More Power Basic Info Thread

[final5-0]

some answers from the man with all the smilies

to answer your question where ive been....bought a house a few months ago and now it seems like every weekend im trying to accomplish things there. got my original hardwoods refinished, repainted the WHOLE house, repairs, moved furniture, etc....phew. but i have enjoyed working on it. seeing progress is rewarding.

Yes Sir

I do understand about the difference between a home and a car

You can always play around with a different car later on when
priorities are taken care of and funds become available

Grady

 

[94GTCoupe]

Posted via Mobile Device
Grady,i've got a question.
not sure if this is the place for it,but what is the real benifit of the fox throttle body conversion for our cars?
i've read that,through independent test,our intake imposes a torque output penalty of less than 1 percent,compared to the fox body intake setup.
horsepower is roughly the same range.
but some people swear by the conversion.
is there any hard data proving or disproving this mod?
is it worth it?

 

[Bullitt95]

I put a focus in the quote about what I believe is of most importance

Let me get right to the point

A blower seems to cure the issue of
The maximum gain for the least buck spent

Sure ... A blower is not for everybody
but
It really does offer some things that should at least be considered :Word:

Grady

I had the same thought Grady. For the cost of a heads/cam upgrade that'll only get me up to about 290rwhp, I could instead go for a Vortech 8psi supercharger that'll raise output to about 350rwhp. Since my smog pump is gone, I have plenty of space under the hood to fit it.

 

[final5-0]

Posted via Mobile Device
Grady,i've got a question.
not sure if this is the place for it,but what is the real benifit of the fox throttle body conversion for our cars?
i've read that,through independent test,our intake imposes a torque output penalty of less than 1 percent,compared to the fox body intake setup.
horsepower is roughly the same range.
but some people swear by the conversion.
is there any hard data proving or disproving this mod?
is it worth it?

Well Harvey

You've done gone and opened up a ... Big Ole Can O Worms

I'll give you my opinion on this mod
and
If anybody wants to throw in their O ... well ... Let em fly

I could not affirm or dispute about the test you have read

To this very day ... NA ONLY ... I've yet to see hard data of a gain

Now ... I'm talkin power gain ... NOT ... Appearance or Bling Factor

Yes ... Like everybody else ... I've seen much talk about it
but
I can boil it down to these two topics peeps seem to focus in on

1) improved throttle response
2) a very touchy skinny pedal after the conversion

Let me point out something that is often overlooked

Our original tb ... GT & Cobra ... have a cam on the tb blade

The Fox tb has no such cam

The cam opens the throttle with a more controlled or gradual action
where as
The non cam Fox is a 1 to 1 kinda deal

It is my thinking that peeps are mislead by that difference and believe
the quicker opening on the Fox tb is evidence of a gain

Have you ever considered what might offer restriction to airflow

Well ... It is a given ... bends would have to offer restriction :Word:

If you look at the bend of the orginal SN elbow and the bend of the Fox
setup

Well ... I'll just ask for opinions .......
What difference do you folk see between em

Grady

 

[94GTCoupe]

Grady,i like worms

theres no doubt that the fox setup looks much better than ours.
especially when you go to an aftermarket intake manifold.some of those intake elbows look pretty bulky.

but like you,i'm looking for power gains.
looks come second to power.

looking at the fox and 94-95,the fox looks to take a more severe turn into the intake.whereas the 94-95 takes a softer turn.

maybe someone out there has some back to back dyno graphs,before and after the conversion?

 

[turbogt]

What happens when you peg the factory MAF???







I'm positive I'm pegging mine at about 5400 RPM when the car starts to surge pretty bad... My AFR doesn't really go as lean as I would expect it to, although I don't really suspect my car would need a whole lot more fuel above 5400 as it does at 5400.....







I don't want to buy parts twice, and I plan to run speed density on my AEM setup, so I just don't take it above 5500

 

[final5-0]

What happens when you peg the factory MAF???







I'm positive I'm pegging mine at about 5400 RPM when the car starts to surge pretty bad... My AFR doesn't really go as lean as I would expect it to, although I don't really suspect my car would need a whole lot more fuel above 5400 as it does at 5400.....







I don't want to buy parts twice, and I plan to run speed density on my AEM setup, so I just don't take it above 5500

As for pegging the meter

If you can datalog maf volts, it would be easy to see if you are reaching 5v which is the max voltage input from the meter the pcm can deal with

As for what happens when you peg the meter

I can't say I've got the answer I feel is 100% correct

It might be possible the pcm does something to protect things if that
happens so you can see that might change things

however

Assuming the above does not happen

Lets use our common sense to flesh out what might happen

Say we reach 5v at 5K rpm with a 6K rpm redline

At 5K our pulsewidth to airflow is gonna be OK

As we go beyond 5K, we pass more airflow ... that is a given

Since we have gone above what we can accurately set a relationship
with between airflow and maf v output

Seems like you would go lean as pulsewidth can grow no larger but
airflow continues to grow larger and larger as rpm's climb

Grady

 

[Bullitt95]

Lets use our common sense to flesh out what might happen

Say we reach 5v at 5K rpm with a 6K rpm redline

At 5K our pulsewidth to airflow is gonna be OK

As we go beyond 5K, we pass more airflow ... that is a given

Since we have gone above what we can accurately set a relationship
with between airflow and maf v output

Seems like you would go lean as pulsewidth can grow no larger but
airflow continues to grow larger and larger as rpm's climb

Grady

You are indeed correct sir!

 

[turbogt]

As for pegging the meter

If you can datalog maf volts, it would be easy to see if you are reaching 5v which is the max voltage input from the meter the pcm can deal with

As for what happens when you peg the meter

I can't say I've got the answer I feel is 100% correct

It might be possible the pcm does something to protect things if that
happens so you can see that might change things

however

Assuming the above does not happen

Lets use our common sense to flesh out what might happen

Say we reach 5v at 5K rpm with a 6K rpm redline

At 5K our pulsewidth to airflow is gonna be OK

As we go beyond 5K, we pass more airflow ... that is a given

Since we have gone above what we can accurately set a relationship
with between airflow and maf v output

Seems like you would go lean as pulsewidth can grow no larger but
airflow continues to grow larger and larger as rpm's climb

Grady

Well Grady.. Thats exactly what I thought..


That is using Common Sense..


But the difference in airflow from 5400 to 6000 is not enough to make me go too lean...


But this has yet to Explain why it is surging.....


AFR doesn't drop below 11.8:1 at 6K...

Its at 11:1 at 5400..

 

[fiveoho]

Yes Sir

I do understand about the difference between a home and a car

You can always play around with a different car later on when
priorities are taken care of and funds become available

Grady

priorities i guess...or lack of funds

anyway, like you said, i can have fun with my mustang ( or another mustang ) later on down the road when i get my house situation a little more settled.

thanks for the info & advice !

 

[final5-0]

Well Grady.. Thats exactly what I thought..


That is using Common Sense..


But the difference in airflow from 5400 to 6000 is not enough to make me go too lean...


But this has yet to Explain why it is surging.....


AFR doesn't drop below 11.8:1 at 6K...

Its at 11:1 at 5400..

I can tell you in the Cobra j4j1 file ... unlike the t4m0 GT file

There is a fuel enrichment kinda thing going on at high speed

IIRC It starts at 90 mph and adds fuel to the normal table

Don't know if that is what is causing the surge
but
It is all I can come up with at this time

Grady

 

[final5-0]

Anybody wanna shift the discussion over to using a power adder

Of course

This is more of a commitment or mandates more considerations than ...

simple bolt on stuff
or
h/c/i

Grady

 

[dutch5.0]

Since we are on the subject, and you seem like a very helpful guy Grady.. I give you my dillema:

Let's start with the fact that I'm not in America, and do NOT have access to any sort of dyno-tune as I have called every chiptune company in Holland and nobody knows anything about tuning mustangs, not even OBD2 let alone my OBD1.

Secondly, this car is my DD. Gas is expensive and parts are hard to come by. So everyday drivability/streetability and specially reliability are a big issue.

thirdly, I have strict emissions (cali style).

My goals are to have a fun streetcar with all the above taken into account.

From what I've read, this rules out:
- cam (emmission/drivability/tune)
- F/I (tune)
- EGR/smog delete (emmissions)
- anything wild N/A (tune)

What I have: 3.55's, catback, o/r H (easy swap for emmisions test), CAI, tune up.

What I was thinking about:
- cobra/gt40/edelbrock intake
- edelbrock performer heads
- shorties
- 65/70mm tb

I think that's about as far as I can go with no tune, am I right?
Also, would this REQUIRE fuelmods? if so, which?

My latest thought; would I be better off with a OBD2 new edge in my case?

your thoughts please

 

[final5-0]

I'd not know about how strict the smog laws are
but
You talk about aftermarket intakes and such

If you are willing to learn

Why not just self tune and then you are open to a whole bunch
of possibilities

Don't know how much hp you are talking about
but
With no cam & tune ... I'd ballpark about 275

Grady

 

[dutch5.0]

275 to the wheels would be very very nice. It's a year-round streetcar and daily, so nothing to ridonculous.

Aftermarket intakes should not affect smog right? I don't know how to compare our smoglaws to the states laws, let's just say I have to meet emmisions.

I've thought about self tune, megasquirt in particular. BUT, that means a lot of time and money and even more knowledge. So for the near future, not an option. Maybe if I still like the car in 2 years and have enough money for a good blower setup. But not for heads/intake.

What about fuel mods with heads/intake/tb/exhaust? Would the car desperatly need #24's and matching MAF? or AFPR, bigger pump? Or can I safely get away with the #19's?

 

[final5-0]

275 to the wheels would be very very nice. It's a year-round streetcar and daily, so nothing to ridonculous.

I based that estimate on a basic aftermarket h/c/i combo minus
a cam and tune

Aftermarket intakes should not affect smog right? I don't know how to compare our smoglaws to the states laws, let's just say I have to meet emmisions.

When talking emissions you usually gotta consider a couple things
1) Visual inspection
2) How clean you burn after bolting on your hot rod parts

The visual thing is just dependent upon your local laws
but
How clean you burn can be dealt with ... with a tune

I've thought about self tune, megasquirt in particular. BUT, that means a lot of time and money and even more knowledge. So for the near future, not an option. Maybe if I still like the car in 2 years and have enough money for a good blower setup. But not for heads/intake.

Yes ... seems to always be a decision that needs to be made

What about fuel mods with heads/intake/tb/exhaust? Would the car desperatly need #24's and matching MAF? or AFPR, bigger pump? Or can I safely get away with the #19's?

I like to be safe with fuel :Word:

You do need a pump with more push ...
I'd do a 190 or 255 intank

I'd run 24's

but

You could jack up the pressure on the OEM 19's with an afpr

Since you are trying to get around a tune .......
that might be the ticket ......
cause the meter and 19's will play nice together

Without a tune ... 24's would force you to go aftermarket meter
and
You could have issues there but not necessarily so

If you think about it
You are going for more power than a Cobra

Ford felt 19's were not adequate for it at less power than you seek

anyway

That OEM tb and meter would be fine for what power you seek

Grady

 

[dutch5.0]

thanks man, no visual inspections btw, just a sniffer.

 

[Mr_302]

back to basic basics. i was under the impression intake manifold was the way to go for a stock gt. then ppl started saying no thats adding tq not hp. then ppl said go with a chip. then no chip wont do anything without mods first. i need my car to be a dd so i cant do so much S*** that i get 3 mpg. i kinda need to stay where im at and get just enough more hp where im like " you got a stock motor you dont want it". so question would an intake manifold add that first little bit of noticable hp? and how much hp? and what kind is the best? . and if the chip is worth it for the mpg that it bumps you up by (2-4 im told but hey 26 mpg is better than 23). please dont talk cam, porting, 351w, ---> h/c/i <--( honestly i dont even know what that means) until the question posed has been highlighted. thank you and

 

[Bullitt95]

My most recent mod was to swap an Edelbrock Performer intake in place of my old stocker. The result was an extra 15rwhp, 7rwtq, and a gain of ~1mpg so the answer to your question is yes, an intake manifold swap is definitely worth doing. The only thing you have to decide is what your ultimate goal is going to be so you select the correct manifold for the job, but I can tell you the Performer has got it pretty well nailed and you really can't go wrong with it. The nice part is I also gained torque at the bottom end, not just higher up.

 

[Mr_302]

My most recent mod was to swap an Edelbrock Performer intake in place of my old stocker. The result was an extra 15rwhp, 7rwtq, and a gain of ~1mpg so the answer to your question is yes, an intake manifold swap is definitely worth doing. The only thing you have to decide is what your ultimate goal is going to be so you select the correct manifold for the job, but I can tell you the Performer has got it pretty well nailed and you really can't go wrong with it. The nice part is I also gained torque at the bottom end, not just higher up.

im looking for about 220-230 rwhp if the stock gt's get about 185 rwhp that kinda jump. most like i will not throw supercharger or turbo on anytime soon. I've always heard great things about edelbrock do you know what other intakes to compare with, that will give equal or greater proformance