milled (even just .010" on an aluminum mod head) it will place additional slack in the chain. All of this can be especially exacerbated dut to the fact that these have two cams. Additionally degreeing the camshafts optimizes the way they will perform and it makes tuning the motor much more precise and efficient because you I have verfied with a dial indicator the gross lift, IVO point, and IVC point.

hot mustang331, I wasn't aware that you knew Matt or myself personally. How is it that you presume to know what my experience is with these mod motors or motors in general. BTW, what professional technical certifications do you hold, how many times have you installed camshafts in these mod motors, what is the extent of your technical bacground?

 

[Fast Eddie 41]

Once again, and I'm sure it still won't sink in , degreeing camshafts simply means getting the timing (VE timing) of the camshaft synchronized with the rotation of the crankshaft. You DO NOT have to break out the dial inidicator and degree wheel for that to be considered "degreeing" a cam. You CANNOT just expect the magic camshaft fairy to come down and sprinkle magic dust on the engine so that the cranshaft keyway is at 12 o'clock and that the crank sprocket and timing chain timing marks at least line up.

We put a degree wheel on every single camshaft that we install. People that bring me cars want their motors done right. Degreeing a camshaft with a degree wheel eliminates any tolerance abnomalities or wear in the timing chains, cam gears, tensioaners, and sprockets. Additionally when people have their heads milled (even just .010" on an aluminum mod head) it will place additional slack in the chain. All of this can be especially exacerbated dut to the fact that these have two cams. Additionally degreeing the camshafts optimizes the way they will perform and it makes tuning the motor much more precise and efficient because you I have verfied with a dial indicator the gross lift, IVO point, and IVC point.

hot mustang331, I wasn't aware that you knew Matt or myself personally. How is it that you presume to know what my experience is with these mod motors or motors in general. BTW, what professional technical certifications do you hold, how many times have you installed camshafts in these mod motors, what is the extent of your technical bacground?

Word....that is what they say right?!