Kenne Bell: Intercooled or not?

[trinity_gt]

The Power Adder forum seems a bit slow so I'll try here too:

I'm looking at 2V superchargers from Kenne Bell and talked to a local distributor today about them. My original thoughts were that I don't really want to run 9PSI (TS1000-99-INT) on the street for a number of reasons one of which includes the reliability of my stock shortblock. Thus I had it in my head that the non-intercooled 6PSI (TS1000-99) setup would suffice. In talking to this guy though he strongly recommended the I/C setup. I was told their shop -- well known but nameless for now -- have never installed a non-intercooled KB setup in a 2V GT...every one has been the intercooled option. He claimed reliability, less likelihood of detonation etc.

I understand what he's saying but the impression I got was that at 6PSI, the N/I KB setup might be more prone to detonation than the intercooled setup at 9PSI. Is this true? They're offering the 6PSI N/I KB for $3899 and the intercooled setup for $4999. Is it really worth the additional $1100 for this peace of mind or is the KB tune good and conservative and is this guy just just being a sales greaseball trying to up-sell me?

My car has a couple of mods, including a JLT intake and Steeda catback. I did have an MRT catted H on it but had to swap in the factory H for emissions testing and I'm not sure the MRT will go back on. I might stay stock or I might go X...not sure yet. The car also has Comp 262AH cams on stock valvesprings. I've been told the extra 3PSI of the intercooled setup is good for 50 more HP over the 6PSI non-intercooled setup. Again, with my mods, is $1100 really worth it?

Does KB offer its tune in a form that it could be flashed using, say, an SCT tuner or is it the old-skool "chip" that plugs into the service port of the ECM?

 

[darkside03gt]

with your cams i would be concerned about making too much hp with the 9psi intercooled kit. 400rwhp is really the max on our 2v gts and with those cams you will exceed that. i would just go with the 6 psi kit or you could special order the intercooled kit with a pulley that is in between the 6 and 9 psi pulleys to keep the power down a little

 

[fudleyd]

Maybe you could try it, run low boost and keep it safe. Then, if you find later on you need it, or you want to amp it up, then upgrade?

I have wondered the same thing when I daydream about a blower...it might be good just to take the plunge and go all out.

 

[nyuk98gt]

trinity_gt:

No slight intended to your shop but what about the old FRPP Roots blower kit? That little fella was 6 psi and non-intercooled and offered a very nice boost in performance. The KB compressor is more efficient (so, lower air discharge temperature) so you will get more power from it than the FRPP blower. My point is that 6 psi non-intercooled is not a bad choice at all and it won't kill your short block. As "darkside03gt" said, the cams will really help blower performance.

Now, if your goal is to squeeze every bit of power out of your engine then you should go with the 9 psi intercooled now and plan on a stouter short block some time in the future. Match your hardware to your goals/budget (well, goals mainly, lol).

HTH,

Chris

 

[trinity_gt]

trinity_gt:

No slight intended to your shop but what about the old FRPP Roots blower kit? That little fella was 6 psi and non-intercooled and offered a very nice boost in performance.

You know, I thought about that very thing. Even pictured that one in my head as I drove back from the shop. I'd also thought about the better efficiency and cooler discharge temp of the KB versus the FRPP at that same boost level. Thanks for validating that.

darkside's point about the potential for 9PSI and the cams to produce rod-hurting torque/power is something I hadn't thought about. I did think about the 6psi version making power close to the 9PSI version (since the cams gave 30+HP at the top of the rev range N/A) but I didn't extend that to think what might happen at 9. Good catch.

Given these points, I'm still leaning toward the non-intercooled 6PSI version. If I have a problem with discharge heat, maybe I can plumb in a Snow water/meth system. Plus, I'd save $1100...

Now, if your goal is to squeeze every bit of power out of your engine then you should go with the 9 psi intercooled now and plan on a stouter short block some time in the future. Match your hardware to your goals/budget (well, goals mainly, lol).

Hehe. My goals are pretty modest really. Weighing power versus reliability, I fall on the side of reliability. I'd like the car to feel like it has a mild big-block between the strut towers but I don't really need the power to do a burn-out in 3rd gear at 70MPH. As well, I want to stick with the 245 rubber... I really think the 6PSI kit will give that. I like the intercooler-less system's easier, cleaner install and living further from the edge than I would at 9PSI.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[darkside03gt]

trinity_gt:

No slight intended to your shop but what about the old FRPP Roots blower kit? That little fella was 6 psi and non-intercooled and offered a very nice boost in performance. The KB compressor is more efficient (so, lower air discharge temperature) so you will get more power from it than the FRPP blower. My point is that 6 psi non-intercooled is not a bad choice at all and it won't kill your short block. As "darkside03gt" said, the cams will really help blower performance.

Now, if your goal is to squeeze every bit of power out of your engine then you should go with the 9 psi intercooled now and plan on a stouter short block some time in the future. Match your hardware to your goals/budget (well, goals mainly, lol).

HTH,

Chris

I wouldnt recomend that kit since it will require alot of fabrication to make it work including a costom altenator bracket. its not worth it.

 

[blkhorse]

I would get the intercooled kit,if your afraid of the boost just run the 6 psi pulley.Trust me you may think you'll be happy with 6 psi, but you'll want more.

I have been running 9psi(my guage reads 10.5) with stage 3 blower cams and the mods in my sig. for over a year on stock longblock,I get on it every chance I get. I would get it dyno tuned. you can blow your engine on 6 psi or have it live with 10 psi depending on the tune

 

[bhuff30]

Intercoolers make a huge difference on making safe power or just blowing hot air. I completely agree with getting the intercooled kit and then running the 6psi pulley. You'll make more power than the standard 6psi, but it'll be even safer. You'll even have the option of upping the boost later if you want, or putting a bigger pulley on for going to the track or what have you.

 

[trinity_gt]

Dammit. All of you guys are making sensible arguments for both options.

After a night's consideration, now I'm thinking that the intercooled kit and a 6-psi pulley to start might be the right path. $1100 is alot but intercooling also offers peace of mind which is priceless... The efficiency of the KB means the air can't be that hot but with hypereutectic pistons, how much detonation does it really take to hurt it...?

 

[SilverBullet00]

Intercooled is the only way to go. It will drop your IAT readings significantly... and eventually you will want more boost anyways

 

[rfedd]

If the budget is tight, which is seems to be, one other issue to think about is mileage. The Tork Tech Inc. kit, which has been mentioned on the forum in other threads, will at least keep your mileage the same, if not better. The Magnuson based kit, is a roots style blower, so it moves air by volume, rather than by compression. Air in, air out vs. air in, compression, air out. At 70 MPH in cruise they are seeing 27.5-28 MPG. Power wise it is making the same if not more power than the KB at the same boost levels, and costs substantially less, for both inter cooled (400HP) and non inter cooled(350 HP) versions. AIT are around 140 even after multiple hard dyno passes. Go to you tube, and type in Tork Tech Supercharger. There are a bunch of video's about it, how it sounds and how it performs.

How much detonation does it take to hurt something? Just once in the right place. Sometimes you get lucky and loose a plug electrode, sometimes there is a hole in a piston.

 

[snowb07]

I will tell you that you will want more boost and when you do you will be thankful that you have the option of throwing a new pully on and have more. I will also tell you that on my completly stock block I have been running my twin turbos at 426hp and 460 tq for three years and about 50+ passes at the track no issues yet. I understand not all blocks are the same and I may be on borrrowed time, but that has worked for me. my car is a 2003 GT 37*** miles.

 

[bhuff30]

I would agrue that you can make more power safely on a turbo setup. Think about it, a blower takes 40-60 horsepower from the crank (extra effort is required by the rods, pistons and crank). A turbo setup takes the energy from the exhaust instead of the crank. Because the rods are the weak point, you can make more power safely with a turbo setup that takes energy from the exhaust system. Yes, there is more pressure in the exhaust system, so the pistons and rods are doing more work on the exhaust stroke, but the pressures are still a fraction of what they are on the power stroke. So I'd say you are more than safe at 426rwhp on a turbo setup.

I will tell you that you will want more boost and when you do you will be thankful that you have the option of throwing a new pully on and have more. I will also tell you that on my completly stock block I have been running my twin turbos at 426hp and 460 tq for three years and about 50+ passes at the track no issues yet. I understand not all blocks are the same and I may be on borrrowed time, but that has worked for me. my car is a 2003 GT 37*** miles.

 

[trinity_gt]

If the budget is tight, which is seems to be...

It's not so much that it's tight (it's not) but rather I simply don't want to spend more than I have to to achieve what I seek. That's just common sense. If money was tight I wouldn't be thinking FI at all.

...one other issue to think about is mileage. The Tork Tech Inc. kit ...

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

It's not so much that it's tight (it's not) but rather I simply don't want to spend more than I have to to achieve what I seek. That's just common sense. If money was tight I wouldn't be thinking FI at all.

Amen, that's how i approach any mod.

 

[Mikie]

You can run a 6lb KB without the IC setup. They sell the kit that way. No issues whatsoever will you have with that kit.

Mine was originally purchased as the 9lb IC kit and put out 392 rwhp on the kb tune. I wanted a few more ponies out of it so I had the 11 lb pulley ordered and took the car to Pro dyno for a custom tune to be able to safetly run this pulley. The car made numbers in the sig and Im super happy with the performance. If something lets go in the bottom end then I already have plans to go forged, but will enjoy the ride as long as it allows. If you dont beat the piss out of your car every time you leave the parking lot then you will be fine in my opinion.
I have a close friend in a 99 GT SCed pushing 479 rwhp for over 3 years now and tracks it about once per month with no issues on a good tune.

 

[rfedd]

I would agrue that you can make more power safely on a turbo setup. Think about it, a blower takes 40-60 horsepower from the crank (extra effort is required by the rods, pistons and crank). A turbo setup takes the energy from the exhaust instead of the crank. Because the rods are the weak point, you can make more power safely with a turbo setup that takes energy from the exhaust system. Yes, there is more pressure in the exhaust system, so the pistons and rods are doing more work on the exhaust stroke, but the pressures are still a fraction of what they are on the power stroke. So I'd say you are more than safe at 426rwhp on a turbo setup.

I agree with you. So it all boils down to how the car will be used, and where we want to see HP and Torque. A turbo (unless set up with the right stall converter or it is launched at 4K plus) is only at peak for a millisecond. Dyno sheet of a turbo: http://elementtuning.com/images/Dyno Plots/Element GT65B 512whp web.jpg
Where as a Positive Displacement blower is on NOW, and makes peak torque and maintains it across a much wider RPM band. Dyno sheet of a PD: http://www.lingenfelter.com/superchargedctsv.BMP

And we all know torque is what gets you moving.