hey guys. thinking of puting a 351 in my 93 coupe and wondering what the difference was between the 351w, 351c and the 351m
which 351?
- Thread starter lx93notch
- Start date
-
Sponsors (?)
quick rundown. i don't know all of it it though.
351W- Windsor block. think casted in the Windsor plant in Canada. most common 351 block around. compatible with some 302 parts.
351C- Cleavland block. think casted in Cleavland, OH. block is physically different, heads are different. i dunno much about em.
351M- Modified. thats all i know about it.
351 clevor - is a mix of Windsor and Cleavland parts. like clev block with wind heads or something like that.
351W- Windsor block. think casted in the Windsor plant in Canada. most common 351 block around. compatible with some 302 parts.
351C- Cleavland block. think casted in Cleavland, OH. block is physically different, heads are different. i dunno much about em.
351M- Modified. thats all i know about it.
351 clevor - is a mix of Windsor and Cleavland parts. like clev block with wind heads or something like that.
ratio411
Founding Member
The 351w in a Foxstang is tried and true.
Easy, reliable, easily fuel injected, fits like a glove, some 5.0/302 parts swap, easy cheezy.
However, it's been done to death... If you want something different, and money is no worry,
do a Cleveland. They weren't around to ever get EFI support from the factory, or roller cams
for that matter. But with enough fabbing and money, these things can be done too.
Don't even bother with the 351m/400 engines (externally identical).
They are truck engines with very little/no aftermarket support for use in cars.
If you know the difference between a 302 and 351w, same basic engine, just a little taller/wider...
Well that is the same thing between the 351c and the 351m/400. The Ms are the same basic engine,
just taller and wider. If you can fit an M engine, you can fit a stroked 460! That is why the Ms never
got support. Why run 400 cubes in the same size package you can run 460? Especially when 408 can
come from a much smaller package called Windsor.
Anyway... both 351c and 351w are good and are do-able.
351w is the 'safe' route.
351c is the 'dare to be different' route.
Good luck
Dave
Easy, reliable, easily fuel injected, fits like a glove, some 5.0/302 parts swap, easy cheezy.
However, it's been done to death... If you want something different, and money is no worry,
do a Cleveland. They weren't around to ever get EFI support from the factory, or roller cams
for that matter. But with enough fabbing and money, these things can be done too.
Don't even bother with the 351m/400 engines (externally identical).
They are truck engines with very little/no aftermarket support for use in cars.
If you know the difference between a 302 and 351w, same basic engine, just a little taller/wider...
Well that is the same thing between the 351c and the 351m/400. The Ms are the same basic engine,
just taller and wider. If you can fit an M engine, you can fit a stroked 460! That is why the Ms never
got support. Why run 400 cubes in the same size package you can run 460? Especially when 408 can
come from a much smaller package called Windsor.
Anyway... both 351c and 351w are good and are do-able.
351w is the 'safe' route.
351c is the 'dare to be different' route.
Good luck
Dave
Vipersix
Founding Member
Take some time to really plan this through before you jump in over your head with a Cleveland (or Windsor for that matter). About the only thing they have in common is displacement so it is vitally important that you are able to differentiate between the two.
The 351W is, as explained earlier, basically a beefier version of the 289/302 and is in the same family. It has the same bore spacing and diameter which allows for interchange of heads (though the bolts are different sizes). The deck is higher which requires a unique manifold and the differing angle requires unique headers. This block was produced from 1969 until the present.
The 351C was only produced for 4 1/2 years so the parts are scarce and spendy. Virtually every aspect of the motor will be different from the 289/302/351 series with exception to the bell housing pattern. The Cleveland shares some aspects with the Midland (also called Modified) which is closer to a big block than a small block. Windsor and Cleveland heads can be interchanged but you will need to do some modifications to the water passages since the Cleveland does not use a front cover.
I would recommend you do some extensive planning and price checking before you make your decision.
The 351W is, as explained earlier, basically a beefier version of the 289/302 and is in the same family. It has the same bore spacing and diameter which allows for interchange of heads (though the bolts are different sizes). The deck is higher which requires a unique manifold and the differing angle requires unique headers. This block was produced from 1969 until the present.
The 351C was only produced for 4 1/2 years so the parts are scarce and spendy. Virtually every aspect of the motor will be different from the 289/302/351 series with exception to the bell housing pattern. The Cleveland shares some aspects with the Midland (also called Modified) which is closer to a big block than a small block. Windsor and Cleveland heads can be interchanged but you will need to do some modifications to the water passages since the Cleveland does not use a front cover.
I would recommend you do some extensive planning and price checking before you make your decision.
There are a few things to consider between 351C and 351W, the Windsor is probably easier and more common. The Cleveland is not as easy a motor to build but built right, I'd take that route. Clevor is 351C heads on a Windsor block. 351C have a fanatical following, there is a lot of bad info floating around on them as well. People say the oiling needs mods, sure if you are going over 7K rpm you better add the restrictors so you do not starve the mains. Fact is the 351C was so badass it was banned from many racing groups. They used to turn them to 10K with oiling mods. The ports on a set of 4V heads are huge, so large that if you run a smallish carb and exhaust a 351C suffers at low rpm(bog bigtime). However with enough gas/air/cubes to supprt them, they rock. As with any Ford smallblock, cylinder wall thickness is an issue, get it sonic checked if going to .030 or above. By the way the oiling mods are very cheap to do, Moroso makes the kit I believe. Don't worry if the block is 2 or 4 bolt, both are fine. If you locate a set of 4V heads to use, you will need to replace the valves, I recommend 1 piece stainless. The stock ones had a nasty habit of coming apart as they were 2 piece.
Here is a shot of a set of 4V open chamber heads on my 351C:
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd169/SaleenClone/107-0726_IMG.jpg
Some prefer the closed chamber to the open or like the aussie 2vs but I like both versions of the 4V, you can make good power with them both.
Hope that helps.
Matt
Here is a shot of a set of 4V open chamber heads on my 351C:
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd169/SaleenClone/107-0726_IMG.jpg
Some prefer the closed chamber to the open or like the aussie 2vs but I like both versions of the 4V, you can make good power with them both.
Hope that helps.
Matt
82CapriRS
New Member
i say 351c. yes they are rare. but they make more power from the heads. there huge port heads even stock. they made a 2 bolt an 4 bolt main block, which is a good point considering im pretty sure they never made a 4 bolt main windsor from ford. im not positive but pretty sure but im sure someone on here can prove me wrong or right. clevelands did have 2 different set of heads also. they had the 2v (the v stood for venturis not valves) an then they made a 4v head. 2v heads are good for lower rpm but still made good power. this is all stuff i've learned in the past couple months as im tryin to get a notch an drop a cleveland into. they make really good power an even better torque. you could make as much power on a windsor i suppose but it will be with a 2 bolt main block which depending on what your gonna do to it, it might hold you back. i have an upper hand on this swap as 2 uncles have 2 an 4 bolt main block layin around an several sets of heads. otherwise i would probably go with the windsor because of the cost an hard to find parts
Vipersix
Founding Member
Unless you're looking to make a statement, the Windsor is better to use. There is a reason the Cleveland was only made for four years. The higher cost of parts for the Cleveland will buy you a brand new aftermarket 4-bolt Windsor style engine (Ford itself makes eight different 351 blocks). In fact they're not even labeled as Windsor anymore, just 351.
Have to compare apples to apples, stock blocked 351C and 351W will both hold 500+ hp reliably, some take them as high as 700 without issues. Aftermarket blocks are available for both C and W. Someone mentioned earlier that 351C parts cost more. Which parts? I purchased a block and heads for 300 dollars, last year I bought a whole 351C needing rebuilding for 150 dollars. Pistons/rings/stroker kits/whatever cost the same or within a few bucks either way. Aftermarket heads are plentiful on either(CHI 3Vs with a matching CHI intake is an awesome package). You can also buy 351s reasonably, for example(not a sales pitch)I have a really nicely done up 11.5:1 4V 351C that I have close to 5k in, it is for sale at 3500 firm and I have not sold it yet. If you take that motor and drop it in a fox you will run 10s. Those are pretty cheap 10s. If I ever find a clean 4 cyl coupe at a reasonable price I am going to have the hardest time resisting temptation. Built 351C and a built C4 sitting here tempting me...
go Clevelands although Windsors are nice too.
Matt
go Clevelands although Windsors are nice too.
Matt
Vipersix
Founding Member
You can go out and buy relatively cheap used parts fairly easily for either engine. Once you start looking at new parts for the Cleveland though you will begin to see a pretty stark difference. In addition, there is simply an enormous difference in the number of options between the two.
There are four heads available for the Cleveland on Summit ranging from $706 to $1023. You can choose from 202 for the Windsor from $314 to $3000.
There is one crank for $300 for the Cleveland, twenty for the Windsor for $300 to $2100.
The Cleveland has 86 camshafts from $60 to $440 and 157 for the Windsor from $55 to $410.
I could care less what sort of engine you decide to build, but I think you should consider all aspects of the build and installation before making a decision. The worst thing a person can do is attempt to begin building an engine before fully drafting a plan of where he's going and what he wants. It's a good way to double the money you spend on it.
There are four heads available for the Cleveland on Summit ranging from $706 to $1023. You can choose from 202 for the Windsor from $314 to $3000.
There is one crank for $300 for the Cleveland, twenty for the Windsor for $300 to $2100.
The Cleveland has 86 camshafts from $60 to $440 and 157 for the Windsor from $55 to $410.
I could care less what sort of engine you decide to build, but I think you should consider all aspects of the build and installation before making a decision. The worst thing a person can do is attempt to begin building an engine before fully drafting a plan of where he's going and what he wants. It's a good way to double the money you spend on it.
68stang351
Founding Member
Do NOT use a 351 Modified. Ford grew the deck height of the cleveland and made a 400ci out of it, the 351M has the tall deck of a 400 but only displacing 351ci. It is useless junk.
68stang351
Founding Member
I have one in my 68, I'm building one for my 90 right now with Trickflow topend, and I have another on an engine stand, I'm going to build a forged 408 with it.
I'm kinda partial to windsors I guess.
86nu
New Member
depending on the year of the boat motor, its the same block as the 1st gen lightning. It has a few casting differences than a standard 351.
secondly, the 351c block is not as strong as a windsor block. thinner cylinder walls on the cleveland
Similar threads
