68 289 turbo or supercharge ?

[mdriggers9662]

Found this reply to a thread in another forum site and was wondering if anyone had thoughts on it. The thread was from 2003 so the engine year models may have a larger span now. Just think I may could do this setup and have all my tubing and parts chromed for looks.


[A few more dollars? You could make 450 HP with a $500 budget if you do good planning. Turbo from a '98-02 powerstroke diesel, make your own headers from a set of hedman 88400 shorties, your own plumbing, etc. The headers will most likely be the most expensive part. VERY, VERY easy power, great steetability, very low noise (the turbo eats up a LOT of exhaust noise), and best of all the power is tuneable, either with a adjustable wastegate which can be adjusted from the driver's seat, or by creative use of your right foot. I prefer the latter/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

 

[10secgoal]

Careful my ass. It can be done cheaper if you do yourself. But a good fuel system will cost you more than that.
The quoted person probably didn't ever do it themselves.

 

[wicked93gs]

a good fuel system will cost more....you need injectors($400? for a v8) a good ECU($400 for either megasquirt or a tweecer to tune your stock ecu) 255lph pump($100) and probably a good $150 for misc fuel lines, etc however, it is true that a turbo system you build yourself is still cheaper than a supercharger, as well as being more fuel efficient, making more power at the same boost level, and having a great advantage of being able to be pieced together...I would personally snag a couple of used 16g mitsu turbos for a couple hundred each, nissan injectors from a junkyard are cheap and have a big advantage of being able to be modified to flow pretty huge amounts of fuel, carefully planned you can build your own system for under $2000 that will work well. I have done it several times on different cars, the trick is knowing where to spend money and where you can get buy with something cheap...a 1st gen DSM BOV for instance will set you back $7 and can hold 30psi of boost with a few minor mods....while chineese made turbos are crap(a lot of the ones on ebay), the chineese wastegates work fine

 

[mdriggers9662]

Thanks for the heads up. Never thought much about intermingling foreign parts with my mustang but I do have a friend that installed a Toyota power steering pump on a 302 powered 69 bronco and he said it was like a dream. would it be possible or even feesible to do twin turbos from a Nissan like you specified. And also,is that coming off a z car.

 

[wicked93gs]

the twin turbos on a z barely put out 280HP, an american v8 will blow the guts out of them, the VG32(I think that's the right engine code) has roughly 2 liters less displacement, I believe those turbos are T25s, much too small, they will choke the engine and die very shortly, you need at the very least 14b sized turbos, 16gs or 20gs are better for twins on a v8....or just get the turbo setup from any powerstroke(some are twins and some are singles, either way they will be big enough for a v8)

 

[mdriggers9662]

the twin turbos on a z barely put out 280HP, an american v8 will blow the guts out of them, the VG32(I think that's the right engine code) has roughly 2 liters less displacement, I believe those turbos are T25s, much too small, they will choke the engine and die very shortly, you need at the very least 14b sized turbos, 16gs or 20gs are better for twins on a v8....or just get the turbo setup from any powerstroke(some are twins and some are singles, either way they will be big enough for a v8)

You seem extremely knowledgable and thats what I need. " In your opinion ", do you like turbo or supercharge and why? And what do you have in your 66'?

 

[wicked93gs]

in my 66? its getting a 4.6L DOHC swap....eventually turbo, but that engine is enough of a project for now, no I have built over half a dozen other turbo cars though, I have no experience with superchargers so I cant give a qualified opinion on that front, I do know how they work though....its a constant parasitic loss for most superchargers out there...although there are some newer roots type with clutches(like the mini cooper) most superchargers are "always on" and boost is controlled by the size of the pulley, limiting the amount of boost you can effectively run, roots type superchargers tend to emphasize low end torque....which is almost worthless in a v8 to me, v8s already have plenty of that, while centrufigal superchargers emphasize mid-high end power. I cant say, but I have heard of lag with centrufigal units...which i can see when running high boost levels. One other major downside to a supercharger is that it takes horsepower to run it, whereas turbos run off of otherwise wasted exhaust energy, the only downside to turbos is lag if you choose one too big for the application(this can be minimized with ball bearings and VNT turbine housings, other neat little tricks), turbos are geared toward mid-high end which to me makes them a perfect choice for a v8, which already has low end enough, more power down low just translates to wheelspin....also the ultimate HP goal should also be a factor in your decision...turbos make more. One big advantage superchargers have however is an increase in your entire powerband....which can be good...they also allow the use of headers, it all depends on the driving characteristics you want and what your goals are

 

[mdriggers9662]

in my 66? its getting a 4.6L DOHC swap....eventually turbo, but that engine is enough of a project for now, no I have built over half a dozen other turbo cars though, I have no experience with superchargers so I cant give a qualified opinion on that front, I do know how they work though....its a constant parasitic loss for most superchargers out there...although there are some newer roots type with clutches(like the mini cooper) most superchargers are "always on" and boost is controlled by the size of the pulley, limiting the amount of boost you can effectively run, roots type superchargers tend to emphasize low end torque....which is almost worthless in a v8 to me, v8s already have plenty of that, while centrufigal superchargers emphasize mid-high end power. I cant say, but I have heard of lag with centrufigal units...which i can see when running high boost levels. One other major downside to a supercharger is that it takes horsepower to run it, whereas turbos run off of otherwise wasted exhaust energy, the only downside to turbos is lag if you choose one too big for the application(this can be minimized with ball bearings and VNT turbine housings, other neat little tricks), turbos are geared toward mid-high end which to me makes them a perfect choice for a v8, which already has low end enough, more power down low just translates to wheelspin....also the ultimate HP goal should also be a factor in your decision...turbos make more. One big advantage superchargers have however is an increase in your entire powerband....which can be good...they also allow the use of headers, it all depends on the driving characteristics you want and what your goals are

I saw some pics the other nite on a thread where someone mounted their shortie headers upside down and plummed their turbo from there. Is that a common practice?

 

[rhyno9]

go spend some time on Mike's Home Page or The Turbo Forums.com to get some of the basics

 

[brianj5600]

Look at the fuel system on the Capri. That is the low buck version and it worked. $500 would be tough, but $1000 would be doable if you do your homework. It might look cobbled together too.

 

[mdriggers9662]

Look at the fuel system on the Capri. That is the low buck version and it worked. $500 would be tough, but $1000 would be doable if you do your homework. It might look cobbled together too.

did you do that version on yours anf if so what year and engine size if it matters. Im as familiar with mer. capris as i am with turbos.

 

[mikethebike]

the twin turbos on a z barely put out 280HP, an american v8 will blow the guts out of them, the VG32(I think that's the right engine code) has roughly 2 liters less displacement, I believe those turbos are T25s, much too small, they will choke the engine and die very shortly, you need at the very least 14b sized turbos, 16gs or 20gs are better for twins on a v8....or just get the turbo setup from any powerstroke(some are twins and some are singles, either way they will be big enough for a v8)

100% agreement.....but why bother with all that turbo stuff when you can just build a very affordable 450 hp stroked 351?

 

[mdriggers9662]

100% agreement.....but why bother with all that turbo stuff when you can just build a very affordable 450 hp stroked 351?

For starters, I have 3 engines already sitting in my shop to choose from. 2 302's and a 289. Will probably just build up the 289 fairly stout and be done with it but want to keep my options open. Like the hidden power and good looks of some turbo and super projects I have seen but Im tieing up enough money in this car already and cant go spend $3000 to $5000 on a complete unit.

 

[brianj5600]

did you do that version on yours anf if so what year and engine size if it matters. Im as familiar with mer. capris as i am with turbos.

I had a little more room in the budget and sprung for an a1000 pump and regulator. With fittings, filters and all it was getting closer to 1k. That does not mean it can't be done for much less. Here is most everything about mine. 1967 Mustang Coupe 351w Single t-70 Now with video from 8-8

 

[wicked93gs]

personally I would like to see a good fuel system for less than $1000, just for your info I consider the ECU part of the fuel system. There are ways to do it, yes, but you get into used parts of questionable integrity. For instance, you can go dig 8 nissan top feed injectors out of the junkyard, modify them to flow 56ish lbs/hr, but can you really trust an injector out of the junkyard? lets see, in the neon... I had...56lb injectors($350 if you buy them new) Megsquirt($400) warlboro 255LPH pump($109) aeromotive 1:1 FPR($140) SS braided line from fuel rail to FPR($30) misc fuel injection hose, clamps and fittings for modifying the stock canister($100) and fuel filter($20) so...grand total $1149....and the fuel injection hose was pretty cheap....all that really should have been SS braided stuff...I would add in a couple hundred for a good system on a v8....you can not count the ECU(megasquirt) if it makes you feel better

 

[kttrucks]

THe question of " why not just build a 4oo HP V8 and not bother with the turbo or supercharger" will be answered if you ever drive a forced induction car or truck. Ther's something primal about the feeling of a turbo kicking in or the constant increace in torque through the powerband with a supoercharger... My 66 is getting a 4.6 Terminator drivetrane. Yes its alot of work... but if you really build ( or have built) a stout race engine it'll cost you...... To me the seat of the pants feeling is worth going down the road of forced induction.... Even if the same dollars were spent on each... the driveability of a fuel injected forced induction setup alone would make the decision for me over a twitchy N/A engine.

Just my opionion based on my experience. I realize I'm preachin to the choir here, but one guy did bring up this arguement...

KT.

 

[mikethebike]

THe question of " why not just build a 4oo HP V8 and not bother with the turbo or supercharger" will be answered if you ever drive a forced induction car or truck. Ther's something primal about the feeling of a turbo kicking in or the constant increace in torque through the powerband with a supoercharger... My 66 is getting a 4.6 Terminator drivetrane. Yes its alot of work... but if you really build ( or have built) a stout race engine it'll cost you...... To me the seat of the pants feeling is worth going down the road of forced induction.... Even if the same dollars were spent on each... the driveability of a fuel injected forced induction setup alone would make the decision for me over a twitchy N/A engine.

Just my opionion based on my experience. I realize I'm preachin to the choir here, but one guy did bring up this arguement...

KT.

PRIMAL??? seat-of-the-pants???? Try a 1966 SS-427 Chevelle, 2.78 1st gear big input shaft top-loader, 4.30 posi unit, 850 double-pumper, Accell dual coil igniton, hooker super comps, ZL-1 rotating assembly, Crane solid roller cam and rockers with titaninum valves. Vertical-gate shifter/line-lock. We shifted at 7800 and ran 11.80's at Suffolk in 1970 on Mohawks. That was with me at the wheel...Sox could take about .6 off that.
The engine made close to 500 lb.ft. at 5k...and from 1500 on up you could barely pull yourself away from the seat back. If anyone builds that kind of power from a stock block 289 or 302 it won't last long.

 

[Shakin66]

Hmm, Well thats awesome, no doubt it was a kick in the pants. But having said that lets see you drive that car to the beach with the kids or to work everyday like I do my blown 347. I understand that the power isnt the same but as previously stated there isnt many things that sound as good as a blower at 5 grand. I was a gearhead back in the early 80's and watched my brother spend a lot of cash and time with his head under the hood with smoke pouring all over the place adjusting valves on his solid lifter cam....Which BTW isnt as aggresive as my roller Hyd. I have now. My brother is amazed at the power my car has and laughs about all that they used to do to get maybe 300HP...And mine will sit and idle all day and never overheat. Power adders are here to stay and for good reason. They make great power numbers cheaper with better drivability.

 

[10secgoal]

Don't know anyone who has ever been in a boosted car that would go any other way. Only consider going back when they get frustrated with the tune. Never been in a 500 hp BB that could roast the tires at 60mph.

 

[brianj5600]

The torque of a turbo car is very addictive. With the right converter, gobs of torque is always at your right foot. My car went 6.93 in the 1/8 last summer with a small hydraulic flat tappet,3.08 gear and 3000 converter. Try that with a normally aspirated small block. I am not sure it would be too easy with a big block.

As far as EFI, while it is nice, I like my classic to be somewhat classic. I have 2 other cars with EFI and they are great for commuting, but they have no personality. I can't explain it. I got my carb working really well and the only time it is noticeably different is on cold start. With info available on the net and affordable WBO2's with data logging it is possible to tune a carb economy, drivability and power. I am by no means a carb expert, but there is some carb experts on a couple sites that helped me through the tuning process. I am sure I will be hitting them up for more answers this summer with changes I am making to my combo.