Has anyone had problems with their PIP in the Distrubitor?

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Yep - it does happen. The PIP provides the computer with knowing cylinder displacement (where a given cylinder is). Without a PIP, no spark and no fuel injector pulsing occur. The FP will not run outside of the Prime-out.

The dizzy bushing can get sloppy, and take the PIP with it. Erratic stalling or no-start conditions are common when a PIP is on the outs.

Good luck.
 
Here goes nothing.

Ok my problem is the car is surging and bucking. What is happening is say your at 3k rpm. Well the stock tach drops like 500-to-750 rpm. and then goes back and forth like spark or something is cutting out. The car has plenty of fuel, so no problems there.

This is what I have replaced thus far, as I'm trying to track this nightmare down:

Parts I have replaced

• Ignition switch.
• TFI Module.
• EGR VALVE.
• EGR POST. SENSOR –Took the new one back not the problem.
• Power Battery Cable.
• Put the stock Coil back in.
• New Rotor.
• Cleaned the Cap with sandpaper.
• New O2 Sensors-Have long tubes on it.
• New Mass Air Meter-Pro M 95mm calibrated for 24lb injectors/ New AFM Power pipe.
• Tried a new computer- Mine is a A3M- Took the new one back not the problem.
• New Car Battery.
• Alternator is good- tested good at 13.9 volts.



Have not tried

• A new Distributor- to see if the electronics are bad inside it.
• The wires from the distributor or from the TFI Module, to the coil.
• Engine Grounds.
• Have not found any vacuum leaks.



Issues

• A/C is not blowing cold
• Something is draining the battery, if the car sits for more then 3 days car is dead.
• Car Is Bucking/ Surging at idle and while driving in any gear at any speed. The rpm is dropping on the factory tach anywhere from 250 rpm to as much as 750 rpm. When giving gas it acts as if the car is either pinging or the car is not getting spark. It will not let you fully get on it.
• Noise coming from front passenger side-maybe something suspension wise. Sounds like a clanging noise from the firewall or under the car.
• Car likes to overheat when sitting-Must be flex fan.- new electric fans on there way. Also Ordered the DC controller for the electric fans

I have had (3) mechanics look at this and now everyone is saying maybe it's the PIP in the distrubitor. Any ideas? has anyone had this problem before?
I'm located in Dallas Texas. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks to everyone.
 
These are the codes my car is throwing.

KOER

94

44

34

18


KOEO

34




then I got this:

CYC BAL FAULTS:
5
2
7
6

Have no idea what that means, but these are the codes that I had a mechanic pull out of my car.

Any help with this surging bucking issue whould be greatly appreciated.
 
The most glaring code to me is 18. Look for things like an open in the SPOUT wiring. It can also be a bad TFI (the actual signal doesn't match what it's supposed to be. This can kick an IDM code, which 18 encompasses IIRC).

I believe Jrichker might have a post dealing with code 18 - he will be along in the A.M. during coffee. :nice:

As an aside, if you think you have a PIP issue: Pull the cap and look in the bowl. Look for shavings (or swish a magnet around down there - it should pick up ferrous metal). If you have shavings, there's an issue. I like to wash down the bowl with electrical contact cleaner occasionally. If doing this helps, that's a clue.

For your battery, look for parasitic draws like vanity lights, interior lights triggered by pin switches, etc. Your battery might not be able to hold a charge (it will show decent voltage but goes dead after a few days).

Good luck.
 
fix FIRST - KOER-18 - SPOUT open

44 & 94 - do you still have your AIR(smog pump) hooked up??

34 - EGR valve position sensor voltage above high limit

Cyl Bal test - cyls 2, 5, 6, and 7 are weak
 
KOER 18 - disconnect computer
key ON
measure voltage between Pin37(PK) and Pin40(BK/W)
measure voltage between Pin57(R) and Pin60(BK/W)

is voltage greater than 10.5v

If so,
key OFF
ECM disconnected
disconnect TFI
measure Resistance between ECM Pin37 and TFI harness Pk wire (SPOUT)
 
Hissin50

I did replace the TFI..with a new one, still have the same problem. No I do not have a smog pump, or cats.

There was a lot of like black dust or film in the bowl of the distrubitor I did try cleaning it out but nothing. Still have the same issue.

Re: the spout connector- I pulled it out and checked the time when I put the spout connector back in the timing changed, as it's suppose to do I guess?

I do not see any shorts in that spout wire but even if there was, it only pulls timing out, right? Is there away to test this?

I was thinking and so where other people that the PIP in the distrubitor was going out, because of the severe bucking/surging issue. The bucking/surging also happens while the car is at idle. But this problem normally happens once the car gets a little warm, say after anywhere of 5-20 min's of the car running.

Then the problem just keeps happening, and gets to the point to where you can barely drive it.

Any ideas? Above in one of my posts is the things i have replaced, etc. I have thrown a lot of money at this and this is my everyday car.

Has anyone had this same problem?

Does the Spout connector ever go bad? Would it cause the problems I'm having? Counld i just splice the wires going to the spout connector together? to check to see if the spout is bad? what is the spouts job?

Should I have found black dust inside the bowl of the distrubitor? It was also on the cap etc.

Just so we are on the same page, say after the car is warm, and say your at 3,000 rpm the car on the facotory tach drops anywhere from 250-to as much as 750rpm( going back in forth- down up down up). This can happen with the clutch pressed in or if its in gear. This also seams to happen while the car is at idle. So if the car is at idle at say 900 to 1000 rpm at idle all acc. off. the idle will drop say 250rpm and keeps going back and worth, dropping then coming back etc. and this seams to happen very quickly thus the surging and if driving while this happens the BUCKING.

When the car realy starts to act up, if you give tha car full throttle, the car will not really move out of its own way. The car sounds like its almost pinging or like the car is not getting spark, its like a realy bad coughing.

The car has just slowly started doing this, and now has gotten to the point to where it realy cann't be driven, because you cann't get out of your own way now.

Thanks to all again, awatting your and anyone elses thoughts.
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
 
HEY i made a mistake on the pin numbers/ colors:

all is correct EXCEPT :

Pin37 is (R) wire
and measure Resistance between ECM Pin37 and TFI harness Pk wire (SPOUT)
SHOULD BE: measure Resistance between ECM Pin36(PK) and TFI harness Pk wire (SPOUT)

this is how it SHOULD read:

KOER 18 - disconnect computer
key ON
measure voltage between Pin37(R) and Pin40(BK/W)
measure voltage between Pin57(R) and Pin60(BK/W)

is voltage greater than 10.5v

If so,
key OFF
ECM disconnected
disconnect TFI
measure Resistance between ECM Pin36(PK) and TFI harness Pk wire (SPOUT)

sorry for any inconvenience
 
Code 18 - SPOUT out or wiring fault - look for short to ground in SPOUT wiring going back to the computer. Possible bad TFI.

The SPOUT enables the distributor to advance the timing beyond the base setting. Without a working SPOUt, you are locked down to the timing you set with the timing light.

Code 34 Or 334 - EGR voltage above closed limit - Failed sensor, carbon between EGR pintle valve and seat holding the valve off its seat. Remove the EGR valve and clean it with carbon remover. Prior to re-installing see if you can blow air through the flange side of the EGR by mouth. If it leaks, there is carbon stuck on the pintle valve seat, replace the EGR valve ($85-$95).

If the blow by test passes, and you have replaced the sensor, then you have electrical ground problems. Check the resistance between the black/white wire on the MAP/BARO sensor and then the black/white wire on the EGR and the same wire on the TPS. It should be less than 1.5 ohm. Next check the resistance between the black/white wire and the negative battery post. It should be less than 1.5 ohm.

Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter.

Let’s put on our Inspector Gadget propeller head beanies and think about how this works:
The EGR sensor is a variable resistor with ground on one leg and Vref (5 volts) on the other. Its’ resistance ranges from 4000 to 5500 Ohms measured between Vref & ground, depending on the sensor. The center connection of the variable resistor is the slider that moves in response to the amount of vacuum applied. The slider has some minimum value of resistance greater than 100 ohms so that the computer always sees a voltage present at its’ input. If the value was 0 ohms, there would be no voltage output. Then the computer would not be able to distinguish between a properly functioning sensor and one that had a broken wire or bad connection. The EGR I have in hand reads 700 Ohms between the slider (EPV) and ground (SIG RTN) at rest with no vacuum applied. The EGR valve or sensor may cause the voltage to be above closed limits due to the manufacturing tolerances that cause the EGR sensor to rest at a higher position than it should.

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This will affect idle quality by diluting the intake air charge


Codes 44 & 94 - AIR system inoperative - Air Injection. Check vacuum lines for leaks, & cracks. Disconnect the big hose from smog pump: with the engine running you should feel air output. Reconnect the smog pump hose & apply vacuum to the first vacuum controlled valve: Its purpose is to either dump the pump's output to the atmosphere or pass it to the next valve. The next vacuum controlled valve directs the air to either the cylinder heads when the engine is cold or to the catalytic converter when the engine is warm. Disconnect the big hoses from the back side of the vacuum controlled valve and start the engine. Apply vacuum to the valve and see if the airflow changes from one hose to the next.
The two electrical controlled vacuum valves mounted on the rear of the passenger side wheelwell turn the vacuum on & off under computer control. Check to see that both valves have +12 volts on the red wire. Then ground the white/red wire and the first solenoid should open and pass vacuum. Do the same thing to the light green/black wire on the second solenoid and it should open and pass vacuum.

Remember that the computer does not source power for any actuator or relay, but provides the ground necessary to complete the circuit. That means one side of the circuit will always be hot, and the other side will go to ground or below 1 volt as the computer switches on that circuit.

The computer provides the ground to complete the circuit to power the solenoid valve that turns the vacuum on or off. The computer is located under the passenger side kick panel. Remove the kick panel & the cover over the computer wiring connector pins. Check Pin 38 Solenoid valve #1 that provides vacuum to the first Thermactor control valve for a switch from 12-14 volts to 1 volt or less. Do the same with pin 32 solenoid valve #2 that provides vacuum to the second Thermactor control valve. Starting the engine with the computer jumpered to self test mode will cause all the actuators to toggle on and off. If after doing this and you see no switching of the voltage on and off, you can start testing the wiring for shorts to ground and broken wiring. An Ohm check to ground with the computer connector disconnected & the solenoid valves disconnected should show open circuit between the pin 32 and ground and again on pin 38 and ground. In like manner, there should be less than 1 ohm between pin 32 and solenoid valve #2 and pin 38 & Solenoid valve #1.

If after checking the resistance of the wiring & you are sure that there are no wiring faults, start looking at the solenoid valves. If you disconnect them, you can jumper power & ground to them to verify operation. Power & ground supplied should turn on the vacuum flow, remove either one and the vacuum should stop flowing.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host)

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif

See http://forums.stangnet.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50636&d=1180923382 for a very nice drawing of the Thermactor Air System (smog pump) plumbing

If you have a catalytic converter H pipe, you need to fix these codes. If you don't, then don't worry about them
 
Q?

Stupid Question- in regards to this,

The SPOUT enables the distributor to advance the timing beyond the base setting. Without a working SPOUt, you are locked down to the timing you set with the timing light.

If the spout was not working then My timing would be set where i put it with the timing light. However this would not cause the car to buck and surge would it?

Could this be a pip or bad distrubitor problem? You can see from the list of everything I have replaced thus far.

Thanks,
 
Stupid Question- in regards to this,

The SPOUT enables the distributor to advance the timing beyond the base setting. Without a working SPOUt, you are locked down to the timing you set with the timing light.

A comment was made to make things easy to visualize, and it was taken too literally. Don't look at the distributor itself for making advance or retardation changes. The TFI is what sends the signal to energize the ignition coil at the correct time.
 
Sorry about that.

Sorry HISSIN50 If I took that the wrong way, my bad.

Lx90stang, what kind of problems where you having if I may ask?

Cjones, what will checking all of this show me? I'm not a big wrench turner so I take a little bit longer to learn lol sorry.


:bang: :bang:
 
ignition control module?? i dont know as much as these guys but one time i had this problem with my car where i would be driving and after awhile the car its self would like die out and i step on it and it wouldnt go anywhere its hard to explain the car was on but it was moving and the engine would slowly die out, then after a while the whole car wouldnt turn on because it was heating up and needed time to cool like i said i dont know as much and i may be off topic but im just giving you my two cents
 
I would just get a reman distributor from a local parts store , I had really bad bucking after a cam swap before and chased it around replaced everything and finally decided to bite the bullet and pay for the reman dist. and it fixed .....the old was was really hard to turn so I guess the bushing was getting sloppy and probably causing the shaft to wobble and not keeping a constant reading on the PIP ....