New Track Times

[Black95GTS]

I ran mid 13s with a street heat intake, stock heads, the stock cam retarded 4 degrees, all bolt ons, my own TwEECed tune, basically stock suspension, on slicks and skinnies. Also without a serpentine belt and icing the intake.

Mid 13s from a full heads, cam, and intake swap on a 302 are not par for the course nor should the driver getting those times be complacent with them.

I don't understand how increasing the size of your heads, in effect raising the power band, will help you in a car where you need more gear to get into the power band you already have. The sweet spot on these cars (any N/A car) is so small, you have to dial it in if 1/4 mile performance is what you want.

Adam

 

[Venom351R]

Uh dude, read the graph. Your peak hp is about 5,600-5,700. What the cam sheet says corresponds to what the graph is saying. Your peak torque is about 4,400. Make sense now??

You NEED higher shift points and you NEED 4.30's if you want this thing to run what its capable of. End of discussion. Now if you do not care about getting it to run ideally, then leave it alone.

You need to go back and look at the graph again. Im not making more power at 5700 then I am at 4500. its a STREET car Im not putting 4.30's in it I just enjoy going to the track. The peak is at 4,500-5,000 it levels off, it drops off by 30 HP and TQ by 5,700. The peak is not at 5,700. Your looking at the wrong lines on the graph

With 4.10's I would be crossing the line at 6,200 RPM according to the calculations, why the hell would I need 4.30's

I don't understand how increasing the size of your heads, in effect raising the power band, will help you in a car where you need more gear to get into the power band you already have. The sweet spot on these cars (any N/A car) is so small, you have to dial it in if 1/4 mile performance is what you want.

Adam

I dont want bigger heads for anything to do w/ RPM's at the end of the track, I want bigger heads b/c I know it will make more power then what its putting out now.

 

[Venom351R]

I would have to agree here. I was thinking 4.30's. 4.10's would be a waste. NOW, if you are more concerned about street then leave it and be happy. I think I'll stop here tho on this thread...some "interesting" commenting tho.

Would you want to travel 90 miles to the track all highway w/ 4.30's? Didn't think so.

 

[Grn92LX]

You are making appx 280hp at 4,500 rpm. You are making your 338hp peak at appx 5600/5700. YOU are the one that needs to learn to read your own graph. You are looking at the torque graph and thinking its the horsepower graph.. lol! Everyone can see it, I don't know what makes it so difficult for you?

Thats fine, if you are ok with it running what it does, then leave it. 4.30s would make a NICE difference at the track. I had them in my STREET car and it was fine.

 

[Venom351R]

Thats fine, if you are ok with it running what it does, then leave it. 4.30s would make a NICE difference at the track. I had them in my STREET car and it was fine.

Good for you, that's your situation and it does not work for me. Im fine w/ 4.10's, Im not doing 4.30's. Crossing the line at 6,200 is plenty of RPM for a push rod engine w/ out a high revving valve train.

So what am I giving up by not going to 4.30's? Whats my ceiling go to be that I wont be able to break through as far as times go

 

[revhead347]

I'm with you Venom. I think the optimum shifting point for that car is around 6000rpms. Probably not a good idea to go over 6500 with a stock block anyway. I'd stick with the gears you have, and just get some bigger heads. That way the engine will "grow into" the gears, and you will have a nice streetable car.

Kurt

 

[Killercanary]

Wow, there is so much stuff in this thread that I disagree with that I'd type a book if I tried to counter it all. I'll try to keep it simple.

Travis, based on your replies I really think you are looking at your graph wrong. If you keep your car in the RPM range marked in red below you WILL be faster. Since you will be 4th gear for nearly the last 1/2 of the track, a steeper rear gear will get you closer to the top of the red line and allow you to use all of it before you cross the finish line. That will equate to better times and trap speed.

Heads are not needed... keeping the car in the range and using this range in all 4 gears is the key to running the times that car is capable of. Your AFR185's are the last thing that car needs changed at this point.

I don't understand how increasing the size of your heads, in effect raising the power band, will help you in a car where you need more gear to get into the power band you already have. The sweet spot on these cars (any N/A car) is so small, you have to dial it in if 1/4 mile performance is what you want.

Well said Adam!


I have more to add... I just don't have time at the moment. Travis, I'd be happy to talk to you one on one about this as I think your car has SO much more potential based on that graph and your combo. It might just be a combo of different little things that are adding up to a big hold back. I really think that combo is a SOLID low 12 second setup that should be trapping 112-115mph, we just need to find out why it isn't.... and it is NOT the heads. Like I said, I made 380rwhp with my pedestal mount AFR 165 60cc heads and my old 302 based FTI cam with my 8.9:1 compression 331. Speaking of compression, do not get hung up on static compression as dynamic compression is far more important. Also, I run an old school TKO trans in my car and on the dyno I only recall seeing a 2-3ftlb loss of TQ after switching to it from my T5, these were not back to back dyno runs but they were on the same dyno. This was done a LONG time ago.

FWIW- I ran 12.7 at 107mph with 293rwhp/327rwtq in my heavy 'vert at my local track that's elevation is 1250' above sea level. This was pre-suspension/weight loss and on 245-50-16 nitto drag radials. You have more potential than what you are seeing, but that is a good thing!

 

[Pokageek]

Would you want to travel 90 miles to the track all highway w/ 4.30's? Didn't think so.

LOL. Don't flame me, I am just suggesting what I would go with if it were a track car. Now, 4.30's would work with my trans bc I have a super hwy 5th gear so yes, I would. But again, your car is your car. There is no wrong or right answer, only optimum for track vs street. People who are strictly track dont give a rats $%^ how many miles they drive, they'll trailer it.

 

[revhead347]

What Killercanary said in simpler terms. You can put taller gears on your car to make it work with the engine you have. Or, if you don't want taller gears, you can put more head on top of the engine to make it work better with the gear you have. But I thought that's what we spent 3 pages talking about.

Kurt

 

[Grn92LX]

More cylinder head would make his lack of gear problem worse. Gear it properly if you want the times, leave it if you don't care. I don't why it took 3 pages of nonsense to figure out something so basic

 

[revhead347]

I should rephrase then. If you like the gears you have, you have to find a way to get the engine to make more power to work with a shorter gear. Getting a better performing combination, including bigger heads, and cam can help the engine grow into the gears you have. Since you already have a custom cam, and the bottom end is what it is, I figured what I said is just logical. I see what you are saying about bigger heads making the problem worse though, seeing as you have to rev the engine up higher to make more power, and therefore requiring a taller gear. I give up.

Kurt

 

[Venom351R]

I appreciate all the help and advise that you guys are offering but there is one thing all of you are ignoring that I have stated 3 times now and I will again b/c apparently no one is listening.


I dont want bigger heads b/c of anything to do w/ the RPM range. I know that changing the heads and RPM at the end of the track have nothing in common. the only reason I am thinking of changing heads is b/c of the pure power aspect of it. I think my engine has a lot more in it w/ long tubes and bigger size heads but no one has yet to give any insight on if swapping to a 205cc head is worth it just based on the power aspect of it being if I would pick up enough power to make it worth it. That would be porting the lower, switching to an accufab TB fox set up and adding a 205cc head.

I dont mind being given advise as in a way to put me in the right direction but everyone seems to think my reason for wanting to do a head change has something to do w/ RPM's at the end of the track

I dont mind changing gears that's not an issue.

 

[Venom351R]

Wow, there is so much stuff in this thread that I disagree with that I'd type a book if I tried to counter it all. I'll try to keep it simple.

Travis, based on your replies I really think you are looking at your graph wrong. If you keep your car in the RPM range marked in red below you WILL be faster. Since you will be 4th gear for nearly the last 1/2 of the track, a steeper rear gear will get you closer to the top of the red line and allow you to use all of it before you cross the finish line. That will equate to better times and trap speed.


Heads are not needed... keeping the car in the range and using this range in all 4 gears is the key to running the times that car is capable of. Your AFR185's are the last thing that car needs changed at this point.




Well said Adam!


I have more to add... I just don't have time at the moment. Travis, I'd be happy to talk to you one on one about this as I think your car has SO much more potential based on that graph and your combo. It might just be a combo of different little things that are adding up to a big hold back. I really think that combo is a SOLID low 12 second setup that should be trapping 112-115mph, we just need to find out why it isn't.... and it is NOT the heads. Like I said, I made 380rwhp with my pedestal mount AFR 165 60cc heads and my old 302 based FTI cam with my 8.9:1 compression 331. Speaking of compression, do not get hung up on static compression as dynamic compression is far more important. Also, I run an old school TKO trans in my car and on the dyno I only recall seeing a 2-3ftlb loss of TQ after switching to it from my T5, these were not back to back dyno runs but they were on the same dyno. This was done a LONG time ago.

FWIW- I ran 12.7 at 107mph with 293rwhp/327rwtq in my heavy 'vert at my local track that's elevation is 1250' above sea level. This was pre-suspension/weight loss and on 245-50-16 nitto drag radials. You have more potential than what you are seeing, but that is a good thing!

Thanks paul

If yoiu pulled those numbers on 165cc heads on a 331 they why am I not at least in that area as well? Big difference between 340-380 RWHP

 

[YEAHLOH95]

ok here is my opinion which you have stated already , long tubes , port lower and bigger throttle body then go back to track , i don't see your heads as a restriction or you would have more torque than hp and your dyno gragh doesnt show that . i am biulding a 351 now and hope to make over 400 to wheels with it

 

[95Vert]

Troy, with the right h/c/i combo, that shouldn't be too hard.

Just for the record, I never said the AFR were the restriction, but I DID say that Tricflows are better, and I stand by my statement.

Everything else has been discussed and Venom can do whatever he 'thinks' is best or makes him happy.

Good Luck!

 

[jromeo]

my 2 cents
I feel your track times are right on with your dyno sheet.
but I also feel your car should be making more hp with your combo.
If I were you I would find out why its not making the hp it should be making before I buy the other heads.I no my hollys lower intake ports were way bigger than my afr185s ports, so the air is hitting a brick wall before going into the heads. A simple gasket matching will fix this. I would think the trick flow R ports are the same size if not bigger than the hollys. But if you have the cash and want to spend it , buy the 205 heads, make sure the ports match and hope that the problem isn't in somethink else.
I do think the trickflow heads will make more hp, but the afrs would make the same or more with a little work for way less money.
good luck on your nice ride.

 

[95Vert]

...

 

[Venom351R]

my 2 cents
I feel your track times are right on with your dyno sheet.
but I also feel your car should be making more hp with your combo.
If I were you I would find out why its not making the hp it should be making before I buy the other heads.I no my hollys lower intake ports were way bigger than my afr185s ports, so the air is hitting a brick wall before going into the heads. A simple gasket matching will fix this. I would think the trick flow R ports are the same size if not bigger than the hollys. But if you have the cash and want to spend it , buy the 205 heads, make sure the ports match and hope that the problem isn't in somethink else.
I do think the trickflow heads will make more hp, but the afrs would make the same or more with a little work for way less money.
good luck on your nice ride.

Well that's my feeling too. I figured a 351 H/C/I (custom cam) set up would pull more then 340 to the wheels. I know I can benefit from long tubes but that's not my only issue. That's why the head issue keeps coming up for me. I should be pulling well north of 350 and like I said the head discussion has nothing to do w/ my RPM at the end of the track, I just want to me making the power I should be making w/ a H/C/I 351W that's why I was saying that maybe these heads are not even 2.02/1.60 valves and I have no idea of what the cc size is either.

 

[Grn92LX]

Ask Ed's opinion what different heads will do with the cam he designed for you. I personally would continue working with what you have as opposed to dropping $2000 on the cnc trickflows.

 

[Pokageek]

Thanks paul

If yoiu pulled those numbers on 165cc heads on a 331 they why am I not at least in that area as well? Big difference between 340-380 RWHP

He said his Trans may be less parasitic..cam....other mods unknown. Remember, KC is a quarter-miler with some heavy experience on all angles including the build of the car. He also knows some heavy hitters like Rick at R&H and I am sure he has the best of the best in terms of advice and parts.