Do 2v 4.6's in the 96-98 have more HP potential than a 5.0?

[final5-0]

Grady, my combo doesn't hit 300ftlbs of TQ until 3500rpms, but it definitely doesn't lack anything down low.

I will try and find my mom's dyno graph from her 2001 bullitt. I drove numerous 2V GT's and her can feels SO MUCH stronger than any 2V I ever drove, modded or not. Bone stock with my ET streets I ran a 13.5 at 101 in it.

Yes Paul, I have heard the same!

I have a friend who has had many different mod motored Stangs.

He said he had more fun with his Bullitt than any of the others when talking about general driving around town.

He even said it would show his 99 Cobra its tail lights until the 4 cammer could get in its sweet spot which then was a different story all together.

Grady

 

[1slow95]

What was the differences between the Bullitt and the GT? I know the intake is different, are the cams different?


Also, I found this searching google. http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0503mm_ice/

 

[Pokageek]

We were talking 96-98 initially, not 01 and not bullet.

 

[1slow95]

We were talking 96-98 initially, not 01 and not bullet.

Well they're basically the same engine. I hear the 96-98 have a touch more compression, so there is more n/a power potential with those than the 99+.

Patriot Performance Stage II PI heads, cams, and Bullitt or aftermarket intake should get you close to 300-325RWHP depending on the cams.



A little OT here, but I just saw a thread on the corral today for a guy that's running mid 9's with a n/a DOHC 5.4. I know it had Ford GT heads and a carb, but I don't know any more details on it.

 

[WHITE94COBRA]

my 94 cobra spanks my 98 cobra...... stock for stock the 98 would walk it though.
the 2 valve motors arent as bad as some might think.

 

[blksn955.o]

Well they're basically the same engine. I hear the 96-98 have a touch more compression, so there is more n/a power potential with those than the 99+.

The 96-98 v. the 99+ were basicly the same. Other than the redesign in the heads, cams, and intake. The block and rods were the same the pistons were diff. IIRC the comp. change is from adding the PI (98+ actually put on trucks/vans a year before the mustang) heads with the flat top 96-98 pistons, stock for stock I am preatty sure the comp. was the same from 96-04 or real close. The H/C's/I is the biggie though.

I have always thought of it like this. Yes the OHC 2v is an ok motor and even moreso when you notice its only 281ci. For me though why go 2v when you have a 4v in many diff. configs. from 96+ (in the mustang at least). The 2v heads flow great...I mean no one really has come up with a better design other than some portwork other than ford in 98, but then again the 4v is still a better deal.

I still think its impressive that out of all the "big" companies Ford has been and is the only company that uses a SOHC or DOHC in EVERY v8 they make and in the volume they make them. That is cutting edge that will lead the way IMHO.

 

[BlackVert]

The results of a little Comparo

Grady

i entered the values approximately and did some analysis of these graphs, including "area under the curve" (AUC), which is essentially a sum of the average of every pair of adjacent points in the torque and horsepower curves.

grady: total AUC (tq): 10,625, total AUC (hp): 8,539, avg tq: 302, avg hp: 243

mod: total AUC (tq): 10,045, total AUC (hp): 8149, avg tq: 286, avg hp: 235

so grady's car has more total tq, more total hp, higher average tq, and higher average hp

so in this case, even though the mod motor actually produces more horsepower, i would say that grady's car would win fairly easily in a race.

 

[RAD]

Somebody have a dyno sheet of modular 5.4 with ported heads , cams etc.?

 

[Pokageek]

Good question..subscribing.. I wonder how it compares to say.. a 5.0 bored to 331?

 

[SuperDust22]

Really dyno #'s don't matter. Id like to see track times compared.

Dustin

 

[Engel]

i dont know why anyone would bother with sohc..


go 5.0/dohc or go home

 

[final5-0]

i dont know why anyone would bother with sohc..


go 5.0/dohc or go home

I don't care how many cams or valves they stuff in those mod motor heads

I'll stick to push rod technology for the low end torque of a NA combo :Word:

When I evaluate a dyno pull ........
I usually first look at the torque curve
Then I look for when it makes 300rwtq
Then I look for how flat the curve is

Having said that ..........
Look at the torque of this 3 valve

P A T H E T I C

The pull WITH the CAI just barely cracked 300rwtq
BUT
Not until 4300rpm

Hard Data that shows why .... They are so dead ... down low

Grady

http://www.cnlperformance.com/2005GT.html

 

[Pokageek]

Really dyno #'s don't matter. Id like to see track times compared.

Dustin

Depends on what floats yer boat. I am in Grady's camp where DRIVEABILITY is my goal. In my o - who gives a poop if a car runs 13.1 and mine runs 13.3 but I have power from 2500 up and your car (not yours but anyones) that runs 13.1 has no power until 4000rpm or so and can't idle at a red light. For me it is driveability on the street and power that's my definition of what makes a car worth driving.

[edit] As to why anyone would go sohc, simple the only real advantage I see is that the block can handle TWICE the power of a 5.0 if you are going for a real hi power application , blower or something.

[edit2] Oh and also if y'all are not sure what I am talking about..I used to drive a 5.7 LT1. I was used to that so when I bought the stang, I said 5.0? NP. I will make it MORE powerful than that 5.7. ANd ..it was....BUT it did not have it down low compared to the 5.7 ...even though stang would beat my 5.7 in the QM. It did not compare because the powerband was moved higher AND shorter than the 5.7 EVEN though it had a higher PEAK HP.

So that is what is meant by street driveability. Stomp it in 4th at...35...and it actually gets going. That's what I look for..Again , everyone is different and there is no right or wrong. I just dont want y'all to think that two engines making the same PEAK power OR Quarter Mile times = fun driveability. They don't.

 

[WHITE94COBRA]

Why is everyone getting sooooo off topic? The question was simple enough!!! The answer to the poster's question is yes the 2v 4.6 has more HP potential than the 5.0, (This is only limited by the block). Stock for stock, including internals, I believe the 5.0 has more potential, but both engines have crappy internals, if both were forged the 4.6 again has more power holding capacity because of the block. Now if you were asking aftermarket blocks, there are 5.0 blocks that will hold as much and even more power than the stock 4.6 block. I know the stock 2v 4.6 block capacity is in the neighborhood of 600 - 800 hp, (my numbers may be a tad high) and a 5.0 block is right around 500 - 650 hp (these are flywheel numbers) Aftermarket A4 blocks can hold around 800 - 1000 hp, and dart blocks about the same possibly more. Now if you look at the DOHC 4.6, I have seen properly built and boosted apps go as high as 1200 to 1300 hp.
I'm not sure who's car it was, it was a 1998 cobra, fully built bottom end and sleeved block (not sure on the overbore), running a twin turbo setup, made almost 1300 hp, this car also spun up to 9000 rpm's. It was on the dyno when I went to get my car retuned. It was the stock DOHC 4.6 block with obvious work. It sounded like it was going to take off around 6k rpm's.
Again the poster didnt ask for reliability, nor did he ask about driveability.

Pokageek i'm not picking on you at all, I was quoting your post only for how offtopic this got. I do agree with what you are saying on that topic

Depends on what floats yer boat. I am in Grady's camp where DRIVEABILITY is my goal. In my o - who gives a poop if a car runs 13.1 and mine runs 13.3 but I have power from 2500 up and your car (not yours but anyones) that runs 13.1 has no power until 4000rpm or so and can't idle at a red light. For me it is driveability on the street and power that's my definition of what makes a car worth driving.

[edit] As to why anyone would go sohc, simple the only real advantage I see is that the block can handle TWICE the power of a 5.0 if you are going for a real hi power application , blower or something.

[edit2] Oh and also if y'all are not sure what I am talking about..I used to drive a 5.7 LT1. I was used to that so when I bought the stang, I said 5.0? NP. I will make it MORE powerful than that 5.7. ANd ..it was....BUT it did not have it down low compared to the 5.7 ...even though stang would beat my 5.7 in the QM. It did not compare because the powerband was moved higher AND shorter than the 5.7 EVEN though it had a higher PEAK HP.

So that is what is meant by street driveability. Stomp it in 4th at...35...and it actually gets going. That's what I look for..Again , everyone is different and there is no right or wrong. I just dont want y'all to think that two engines making the same PEAK power OR Quarter Mile times = fun driveability. They don't.

 

[S351Saleen77]

I agree with the 5.0 and the torque vs 96-98 4.6's. The 5.0 feels much stronger because of the torque. Like Grady has shown the torque comes on much sooner and that makes it a more fun driving car.

Also with a 5.0 you can pick from how many aftermarket heads? How many choices with a 4.6?

I still want to get a 99-02 Saleen with a 4.6 but supercharged so it has lots of bottom end torque.

 

[ponypowa2]

I agree with the 5.0 and the torque vs 96-98 4.6's. The 5.0 feels much stronger because of the torque. Like Grady has shown the torque comes on much sooner and that makes it a more fun driving car.

Also with a 5.0 you can pick from how many aftermarket heads? How many choices with a 4.6?

I still want to get a 99-02 Saleen with a 4.6 but supercharged so it has lots of bottom end torque.

ot post of the day:


saleen what color is your car?

 

[5spd GT]

To the original question:

It took me close to 4,000 to get 300rwhp on my 5.0L.

It is taking me $350 dollars to get 250rwhp on my 4.6L. Doing 02 Heads/Cam/Intake in less than two weeks. That is DOING IT RIGHT. I'm useing all OEM gaskets and bolts. The heads, cam, intake had 41k on them.

PI headswap bumps compression to around 10.5:1 so that helps.

Now I just have to add some bolt-ons and hit 300rwhp with stock heads/intake.

I do not understand why everyone talks about how 4.6L parts are expensive. Some are still living in the past

Ported and Polished PI Aluminum heads have very comparable prices to AFR's and TW's on the 5.0L's.

Even the bolt-ons are similar in price.

My AFR's were $1,550 just for the heads.

Here is some 4.6L heads and prices, you can PI heads cheap! Off old crown vics, wrecked stangs...etc.

http://www.foxlakeracing.com/index....Modular 2 valve heads&category=Cylinder Heads

There cams do cost 2x more, but intakes cost at a starting price of $190. Try that with a 5.0L new

 

[5spd GT]

I agree with the 5.0 and the torque vs 96-98 4.6's. The 5.0 feels much stronger because of the torque. Like Grady has shown the torque comes on much sooner and that makes it a more fun driving car.

Also with a 5.0 you can pick from how many aftermarket heads? How many choices with a 4.6?
I still want to get a 99-02 Saleen with a 4.6 but supercharged so it has lots of bottom end torque.

I think there is 4 or 5 solid choices for the 4.6L. Fox Lake, VT, Steen, Sean Hyland, SVO, and a couple others if I recall.

So for the 5.0L, I remember AFR, TW's, Edelbrock, Holley, Ford Racing.

My math may be off...but you count the difference for me

4.6L blocks, even the 2v's are nice I had read where one of them went to 1400 or 1700hp...

 

[Pokageek]

Well,,..I think all of your comments are very helpful. As to being off topic, I should have done a better job at explaining what I mean by "potential." Potential to me means several factors including overall HP, driveability and tq down low, block capacity...I guess it is a working definition the more you learn. Thanks to everyone for your contributions.

 

[5spd GT]

Grady, my combo doesn't hit 300ftlbs of TQ until 3500rpms, but it definitely doesn't lack anything down low.

I will try and find my mom's dyno graph from her 2001 bullitt. I drove numerous 2V GT's and her can feels SO MUCH stronger than any 2V I ever drove, modded or not. Bone stock with my ET streets I ran a 13.5 at 101 in it.

101mph is the right mph for a Bullitt. Seen a couple pull 102 if I recall...

Many PI 2v's would hit very high 13's at 99-100 mph bone stock.

The Bullitt got a better intake than the typical PI 2v.

......................................

Grady, do you have a graph of a stock 5.0L. I would like to see that See how a stock 5.0L compares to a stock 4.6L.