65 modded mustang vs 05-08 handling comparison

[jamison42166]

Having never driven one the newer stangs im wondering how well my modded out early 65 coupe could keep up with a newer 05-08 stang... at least as far as handling goes. theres a guy down the street with an 08 stang with an automatic. everytime i run into the guy he says he likes my car but he always tells me the classics are no match for the newer cars. ( the guy has never looked underneath and I havent volunteered any info).
my coupe has the following mods in the suspension:
SSBC stainless front disc brakes
TCP coilover conversion
TCP power rack and pinion steering
TCP subframes with X-frame and driveshaft loop
Maier 200 lb race leafs koni shocks in the rear.
215 60 R15 tires on 15 x 7 torq thrusts.
3.80 limited slip rear with a built C4 auto.
as far as im concerned the car handles really well at least a whole heck of a lot better than it did stock.

 

[zookeeper]

He's right. Hey, I love my car as well, but there's no getting around 40+ years and millions of dollars of developement. But that doesn't change the fact that his new car is losing value faster than he can pay it off, or that it looks like every other new Mustang, now does it?

 

[D.Hearne]

Based on my memory of my 67 big block Stang and my current 77 Comet (same suspension for both), there's no comparision between the handling..........up to 120 mph with the 67 big block Stang, my 06 wins hands down up to that point. The 67 was the more stable car above 120. That was simply because the steering wasn't as sensitive on the 67. This is after I had rebuilt the 67's suspension completely, with all stock parts and added stiffer front springs. My Comet is twitchy all around, probably cause the front end is much lighter than the big block car was. My 06 at speeds above 120 is purely a scary car to drive with the more sensitive steering. One wrong move and you're toast at those speeds. (and for those who're squeemish about this subject, I only went "that far north" once on a deserted road at 3am)

 

[red65]

I've owned and driven both on track - my modded '65 and a stock '05 I returned off lease a few months ago.

Your list of mods doesn't list a rear brake upgrade, which would be a big handicap relative to the '08 on just about any track (drag strips notwithstanding), and he's got more tire on the road with stiffer sidewalls. (235s on 17" versus your 215s on 15"). Your choice of tires makes a huge difference as well - R-compounds make up for a variety of other deficiencies. I also don't see your engine mods - his '08 makes a very usable 300HP (assuming it's stock), which isn't hard to exceed in your '65, but if you're making less it'll be a significant handicap as well. If you're serious, you should consider either a Watts link or Panhard bar on the rear.

Here's what I'm running (summarized for brevity): 445rwhp supercharged 306, 13" Cobra / PBR front disks, 11" SSBC rear disks, Global West front suspension (all) and subframe connectors, Maier rear leafs (165#/in, I think), Unisteer R&P, 22545R17 Hankook R-compounds - the list goes on but you get the idea. My car is capable of keeping up with and passing most stock or lightly modded '08s on tracks that favor it - those tracks have long straights where I can take advantage of the HP advantage. On small twisty tracks, Neons eat my lunch , never mind Mustangs.

Bottom line - I'd guess that your car needs a bit more work, and you need some serious seat time to be competitive with your neighbor's '08. But it's possible. Trust me.

 

[gtss]

I too have both, 65 fastback, and 06 convertible. D.Hearne , I am shocked you find the new one scary over 120, I have actually commented how smooth and stable I find the new ones,

as others have said, I do think the new ones are overall better, but ... 40 years of technology and they should be.

Red65, I see you listed the Unisteer rack and pinion, is your power or manual? and if manual how do you find the steering effort.
I am seriously looking at getting into autocross with mine, but I think slightly easier steering would be a good thing. but I don't really want to go full power.

I also had the chance to drive a mildly modified 06 at Miller Motorsport's driving school, on the road course and autocross. and that will definitely kick my 65"s behind.

gtss

 

[jamison42166]

engine mods are pretty mild (its more show than go) probably around 190 hp.

289 stock bottom end with Edelbrock performer RPM heads milled slightly to retain as much stock compression as i ccould (ill be the first to admit im not an expert on this stuff im not sure how much they were milled.) . RPM intake and hydraulic roller cam with .520 lift new pushrods lifters and roller rockers. Edelbrock 600 CFM 4 barrel with mechanical secondaries. the engine has about 1000 miles on it since being rebuilt. the trans has a shift kit and a 2200 stall converter with needle bearings instead of thrush washers.
i know the wheels tires are a limiting factor right now the budget wont allow for anything else. I wouldnt push the car to its absolute limit anyhow just due to its value.. the neighbor is a 20 yr old and looks to be the type to drive his car ragged.
wouldnt weight be a factor as well? from what ive heard the new stangs are pretty heavy.

overall i guess it just doesnt matter much im happy with the car as is. he has the newest year and I have the first year.
no matter what my car turns more heads than his ever will.
its nice to know where i stand without having some idiot trying to street race me.
heres what i started with:
View attachment 292330
and this is what it looks like today: View attachment 292332

 

[jamison42166]

Well I guess I dont have to worry about the neighbor anymore. I went outside my house and noticed the cops had him pulled over right next to his house. I know all the cops here and they said they clocked him at 60 mph:Track: ( 25 mph residential street with a lot kids on the block). they charged him with reckless op and its his second reckless op charge in 6 months... they got him doing donuts on village property... I dont think the guy will be driving for a while. thankfully he lives a few houses down from me...

its funny because the conversation I had with him took place only a couple of days ago... what comes around goes around.

 

[StangDreamin']

A Minus: The S197 Mustangs have a track -distance between wheel centers side-to-side- of 62.3" (Front) and 62.5" (Rear). That's over 6" wider than the 65's track. Wider is more stable.

A Plus: The S197 Mustang has a curb weight of 3450 lbs (Stick) or 3500 lbs (Auto). The 65's curb weight is 2556 for the coupe. In handling, lighter is better.

Now there are a lot of variables, like how much does your modded '65 weigh, and the weight distrbution (late-models are a bit closer to 50/50 over the wheels); but with some work -and it looks like you done quite a bit of it in the front already- you could easily stick with the guy; at least......

But I'd be very careful in trying to do this - the cops are already watching him, with very good reason!

 

[jamison42166]

i wont even try to stick with him, after what he did, when you live and work in a town of 1,000 people everyone knows everyone whethe you like it or not..if i went down for something like that (which i never would) id probably lose my job... especially considering the police chief/admin is my supervisor... If i was gonna try it id find a race track... the other thing he has 5 gears and I have 3 with no od... not sure what my theretical top end is with 3.80 gearing, however ive never taken the car above 90 our roads here suck...

 

[D.Hearne]

I too have both, 65 fastback, and 06 convertible. D.Hearne , I am shocked you find the new one scary over 120, I have actually commented how smooth and stable I find the new ones,

I didn't say it wasn't smooth and stable, what I said was with it's sensitive steering, one twitch of the wheel at those speeds and you're history. If I were to drive it on a road course, the first thing I'd do is disable the power assist on the steering if that's possible. Back when I first bought it, I tried dodging an armadillo at 90 mph (again, this was at 3 am) and nearly lost it. These cars are just not forgiving in steering control at high speeds. Run from a cop in one? Not on your life. All he'd have to do is lay back and wait for the Stang driver to lose it. I've got 35 years and over 3 million miles driving and I think I know of what I speak.

 

[zookeeper]

I don't know how the new ones handle to be honest, but my '88 is far more stable at any speed than my '68. While I can't claim to have put 3,000,000 miles on any car, I can say that I've had my '88 near 140 and it was dead stable. The steering is far from twitchy, and it's top end manners are very comforting. As for dodging wildlife on the interstate, I think I'd take my chances whacking it rather than yank the wheel at 90mph, regardless of vehicle.

 

[rbohm]

while i dont have the miles driven like DH does, i have driven almost 1 million miles, and in a large variety of weather conditions, and i can tell you that even modified vintage cars are at a disadvantage to newer cars. my 80 fairmont wagon with its stock suspension is much more capable that my 64 falcon with its stock suspension. both had the inline six and stock tire sizes. comparing a mid 60;s mustang to a 2008 mustang is just about every catagory, the late model stang will leave the vintage car in the dust, even when the vintage car is modified, with few exceptions. remember that the only disadvantage that the modern stang has is weight, nearly 800lbs more.

 

[D.Hearne]

Most of the miles I've driven were in 18 wheelers. You get all kinds of handling experience with em.

 

[rbohm]

Most of the miles I've driven were in 18 wheelers. You get all kinds of handling experience with em.

aint that the truth!! i have driven just about everything up to a 5 ton vacuum truck and 6 ton sprinkler truck.

 

[BornInAFord]

Here's an interesting video. If you throw enough money ($145K in this example) at a vintage car, you can make it handle nearly as well a new GT500... There are less expensively built, far lighter 65-66 cars out there that will outhandle the featured 3500lb (!!!) 66 but the featured one did pretty well .
Daniel

 

[D.Hearne]

What y'all need to remember though here is the true measure of a car's handling ability isn't the car, but the driver. You can put the most inexperienced driver in the world in something like a GT40 and he'll promptly put it into the wall in the first corner. A driver's experience in sensing the car's handling and his nerve (that's how far he's willing to push the limits of the car) combined are the true test.

 

[red65]

Red65, I see you listed the Unisteer rack and pinion, is your power or manual? and if manual how do you find the steering effort.
I am seriously looking at getting into autocross with mine, but I think slightly easier steering would be a good thing. but I don't really want to go full power.

I have a manual Unisteer R&P. I find the steering effort acceptable for me, but it's not something I'd expect my grandmother to have an easy time with. It makes a pretty amazing difference in general driving manners, and my first track session with it was measurably faster; no more approximating the racing line, now I can reliably hit it.

Dhearne's comment about driver ability is right on. The biggest variable in how any car handles is the nut behind the wheel. That's why it makes good sense to spend time and effort making yourself a better driver before bothering with a lot of expensive mods.

As for the speed discussion, at one of my favorite tracks in Michigan, Grattan raceway, both the '65 and '05 top out on the fastest part of the track at about 130mph (+/-). The '65 is a lot more work to drive anywhere on the track than the '05, not just there, but it doesn't feel any more "unstable" to me than the '05. The aerodynamics of both cars are pretty poor at that speed, but I find them both pretty manageable. fwiw...

- Andy