at crossroads on 5.0 swap - need advice

[whatagearhead]

Hello All,

My son (my70stang) and I are in the process of a 5.0L/5spd swap into his original 6 banger '70 coupe. We have already converted to an 8" rear end and converted the brakes with a Master Power brake kit.

We located a donor car with a 5 spd (manual) and a 5.0L EFI motor. The milage on the motor is unknown. If need be we will freshen up the block and get the heads done. Someone tried to steal it and messsed up the wiring under the dash/steering column, but the CPU is there, wired in, and appears OK, and the motor and wiring under the hood is all good (no damage). I started stripping the donor car ('89 LX conv. 5.0) today, and even have some good extra parts for the swap meet. I figure I did good to get the car for $400.

My dilemma is whether to try and do the EFI wiring into the '70, or just swap out the EFI unit for a carb setup. There are pros and cons for both directions. I am very comfortable with most jobs on cars and have done just about everything myself at one time or another, but this EFI wiring is looking a little scary to me. I don't want his car to be down for months while I try and figure it out. I have studied multiple websites on the topic and know I have options like the Painless Wiring kit (PRF-60510) for just under $500.

I guess I'm looking for advice from folks that have gone either direction. If I decide to do the EFI, which is the best harness to use? I'm not sure I want to try to use (alter) the stock Mustang harness.

If I decide to go with a carb setup, can I use the distributor/ignition that is from the '89 Mustang donor car? What would the best manifold/carb setup be for a driver (mostly stock) 5.0? Is their a way to keep the serpentine system while eliminating the smog pump? Any other advice? This seems like the most straight forward swap of my 2 options.

Thanks in advance for any help you offer - Tom

 

[D.Hearne]

You'll need another distributor for a carb swap. The new one will also need a steel cam gear on the shaft to match the steel roller cam in the 5.0. There are lots of choices for this, I used a rebuilt points distributor I had on hand then switched the cam gear (new steel gear from Ford Racing bought thru Summit $45) I replaced the points with a Pertronix unit, then topped it with a small to large cap adapter (you can buy these with the dist.cap at your local parts house) and used Ford Racing 9mm wires ($40 from Summit) Here's a list of good carb intakes: Edelbrock Performer RPM, Weiand Stealth, Ford Racing A321, Edelbrock's older F4B. These all work well with the roller 5.0, from idle to 6500 rpms, despite what the catalogs say. I have the Ford A321 on a roller 5.0. Then you'll need a carb, limit this to no larger than a 600 cfm, vacuum secondaries are preferred for fuel ecomony, you can tune the secondaries to open sooner if you want. You'll also need to swap the timing cover to one that's got the fuel pump boss drilled and tapped if yours isn't, you'll need the eccentric too on the front of the cam timing gear to drive it. Otherwise you'll need an electric pump setup as you will with the EFI, but you'll want a low pressure pump (4-7 psi & 30 or so gal/per hour are all a carb needs)

 

[whatagearhead]

You'll need another distributor for a carb swap. The new one will also need a steel cam gear on the shaft to match the steel roller cam in the 5.0. There are lots of choices for this, I used a rebuilt points distributor I had on hand then switched the cam gear (new steel gear from Ford Racing bought thru Summit $45) I replaced the points with a Pertronix unit, then topped it with a small to large cap adapter (you can buy these with the dist.cap at your local parts house) and used Ford Racing 9mm wires ($40 from Summit) Here's a list of good carb intakes: Edelbrock Performer RPM, Weiand Stealth, Ford Racing A321, Edelbrock's older F4B. These all work well with the roller 5.0, from idle to 6500 rpms, despite what the catalogs say. I have the Ford A321 on a roller 5.0. Then you'll need a carb, limit this to no larger than a 600 cfm, vacuum secondaries are preferred for fuel ecomony, you can tune the secondaries to open sooner if you want. You'll also need to swap the timing cover to one that's got the fuel pump boss drilled and tapped if yours isn't, you'll need the eccentric too on the front of the cam timing gear to drive it. Otherwise you'll need an electric pump setup as you will with the EFI, but you'll want a low pressure pump (4-7 psi & 30 or so gal/per hour are all a carb needs)

Thanks, looks like great advice. Evidently you decided against the EFI conversion. I went to a little local car show this AM here in Chandler. Lots of early mustangs, but none with an EFI conversion. I must admit, the old tech still looks better to me.

I see a nice Edelbrock combo at summit with a performer and 600CFM carb. I like the looks of the new endurashine finish - does it hold up? Any reason to not eliminate the EGR?

I am looking at distributors, hard to tell wich ones have the steel cam gear but I appreciate the heads-up on the requirement. I will likely go with an electric fuel pump - good advice on the pressure.

 

[D.Hearne]

The motor I did the carb swap to was on my 89 V8 Ranger. Accel and others make drop in distributors for around $200-250 for what you need, but you can piece together one like I did for at least $50 less. Depends on how comfortable you are with the gear swap. It's not hard to do, but you do need to pay close attention to the instructions. As for using the Performer (not the RPM) intake, that I don't recommend, it's nothing but an aluminum copy of the stock Ford 4 bbl intakes. You can buy 83-85 4bbl Ford 5.0 HO intakes for $50 and have the same thing. You don't need the EGR passage unless your state requires it. The intakes I recommended work the same on the bottom end as the Performer, Action Plus, etc., but give it a little boost on top and allow for future mods. Also recommend a regulator between an electric pump and carb regardless of the pump. If somehow the pressure off the pump spikes, the regulator will prevent the pressure from overcoming the float in the carb. It'll need an emergency kill(impact) switch too for safety in collisions

 

[whatagearhead]

The motor I did the carb swap to was on my 89 V8 Ranger. Accel and others make drop in distributors for around $200-250 for what you need, but you can piece together one like I did for at least $50 less. Depends on how comfortable you are with the gear swap. It's not hard to do, but you do need to pay close attention to the instructions. As for using the Performer (not the RPM) intake, that I don't recommend, it's nothing but an aluminum copy of the stock Ford 4 bbl intakes. You can buy 83-85 4bbl Ford 5.0 HO intakes for $50 and have the same thing. You don't need the EGR passage unless your state requires it. The intakes I recommended work the same on the bottom end as the Performer, Action Plus, etc., but give it a little boost on top and allow for future mods. Also recommend a regulator between an electric pump and carb regardless of the pump. If somehow the pressure off the pump spikes, the regulator will prevent the pressure from overcoming the float in the carb. It'll need an emergency kill(impact) switch too for safety in collisions

Great, thanks again for the advice. Wow, what did we all do without the internet? It would have taken me a week or two to get this kind of advice

 

[68EFIvert]

I did and EFI conversion and used a harness from fordfuelinjection.com. It was a really easy conversion, at least the wiring. The fuel lines and fuel system was the most challenging to me. Not hard just took some time to decide how to run it in my convertible. The harness removes all the unnecessary wiring and installed in less than an hour. It actually took me longer to make a mount for the computer under the dash. I like the look and reliability of fuel injection. This was my first engine project and had no experience with cars before doing this. Talk about jumping off the deep end of the pool. The harness was slightly more than painless but seemed to be much easier to install and it was prewraped. Oh yea, my car started on the first try.

 

[D.Hearne]

I looked at a 77 Comet today that basically had what I've described to you here under it's hood. 89 5.0 roller motor from a Mustang, Performer RPM intake, the timing cover and front dress swapped from the 77 motor, along with the Duraspark distributor, I'll have to remember to ask him about the gear on it, I doubt he changed it. Gonna go back and pick it off him tomorrow for $600 You could also go the Duraspark route too, the distributor you want was O.E. on the 85 Stangs. Just the Duraspark requires more wiring than the swap modules for points distributors.

 

[whatagearhead]

I did and EFI conversion and used a harness from fordfuelinjection.com. It was a really easy conversion, at least the wiring. The fuel lines and fuel system was the most challenging to me. Not hard just took some time to decide how to run it in my convertible. The harness removes all the unnecessary wiring and installed in less than an hour. It actually took me longer to make a mount for the computer under the dash. I like the look and reliability of fuel injection. This was my first engine project and had no experience with cars before doing this. Talk about jumping off the deep end of the pool. The harness was slightly more than painless but seemed to be much easier to install and it was prewraped. Oh yea, my car started on the first try.

Wow, that's impressive, how much did the harness run you? Good instructions?

 

[Tubo(2-bo)]

If your really interested in how to do an EFI install check out what I believe to be the most compleat EFI into classic Mustang pages. James W has done a great job of not only doccumenting his install, but has also gathered an extensive library of reference web pages. Literally everything you'd need to know.

http://www.midnightdsigns.com/Mustang/Engine.htm
As previously noted using a fordfuelinjection.com harness is the easiest way to go.

 

[whatagearhead]

If your really interested in how to do an EFI install check out what I believe to be the most compleat EFI into classic Mustang pages. James W has done a great job of not only doccumenting his install, but has also gathered an extensive library of reference web pages. Literally everything you'd need to know.

http://www.midnightdsigns.com/Mustang/Engine.htm
As previously noted using a fordfuelinjection.com harness is the easiest way to go.

Thanks, I'll check it out!!!

 

[bnickel]

don't forget the double sump oil pan from the 5.0 donor car won't work in the early stang, you'll need a front sump pan that will work in the 70 chassis. also the ehaust headers (manifolds) from the donor car won't work either so you'll also need a set of headers or stock cast iron manifolds for an early 302 in the mustang chassis.

more stuff to consider:

the stock clutch linkage for the 70 won't bolt up to the late model block as the late block doesn't have the pivot ball provision, you can buy a pivot ball adapter that bolts to the back of the block so you can use the stock linkage or you could go with a cable clutch setup from someplace like www.moderndriveline.com, i'm not aware of anyone else that has a cable clutch conversion for the 69/70 mustangs, maybe kiesler but i haven't checked them. you'll also need a trans crossmember for the t5 and probably a different driveshaft as well. you'll either have to rewire the car for the neutral saftey switch/backup lights or buy a conversion harness for that as well


personally, i'd got the carbureted route and use the motorsport A-321 intake which is identical to the 65-67 shelby GT-350 intakes just without the shelby lettering. i'd use the 85 mustang GT 5.0 duraspark dizzy and run an MSD ignition box instead of the duraspark module, i'd even use a tock small distributor cap and an MSD blaster coil painted to look like a stock Ford "yellow top" coil, use a stock autolite 4100 carb and hi-po 289 air cleaner with some cobra valve covers and a set of tri-y headers to give the engine that classic look but much better performance than you'd ever get from a stock 289. that's just my 2 cents and you can take any or all of that advice and mix and match to suit your needs.

 

[whatagearhead]

Thanks bnickel, good advice. Yeah I knew I would have to go with exhaust made for the '70 w/ a 302 (vs. stock) and have to move to the front sump oil pan. I was wondering about the trans crossmember - you answered that question. It sounds as though the Ford intake is the way to go if I use a carb. I appreciate all the great advice and comments!!! Keep 'em comin'!!!

 

[JamesW]

Thanks Tubo....

I've got a whole series of pages on EFI on my website. I hope they are helpful in your decisions. Tubo can answer any of your questions too. His fastback is awesome.

http://www.midnightdsigns.com/james

 

[whatagearhead]

JamesW - awesome site - lots of very detailed info, thank you!!!

 

[68EFIvert]

Wow, that's impressive, how much did the harness run you? Good instructions?

I think I paid about $540 including shipping. It took about a month to get the harness. The instructions are great. You can see the instructions on the website. fordfuelinjection.com and go to the product section. It made the conversion easy and it even has the wiring for AC which is an option on many conversion harnesses. I started to take apart the donor car harness and got overwhelmed. I would do it again without hesitation. He even has instructions on how to read trouble codes. Check out the website. There is enough info there you could do your own harness from scratch.

 

[347Fastback]

I am very close to cranking my 5.0 EFI conversion, James thanks for the fuel lines and fittings...

 

[JamesW]

Hey

Hey!!.... how many boards are you hanging out on!

Were you able to use those braided lines?

 

[whatagearhead]

Well, my son and I talked it over and decided to go old school. We'll start shopping for carbs and manifolds now, along with the other parts we need. Call me chicken, but I still like the old carb setups.

We had a great day of wrenching together today. We pulled out the 5.0 motor and the trans. Everything looks real clean. The motor looks exceptional under the intake with no sludge or anything - as clean as it could be. The motor is now on a stand in the garage, the trans, bellhousing, etc is all separated and ready for cleaning.

I put the car on craigs list before we started this morning and by the time we finished dinner tonight I already had a guy wanting the rest of the donor car. He came out and bought it and towed it home already. We owned the donor for 48 hrs total, got the engine, trans, all accessories, etc.. and I kept the power buckets for my '38 Dodge biz coupe street rod project. At the and of the day it cost us only $150 and our time to pull the parts off the car. Not bad!!!

Thanks again for all the advice!!!

Here's some pics of our day - that is my son (my70stang) in a couple of the pics - he is becoming quite the gear head!!!:

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[Rusty67]

I have used the modern drive line cable kit and cross member. I will say that the cross member for the trans is really nice and went in perfectly. The clutch cable kit is another story but I think it has more to do with my car being retarded then their product having any issues.

If you are concerend about the length of down time for the car, I would recomend that you just stick with a carb. Basically as soon as the motor is installed in the car and the trans is all bolted up, you can start it up and see it go. With EFI you are going to have to do a lot to it and the car is going to sit for significantly longer. What I would consider doing is using a stock Ford carbed setup for now and save the EFI conversion for later. That way you can enjoy the car and get ready to make the EFI conversion as short as possible.

 

[66Runt]

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