Noisy Hydraulic Lifters - Any Fix Ideas ?

[KiwiGT]

My '66 fastback has a Roush 342R crate engine. The engine has travelled 5000 miles from when I purchased it as a new crate. From brand new it has had a rear main oil seal leak, and very noisy tappets. I have just taken it apart to fix both problems. The rear main seal was an easy fix - Roush hadn't installed it within the block correctly so it wasn't seated, allowing oil to pour out.

I am still having trouble with very excessive tappet noise. Every time I adjusted the rockers, they would bleed back, allowing the rocker arms to go slack, and causing excessive tappet noise.

The first thig I checked was the valve springs - suspecting they were causing bleed down of the hydraulic lifters. The cam Roush installed is a Comp Cams XE247 HR hydraulic roller.

The valve springs for that cam are said to be 135lbs. Roush had 185 lb srings installed so I changed the springs to the correct 135lbs; and adjusted the rockers to 1 - 1/2 turns down. However much I adjusted the rockers I still had lots of tappet noise; and still had bleed down of the lifters within about a minute of stopping the engine. At that stage the rockers would be slack, and I could easily turn the pushrod, and fit a feeler gauge between the rocker and the valve.

Next I replaced the 5000 mile lifters with brand new specified hydraulic lifters. I adjusted the tappets with the engine running but still cannot stop the tappet noise no matter how much I wind down on the adjusters. There is still bleed down of the lifters, although it is less than it was with the original roush lifters. I can still turn the pushrods after I stop the engine.

Push rods have been inspected and seem ok. The cam lobes have been inspected and seem ok. There is ample oil at all the roller rockers. Oil is now 20w50. I have tried various oil grades and they don't make any appreciable difference to the tappet noise.

I live outside the USA and the Roush warranty does not apply outside the U.S, so I'm not expecting any great assistance from there.

Any ideas please ?

 

[D.Hearne]

Well I've got news for you you're not going to like............................. The lifter noise you're hearing is completely normal. Roller cam with full roller rockers = noisy sum-bitch. Just like running a solid-flat tappet cam. I take it you don't like the noise, but to me...........it's music to my ears. This is also the reason the 93 Cobra 5.0 was equipped with dual layer stamped steel valve covers.......to deaden the rocker noise.

 

[zookeeper]

I agree, they are noisy, but I like it as well. The noise is about the only drawback, and I suspect that once it gets up to decent rpm (2500 or so) the noise probably goes away, or does it keep going throughout the rpm range?

 

[10secgoal]

Yepper. the roller stuff sounds like a tapping sewing machine

 

[KiwiGT]

Ok - you learn something new every day

At least I don't have to waste any more money chasing a fix...

But why can I turn my pushrods once the engine is stopped - shouldn't hydraulic pressure keep them immovable ?

The tappet noise is throughout the rev range, it doens't end at about 2500 rpm.

 

[D.Hearne]

The pushrods slacken due to the lifters loosing hydraulic pressure. Nothing to worry about. Enjoy your motor. You may have lost some of your upper rpms with the valve spring change now. The lifters will float sooner now.

 

[zookeeper]

Ok - you learn something new every day

At least I don't have to waste any more money chasing a fix...

But why can I turn my pushrods once the engine is stopped - shouldn't hydraulic pressure keep them immovable ?

The tappet noise is throughout the rev range, it doens't end at about 2500 rpm.

The pushrods should be free enough to allow you to turn them. You should feel some resistance, but they should still be free enough to turn with your fingers.

 

[woodsnake]

As the engine is running, the cam lobes are what pump up the lifters to actuate the push rods. If the engine isn't running, it is very normal for the lifters to "bleed down". As soon as the engine is running again, they pump right back up...

 

[KiwiGT]

Thanks for all the responses.

That noise isn't music to my ears. I can't see the factory Cobra sound deadening rocker covers listed in the FRPP catalogue so I presume they are no longer available new ?

Are there any aftermarket sound deadening rocker covers anybody can recommend please ?

 

[mrmustangman357]

i dont see how roller rockers make excessive noise. i can't even hear them if i tried on my roller 351w

 

[zookeeper]

I'm kinda thinking something is wrong. While mine has a little ticking you can hear with the hood open, it cannot be heard with it shut, nor can you hear it inside the car. If you can hear if with the hood shut, and while driving, SOMETHING is wrong. Forged pistons, agressive cams and such can make a bit of noise, but it's supposed to clear up to nearly non-existant as the motor warms up. I'd at least call the folks at Roush and see what they say.

 

[D.Hearne]

I can hear all 16 of mine in my 331.(Canfield heads, Comp 1.7 rockers, Ford Z303 cam) And it's completely normal. The Cobra covers were never available thru Ford Racing. They're not much to look at, just plain black steel covers.

 

[DK832]

Admittedly, I've only owned 3 big lift hyd. roller motors but besides being able to hear them with the hood open, I wouldn't define it as noisy at all. D:Hearne et al, I bow to your experience but in his other post he calls it noisy as a diesel. No way! A buddy has a Rousch 342RE that makes very little noise, just that nice quiet sewing machine sound. The cog belt drive on my 69 Mustang GT is louder than the FRPP hyd. roller lifters! The only time I have had "diesel sounds" was after my BMW 6 broke 2 rocker arms when I missed a shift.

Sounds like you tried all sorts of things, so just thinking out loud: How is your oil pressure? Oil galley restrictions maybe?

 

[KiwiGT]

Well, we fired the egine up again yesterday after instaling a set of new hydraulic lifters. It is now worse than before in terms of noise, and has lost substantial power - presumably due to the valves not opening fully.

To recap - the cam has been chcked and the lobes are ok. Valve springs have been changed to the manufacturers spec. Roller rockers have all been inspected, no visible problems. Pushrods have been inspected, no visible problems. There is plenty of oil present at all rockers, we were adjusting the valves with the engine runing and there was oil everywhere (including where it should be).

Valve adjustment has been tried in all the usual different ways - between 3/4 and up to 1 1/12 turns with the engine off - no change. And we've adjusted the valves with the engine running - back them off until they clatter, turn down until quiet, then 1 turn -no change

Oil pressure is 55 lb at idle, 70 lb at 2000 rpm. Oil is brand new 20w50. Have tried 10w30 and 10w40 - no change.

There are two distinct valve train noises - one that sounds like noisy gudgeon pins (but isn't gudgeons) and the distinctive noisy tappet sound.

I've e-mailed Roush asking for assistance and a copy of the engine build sheet, no reply as yet.

 

[zookeeper]

You seem to be going about this right. Oil pressure sounds stout, you're adjusting the valves both ways, and you've swapped lifters, all with no real fix. I think you did the right thing emailing Roush, if it's that bad, maybe they can offer a fix. BTW, what the hell are gudgeon pins?

 

[KiwiGT]

You might call gudgeon pins wrist pins in the U.S I think. They are the bush that connects the connecting rod to the piston. Here in NZ they are known as gudgeon pins.

We took the oil pump off this morning. The sump and oil pickup are a Canton 15-630 supplied new with the Roush engine. We found that the oil pickup face was warpped by 20 thousands of an inch. We have machined it true and are now replacing it back on. The current hope is that the plate was sucking vacum and not supplying enough oil to the lifters, or aerating the oil being supplied to the lifters. We'll see ....

 

[mrmustangman357]

and roush industries assembled this motor?

 

[DK832]

The current hope is that the plate was sucking vacum and not supplying enough oil to the lifters, or aerating the oil being supplied to the lifters. We'll see ....

Areating sounds like a candidate, will keep the pressure up but volume low.
Good hunting, it's soooo frustrating buying your dream motor and then chasing issues for months. My buddy is going thru the same thing here (Denmark) and many US builders dont give a **** about foreign warranty/help...

 

[C0V3R]

Yepper. the roller stuff sounds like a tapping sewing machine

Mine sounds like that too after a lot of fiddling to try and adjust it out.

The proform rockers I had before were much worse than the crane golds I have now.

 

[woodsnake]

There is no reason for "roller" rockers to make a peep.

incorrect PR length, wrong springs, or incorrect installed spring height will all cause noise, but think about the ROLLER bit.