Can't advance timing! Hits t-stat housing?

[TheBocSez]

Assuming your balancer has not spun at all,

bring the engine to TDC on the balancer

Remove the distributor cap.

If the rotor is pointing at the #1 terminal on the cap, you are at TDC of the compression stroke. If its pointing 180* off, you are at TDC on the exhaust stroke.
You want to be on the compression stroke.

Remove the distributor from the block. Becareful when doing this so the oil pump driveshaft dosent get stuck in the bottom of the distributor.

Adjust the distributor position so that you have more adjustability and stab it back in the block.

Rotate the distributor so that the rotor is pointing at the #1 terminal on the cap and then advance it just a little. Tighten it down, secure the cap, and place plugs back on in correct firing order.

Start car. and set timing.

 

[Danman765432]

I just skimmed through and I was just wondering what type of shape your Harmonic Balancer is in? When I just changed mine, my old balancer said it was at 10 but with my new one I was at 16 so your could maybe be off the other way...

 

[Skoobie]

There are a few different ways to set your TDC. I prefer to pull the #1 plug and stick a dowel into the hole. Rotate your crank until you've reached the top of your stroke (the dowel will raise and begin to fall again). You are at TDC now. Replace your plug and then stab your distributor as stated earlier. Its pretty easy


::EDIT:: Or you can follow TBS's more accurate discription

 

[bloopbloob]

ok... this seems more complicated than i originally thought!! sorry for all the newbie questions! so how do i rotate the crank? just roll the car in gear????? i'm guessing theres a much better way to do this!??????

 

[HISSIN50]

ok... this seems more complicated than i originally thought!! sorry for all the newbie questions! so how do i rotate the crank? just roll the car in gear????? i'm guessing theres a much better way to do this!??????

You can put it in 5th gear and push the car - that works well. But it's much easier to use a breaker bar on the crank bolt (and more precise). In my youth I'd use the push method and I looked like a cartoon character at time - pushing the car back and forth to get it aligned just right.

I will say that if you have your timing light, you dont need to get all anal about this. I very seldom run an engine to TDC and do all that dance. I mark the dizzy (where I'm at now), yank it and restab. You're going to get it real close like this - then just use the timing light to fine-tune things.

If you somehow got way off track during the restab, you can rotate the dizzy while cranking the engine - it will find 'time' and start up.

Good luck.

 

[JChalfan]

This is all good info about restabbing the dizzy, and he definitely needs to do that...

But...

There is something else wrong if he is running 18 degrees of timing on 87 octane gas without any pinging.

I've heard that in reality, it's very uncommon for the outer ring of a balancer to slip, though I've heard rumors of it happening.

I guess the best thing would be to set the #1 piston to TDC and see where the timing pointer is aimed at. Of course that's difficult because anywhere right around TDC feels the same if you are just sticking a dowel in the plug hole, and makes it difficult to find exact TDC.

I dunno, those are just a couple thoughts. It seems like something else must be going on too.

 

[Ozrunner]

Some one please explain to me how you can be a tooth off?

As long as the #1 cyl is at TDC on the compression stroke, when you put the distributor in, it
can point ANYWHERE you want it to as long as you place the sparkplug wires in the correct firing order.

Put #1 piston at TDC.

Stab distributor in.

Line up center of rotor with spark plug terminal that you designate as the #1 terminal

Place wires in proper firing order.

Advance slightly.

Start it up and set timing.

Yes you can do this with any basic distributor but NOT the Ford TFI. You CANNOT put the wires to suit where ever the rotor is pointing.

Installing TFI Distributor 101

When you initially install the dizzy it has to be installed so that the rotor actually points to No1 on the cap at all times, BEFORE you adjust it a tad clockwise for advance etc. Now depending on your clearance issues it is possible you can have No1 either one tooth clockwise or counter clockwise from its normal position with the rotor still pointing to No1 on the cap, if you wish but thats about as far as you will be able to go.

Reason is.

Underneath the rotor are spark timing blades with slots in between etc but the No 1 blade is thinner than the others. Whenever you install the dizzy this small blade MUST line up with its leading edge in the middle of the trigger mechanism that is fixed on the outside edge of the dizzy at the same time the rotor is pointing to NO1 on the cap.

This smaller blade gives a different timed signal to the ECU to also advise the ECU its now at No1 so as to synchronise the injector firing order with the firing sequence, ie 13726548 etc.

The cap design means that unless it is installed when the rotor is pointing to the factory NO1 position on the cap at TDC, this small blade will be incorrectly positioned in the trigger mechanism.

This means whenever you install the dizzy with the rotor pointing to NO1 on the cap it will also always be correctly aligned for the injector firing order so Ford don't need to tell you anything different as they assume you will always do this and why they embossed No1 on the cap

If you are out the plugs will fire in their correct timing sequence but the injectors won't, so depending on how far you are out it might run like a pig or run ok with a few more rpms or more TIMING.

Hence why bloopboob probably finds he has to go to 18 degrees The injectors have probably fired too early and it needs advanced timing to get it to fire what little mixture is still available etc.

The easiest way to see what I am on about is to pull your cap and you will see the thinner blade. It's leading edge has to be in the middle of the trigger mechanism on the side of the dizzy when the rotor is pointing to No1 BEFORE you turn the dizzy clockwise to add some advance.

Some of you may pick up a few ponies if yours are set incorrectly.

Hope this helps.

 

[TheBocSez]

I have never heard of this before.

 

[JChalfan]

I have never heard of this before.

I had heard this before, and it makes sense... Our 5.0's don't have a crank or cam position sensor, so somehow the computer needs to know the position of the cam to time the injectors correctly, and it does this through the distributor.

Jeff

 

[millhouse]

I had heard this before, and it makes sense... Our 5.0's don't have a crank or cam position sensor, so somehow the computer needs to know the position of the cam to time the injectors correctly, and it does this through the distributor.

Jeff

The point Ozrunner is making is you must use the spot on the dizzy cap marked #1 with the number one plug wire. The stator (pip) is mounted in the dizzy at that location which is what the computer gets it's signal from.

 

[Ozrunner]

.. Our 5.0's don't have a crank or cam position sensor, so somehow the computer needs to know the position of the cam to time the injectors correctly, and it does this through the distributor.

Exactly and thats the role of the thinner blade. It basically tells the ECU that cam timing, firing order etc is in line to also now fire the injectors in sequence etc etc.

If you install your distributor with the rotor always pointing to NO1 as marked on the cap, both will always be correctly timed in sequence.

 

[Mustang5L5]

Some one please explain to me how you can be a tooth off?

As long as the #1 cyl is at TDC on the compression stroke, when you put the distributor in, it
can point ANYWHERE you want it to as long as you place the sparkplug wires in the correct firing order.

Correct.


I think the "Tooth off" phrase more or less refers to the dizzy being stabbed in a location that will allow you to adjust in the correct timing range without hitting anything.

SO if you try to adjust to 14 degrees and hit the intake, you are a "tooth off" which means you need to restab the dizzy another tooth over to give you room.

But you are right, if nothing was in the way, you could just spin it all the way around until it was right

 

[Ozrunner]

Correct........

But you are right, if nothing was in the way, you could just spin it all the way around until it was right

They do say you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.

Mark, sorry dude but that is wrong information.

My scanners RS but here's some quotes from a Ford Factory EFI V8 Workshop Manual.

Signature Pip

The vane roters fitted to the MPEFI and SEFI distributors have one blade reduced in width.

The rotor is keyed to the distributor shaft with the narrow blade aligned with the ignition rotor. The ECU can recognise the modified pip signal called the signature pip from this blade and identify the camshaft position from it. This information is used to establish the injector firing timing.

and an excerpt re installing the TFI distributor

5. While installing the distributor continue rotating the rotor slightly so that the leading edge of the small blade is centered in the vane switch stator assembly.

6. Rotate distributor in block to align leading edge of vane and vane switch stator assembly. VERIFY that rotor is pointing at No 1 mark on distributor cap.

Got it.

So if you stab the distributor in anywhere other than with the rotor pointing at the No1 embossed on the cap this reduced blade will not be in the correct position in the stator, hence injector firing order will be out in relation to the plug firing order and cam timing.

I'm glad you guys don't work on my engine

 

[millhouse]

They do say you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink.

Mark, sorry dude but that is wrong information.

My scanners RS but here's some quotes from a Ford Factory EFI V8 Workshop Manual.

Signature Pip

The vane roters fitted to the MPEFI and SEFI distributors have one blade reduced in width.

The rotor is keyed to the distributor shaft with the narrow blade aligned with the ignition rotor. The ECU can recognise the modified pip signal called the signature pip from this blade and identify the camshaft position from it. This information is used to establish the injector firing timing.

and an excerpt re installing the TFI distributor

5. While installing the distributor continue rotating the rotor slightly so that the leading edge of the small blade is centered in the vane switch stator assembly.

6. Rotate distributor in block to align leading edge of vane and vane switch stator assembly. VERIFY that rotor is pointing at No 1 mark on distributor cap.

Got it.

So if you stab the distributor in anywhere other than with the rotor pointing at the No1 embossed on the cap this reduced blade will not be in the correct position in the stator, hence injector firing order will be out in relation to the plug firing order and cam timing.

I'm glad you guys don't work on my engine

I think were all on the same page here…but are just misunderstanding each other a bit.

What Mustang5L5 is saying is you can stab the dizzy on any tooth you like. The rotor will not be pointing at the same location…which is why you rotate the dizzy so it's aligned properly. The end result is the same timing with the tfi module clocked different (in relation to the engine) to gain clearance to the thermostat housing (or whatever else happens to be in the way).

 

[Ozrunner]

For sure if Mark did mean that but he did indicate this quote is "correct" and its not

Originally Posted by TheBocSez
Some one please explain to me how you can be a tooth off?

As long as the #1 cyl is at TDC on the compression stroke, when you put the distributor in, it
can point ANYWHERE you want it to as long as you place the sparkplug wires in the correct firing order.

It is not the same as what you or I are saying and what my original post was about , ie you move the spark plugs wires to another configuration to match the pointing of the rotor and you no longer have the correct alignment of the pip signal .

 

[JChalfan]

The confusion may arise from people having dealt with carbureted cars. If you have a carbureted car, there is no pip signal to worry about, and you can move plug wires around to get more dizzy clearance.

I think the main point is that on an injected 5.0, the #1 plug wire MUST be on the terminal on the cap marked #1, regardless of how the housing is clocked, or you will have issues.

Jeff

 

[Mustang5L5]

I What Mustang5L5 is saying is you can stab the dizzy on any tooth you like. The rotor will not be pointing at the same location…which is why you rotate the dizzy so it's aligned properly. The end result is the same timing with the tfi module clocked different (in relation to the engine) to gain clearance to the thermostat housing (or whatever else happens to be in the way).

That's what i meant to say.

 

[25thmustang]

Sounds off to me. I run 18 degrees (89 octane by the way, zero pinging, even at 20 degrees) and my dizzy is nowhere near the tstat?

 

[Black1987Stang]

You can put it in 5th gear and push the car - that works well. But it's much easier to use a breaker bar on the crank bolt (and more precise). In my youth I'd use the push method and I looked like a cartoon character at time - pushing the car back and forth to get it aligned just right.

I will say that if you have your timing light, you dont need to get all anal about this. I very seldom run an engine to TDC and do all that dance. I mark the dizzy (where I'm at now), yank it and restab. You're going to get it real close like this - then just use the timing light to fine-tune things.

If you somehow got way off track during the restab, you can rotate the dizzy while cranking the engine - it will find 'time' and start up.

Good luck.

lol, I can just see someone doing this, pushing the car an inch, looking under the hood, pushing it back an inch, rechecking it finding out he went past it, pushing the car an inch.....

Never actually tried it or think seen someone do it.I normally use a ratchet or if I have to jump the solenoid and let the starter crank the motor over and hope it stops somewhere right before the TDC. ill try that one of these days tho.

If anybody remembers when my car had 60+ degrees of timing one problem was I found out my balancer was spun 30 degrees , looked fine too, no wobble or anything....Heres what i would do if I were you! and what I did with mine!

STEP 1. Take out the #1 spark plug, lightly stuff a piece of paper towel or something in the hole. Crank the motor over direction of rotation until you see the towel pop out, or if you got someone else cranking it hold ur finger over the plug hole and you will hear the air trying to come out and come past ur finger. Now stick a nice long screwdriver down the hole till it hits the piston, keep turning it over and the screwdriver will rise up, up, and up, then while ur still turning, it's gonna stop for a moment, and then start coming down.....you want to get it at the moment where it's not going up nor down, hence TDC, Top Dead Center. I always stop while im turning the direction of rotation, so if you have any slack in your timing chain this will be more accurate with the rotor later on. NOW Look at where the timing pointer is on the balancer, it should be at the 0 mark. If it's not then you most likely have a spun balancer. Wherever it is, you can advance it 10 degrees from where it is and put the distributor so the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire, and make it so theres enough clearance to advance it more etc. I think there's at least a half-degree different margin within TRUE timing, if you ever took off the timing pointer it bolts to two studs and there is LOTS of slop in the holes with the studs (mine was anyway), soo that means it might not be the TRUE timing of what you are seeing, kinda like having a slipped balancer a little....only way to truly tell is do what I just said, set it to TDC and look at where its pointing, if it is pointing at the 0 mark then youre good, if not something is off. Hope this helps

 

[4G-KDMP]

maybe i missed it ..... but what are you using a a tiimimg reference the thing with the hole in it or the arm that looks like a pointer?