Hey there! New guy with questions... if anyone has the time.

88RxTuner

New Member
Sep 30, 2009
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Hello. I know, I know.. Noob on board. Let me give you a little history.
I'm a ASE Master Tech.
I've been professionally working on "Imports" for about 9 years now.
I just got a 1986 Mustang, 5.0HO, automatic trans.

Yea, that whole "Imports" thing? Means just that... so, I succumb to the superior knowledge of those who have been there and done that. I'm competent, and I know a lot about a bunch of stuff, but just because I'm a Master Tech doesn't mean I know EVERYthing about ANYthing.. I realize this.

Here's the background. 1986 Mustang, 5.0l HO(factory equip) Automatic Trans, 4-lug axles (I guess this makes a difference?)
Got it, drove it a little. Here comes problem 1, it bucks when you crack the throttle. Like crack the throttle a little bit, sometimes it farts, sometimes it dies. Open the throttle more than 1/4, it leaves rubber and does not buck OR fart. My first inclination was TPS, checked it according to range charts, tested OK. Replaced it anyway based on symptoms. Did NOT fix. Second inclination, MAP sensor, being this is MAP not Mass Air system. (keep in mind, this is "import logic" speaking) Checked vacuum line where it runs out of the plenum, seems OK to me, checked MAP sensor against range charts, once again, seems OK to me.

Went to have it smogged (pre-tested) and it missed idle HC by about 30ppm. Tested 152ppm, limit 130ppm. It has a slight roughness at idle, ONLY at idle, sounds kind of like a lopey cam in it, but there is no big cam in it, all stock... once off idle and past the "buck and fart" at 1%-10% throttle, it runs like a mashed cat with it's tail on fire.
2500rpm HC was 23ppm, limit in CA is 150. Flying colors. Something is wrong here, at idle, where it is running too rich and has a slight lope, and goes away over 2000rpm and cleans up.

Anyone have any input??? Please, Need to have something to chase without spending hours and hours changing my "mindset" so to speak...

SECOND problem. Drove it, noticed nasty noise in rear end, diagnosed diff taking a crap... (previously abused vehicle...) Not surprised... but what interchanges with this?
I'm assuming from research that it's the 7.5" diff... Is the 4-lug 8.8" a bolt in, or are there bracket or mounting point differences? If so, Does the 8.8" interchange from anything besides another Mustang?

YES, I used the "Search" button. I came up with lots of how to's, but not any DEFINITE info as to what 8.8" or 7.5" interchange out of what car... Maybe I'm just not searching for the right thing?

Hopefully one of you "Guru's" out there will have a little sympathy for my situation, I need this smogged, running well and need to have the rear end changed out within a couple weeks.. I have the time to do it, but not a lot of money, and very limited resources (small town) which is why I'm asking for interchanges... I called around and it seems like anything that starts with "Mustang" has a premium price tag on it...

Thanks in advance. I'm reasonably comptetent, but as stated, I don't know everything about anything...
88RxTuner

PS... Anyone need any Subaru work done? :D
 
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Hi!

Some suggestions
1) Change your user name! :)


2) IMHO, people that post stupid thread with stupid titles often get the stupid replies that they deserve. :)
So, if you're going to start a thread, make the title useful! :)


3) Sounds like you have the basic covered in trying to solve the problem in an EFI car. So, what you're looking for are "known/typical" problem areas in 5.0's that aren't identified by a code scan. So, in that case, you've come to the right place. :)


4) PLEASE don't get me started on the TPS. As an ASE tech, you hopefully know that that the TPS does SQUAT IN ALL EFI APPLICATIONS!!! IMHO, it's a typical ricer mod/fix. However, TPS units do go bad. And, when they "get noisy" they can/will cause problems. However, the Ford TPS units are pretty good. An aftermarket TPS unit is often cr*p.


5) Going by typical problems in 5.0's, and what you've done, you "likely" have one of two problems:
A) Sticky IAC/IAB. It sticks from the carbon from the EGR gasses, and from wear.
B) Sticky EGR.


IMHO, it's a good idea to replace them with FORD units if they are old/orig, or non Ford. *I* would suggest doing that right off.


6) '86 GT's came with the 8.8" rear-end. Others can tell you how to identify the rear end.


7) '86 GTs did NOT COME WITH ANY BRAKES AT ALL FROM THE FACTORY! Really! They are FOR SHOW ONLY. IMHO, the ONLY way to stop a pre-87 Stang with OEM brakes is to open the door, and drag your foot. Those POS OEM brakes are a DEATH TRAP!! I strongly suggest that you upgrade to at least the '87 11" brakes. It's a very cheap and easy upgrade. IMHO, the 87-93 brakes still SUCK BIG TIME! But, at least the slow the car down a little.


8) If someone tells you that their 5.0 "idles nice", then
A) They have less than 3 working brain cells
B) They are so high on crack, they don't even know what planet they are on.
C) They are they typical totally clueless teenage ricer that doesn't even know which end of the spark plug screws into the block.

8B) ALL 5.0's have a lobe-y (sp?) idle. The SD 5.0's ALL have hunting idle problems!! It just varies how bad and how often the hunting is.


9) Just about ALL SD 5.0's have off idle issues in some/many/most conditions. It depends a LOT on many conditions. Just because some idiot in LA that drives their car only on perfect days doesn't "seem" to have problems, mean ***** to the 99.9999% of the other Stangs out there that have to deal with different temps, air pressures, trim adjustments, etc.

Still, compared to a carb on that engine, the SD setup does a SUPER MEGA kick *SS job! Consider that the EFI setup and components on that '86 is about 25 years old, and still "runs okay" enough to drive! Try doing that with a carb! However, compared to the Camry EFI system, the 5.) EFI setup is rough, hunts, and so on. Yea, so what. Ever drive a car with dual 4 barrels, a a tri-dual carb setup? :) My '77 Cutlass had a "3/4 race cam" and ran like total cr*p. I had to use high leak down Roads lifters to have that engine run. Yup, "back in the old days", that's what we had to do.

The point is that the SD EFI setup is far from great. But, it still does a kick *ss job for the technology at the time, and for the cost to Ford at the time. Figure that Ford saved ~$10 per EFI computer back in the late 80's verses GM. Now, multiply that by the number of cars they sold per year. And, all of a sudden, you'll see why even though the Ford EFI setup was far from great, it made a sense (and cents $$). :)


BTW:
My '86 Stang:
Mustang 86 - Mach1 Springs


Also:
FOUR EYES RULE!! :)
FOUR EYES RULE!! :)
 
have you tried checking the o2 sensors? i had a pair go bad on my this summer, and it caused a similar part throttle problem like you are describing
 
Stang:

1: Thanks for the insight... Stang's cool, but got to stay true to my school...
2: I expected at least a couple stupid replies in with the useful info... That's usually how it works.
3: That's precisely why I'm here... I figure with all these people sharing information about one type of vehicle, there should be some useful information, hints, tips, tricks and other fixes for "known" problems that may otherwise take me forever to research and diagnose. Not that I'm against diag, but I'm also not against learning a faster better way to do it.
4: re: Typical Ricer Fix ... << has lots of experience in "ricers"... seen lots of import TPS problems cause symptoms like what I have, bucking right off idle as soon as you crack the throttle. But, once again, different beast, thanks for the tip (Ford units are pretty good...)
5: Sticy IAC will cause stall on throttle opening? Throttle closing, I'd think... I'll check it anyway. EGR valve itself seems to function normally, nearly stalls engine when sucked open, but does not receive any vacuum from solenoid. Have yet to diag this one.
6: Thanks. I'll snoop around some more.
7: Yup...Found this one out myself. :eek:
8: Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesnt. I know what "nice" is for domestics... This engine is all stock, perfect compression across the board, and lopes sometimes and not others. When it lopes it stalls when you open the throttle. When it idles "Nice" it wont stall when you open the throttle.
9: In closed loop, shouldnt it self calibrate? We're not talking about driving up a mountain, changing elevations... sitting in my shop, stationary and surges up and down, sometimes chuggles, etc. and sometimes idles beautifully.

Once again, off idle, it runs just grand. No problems except some tire vibration when cruising (Oh, yea, and the rear end screaming for help)

STRTRCR, pulled codes... Nothing shown.
Fresh Oil. Fresh Tune Up, plugs, wires, fuel and air filter, new dizzy cap and rotor, etc. prior to smog... Thanks though!
Havent been able to check fuel pressure yet, Dont suspect it as a problem due to the "runs like mashed cat on fire" thing past 1/4 throttle, and ideal smog report at 2500rpm...

90LX, checked o2 sens with dvom, banging back and forth.. except when it chuggles, then goes rich for a little bit.

MUSTANG, pulled codes... didnt come up with anything.

Going to try and get my hands on a MODIS and test the rest of the sensors more thoroughly, I guess...

Thanks for the input.
 
I wouln't rule out fuel pressure... I decreased my fuel pressure by 4 Lbs (from 44 to 40) last week and it started doing exactly what your car is doing. Are you getting the popping sound from the intake when it skips? I upped the pressure to where it was before and part throttle problems vanished...
 
Here's the background. 1986 Mustang, 5.0l HO(factory equip) Automatic Trans, 4-lug axles (I guess this makes a difference?)
Got it, drove it a little. Here comes problem 1, it bucks when you crack the throttle. Like crack the throttle a little bit, sometimes it farts, sometimes it dies. Open the throttle more than 1/4, it leaves rubber and does not buck OR fart. My first inclination was TPS, checked it according to range charts, tested OK. Replaced it anyway based on symptoms. Did NOT fix. Second inclination, MAP sensor, being this is MAP not Mass Air system. (keep in mind, this is "import logic" speaking) Checked vacuum line where it runs out of the plenum, seems OK to me, checked MAP sensor against range charts, once again, seems OK to me.


Okay, i'll tackle bits and peices. All 86 Mustangs were 4.lug..and all V8's got an 8.8 axle. As for the farting, not quite sure i understand the analogy. It bogs? Or stumbles? I just need a little more clarification on what it does.



SECOND problem. Drove it, noticed nasty noise in rear end, diagnosed diff taking a crap... (previously abused vehicle...) Not surprised... but what interchanges with this?
I'm assuming from research that it's the 7.5" diff... Is the 4-lug 8.8" a bolt in, or are there bracket or mounting point differences? If so, Does the 8.8" interchange from anything besides another Mustang?

Yes, but the question is what do you want to do? ANy axle housing from an 1986 to 1998 V8 Mustangs is a direct swap. The brakes are different as 1994+ got disks and 5-lug. Do you want to convert to 5-lug and disk brakes all around? If so, nows the time to consider this option. You can also find an 87-88 t-bird turbo coupe rear axle and have rear 4-lug disk brakes. You actually have quite a few ioptions, but if you just want to keep the drum stock setup, any 86-93 Mustang V8 8.8 is a direct swap on.

PS... Anyone need any Subaru work done? :D

What? Subarus never break! They are imports!




How much of a tune-up have you given this car? Have you gone through the basics and checked out the simple stuff? Replaced fuel filter, checked spark plugs (5.0's hate platnium plugs) checked cap and rotor, checked fuel pressure, cleaned the TB and IAC? Also, check the EGR, make sure it's clean and the plunger does move when vacuum is applied.

Has the car been modified by the previous owner? A lot of times, PO's make silly mods that they think work, but really hurt performance or just make no sense at all.
 
Hey, guys. Thanks for all your input.

The car is unmolested, bone stock and will stay that way.
"Any 86-98 rear housing will interchange" and "87-88 t-bird turbo coupe rear axle have rear 4-lug disk brakes." is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you again. I will be in search of a suitable rear end. I do not want to upgrade, just pull and install a stock factory 4-lug rear end that does not scream for help when you drive it. I'm assuming the 4 lugs stopped in 93? I don't plan on racing, hot-rodding, or otherwise abusing this car, it's just a DD... And I dont really want to spend the time or have the money to upgrade, modify, rebuild, etc.

Will the T-Bird disc brakes require any modification to the hydraulic system (lines, valving, master cyl, etc) if I happen to come across that one?

Figured out the stumble thing. As it happens the EGR position sensor was shorted internally, showing the ECM 4.7v all the time. This would indicate that the EGR valve was wide open when it wasn't, which I'm sure cause the ECM to manipulate fuel settings differently, leading to the stumble right off idle.

Replaced the EGR position sensor and all is well, "normal" idle characteristics, no more stumble, all is good.

Thanks again for your suggestions, guys. Oh, yea.. This thing rides like a brick and wanders like a drunkard... are there any known suspension problems with them, or is it just worn out?

88RxTuner

P.S. Imports most definitely do break... in the most unusual and unconventional methods! lol
 
"Any 86-98 rear housing will interchange" and "87-88 t-bird turbo coupe rear axle have rear 4-lug disk brakes." is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you again. I will be in search of a suitable rear end. I do not want to upgrade, just pull and install a stock factory 4-lug rear end that does not scream for help when you drive it. I'm assuming the 4 lugs stopped in 93? I don't plan on racing, hot-rodding, or otherwise abusing this car, it's just a DD... And I dont really want to spend the time or have the money to upgrade, modify, rebuild, etc.

Will the T-Bird disc brakes require any modification to the hydraulic system (lines, valving, master cyl, etc) if I happen to come across that one?

Yes, if you do chose to install the entire rear, you will need to change the Master Cylinder. The 1993 cobra uses t-bird rear disk brakes. So you'll need to change the MC and booster.

Also, 87+ later Mustangs have 11" front disks, while your 1986 uses 10" brakes. SO that's an upgrade right there. Plus side here is you can usually get these parts (spindles, rotors, calipers, lines) for DIRT cheap.

If you do score a disk brake rear, you cen definitely sell the parts off easily to someone here. The popular upgrade is to upgrade to 1994-later Mustang brakes. Then, you can get 13" front brakes and 11.65" rear brakes and some good stopping power. You can even put a set of Brembos on the front spindles.

79-93 5 Lug Ford Fox Body Mustang Conversions

Have a read there if you ever decide to upgrade.



And yes, a 86 is 23 years old...i'm sure it's suspension is in need of some refreshing. Definitely look into Sub Frame connectors to stiffen the chassis up. As for shocks and struts, go with an adjustable setup, as it will let you soften it up to ride nicely...but then you can change the valving and stiffen it up for some fun.

There is a TON of stuff you can do, but i can understand leaving the car stock. If my car was near stock...i'd keep it stock. But it's too far gone now so i might as well keep going!
 
Thanks again for your suggestions, guys. Oh, yea.. This thing rides like a brick and wanders like a drunkard... are there any known suspension problems with them, or is it just worn out?

Yes! this is why most owners change to 5-lug, using 94-95 GT front spindels will change the front suspension dynamics greatly improving handling and you can usually accomplish this for around 100.00. Upgrading the rear brakes to disk will help with stopping, but will cost a few pennies to upgrade the master cyl. and booster, but you can get away with using a stock booster in a daily driver, under heavy/frequent braking you will lose the vaccuum bank and thus lose the power brakes. I changed my car over to 5-lug with disk on all four corners for about 500.00 and a days worth of work. I still have the stock booster and have no e-brake, but for an extra 200.00 or so you can do those too.

PS changing to 5 lug will open up a huge market for wheels vs the 5 or 6 different options (mostly stock) for 4 lug.
 
Dumping The computer diagnostic codes on 86-95 Mustangs

Revised 19-May-2009 to update drawing for dumping the codes on 86-88 Mustangs with no check engine light.

Dump the codes and see what the computer says is wrong…Codes may be present in the computer even if the Check Engine light isn’t on.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Here's the link to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

See Troublcodes.net Trouble Codes OBD & OBD2 Trouble Codes and Technical info & Tool Store. By BAT Auto Technical

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If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

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The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

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The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

What to expect:
You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems.

Codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Alternate methods:
For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see Actron® for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Wal-Mart.

Or for a nicer scanner see Digital Ford Code Reader (3145) – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $30.


Been there and done that! With success! :nice:

Do the 87-88 T-Bird Turbo Coupe rear end swap!

Auto trans 87-88 Tbird Turbo Coupes come with 3.73 gears and manual Turbo Coupes come with 3.55 gears.
Both rear ends are 8.8 units with traction lock.
Cost is $125-$300 for the rear axle. Add another $100-$200 or so to complete the brake upgrade.

I choose 3.55 since I do more highway driving. Both ratios have 10 5/16" disk brakes with vented rotors as standard equipment.

It takes 2 guys the first day to get the old rear end out and the new one bolted in place.
It takes 1 guy another whole day to do the brakes.
This tech note was written for 87-93 model 5.0 Mustangs, so if you have a 4 cylinder conversion or earlier model, there may be some other changes needed as well.. See 87-93 Mustang 5.0 Brake upgrade pages. Improve your 60-0 times! for more information.
You will need a several sets of fittings, I recommend that you get them from Matt90GT's website,
87-93 Mustang 5.0 Brake upgrade pages. Improve your 60-0 times!.
Read Matt's instructions thoroughly, everything you need to know about the brakes is all there.
You need to be patient and follow all the internal links, and there are many of them.

You will need 2 fittings in the rear to adapt your old brake tubing to the TC disk brakes.
The fittings go between the steel tube and the caliper brake hose.
You will need another set of fittings to make a 2 port to 3 port adapter. To make life simpler,
just buy the kits from Matt. You could piece them together, but it's not worth the time unless
you work at an auto parts store with all the fittings ever made.

You will need to drill the quad shock mounting holes 2” below the holes drilled for the Turbo Coupe
mounting points. The bolts are metric, so don’t loose them or the nuts. A 15/32” drill should be
about the right size unless you have access to metric sized drill bits. Going without quad shocks is
not an option.

You will need a proportioning valve, Summit has one for $42 + shipping. Wildwood 260-8419
You will need a kit (FMS makes the part) to gut the stock proportioning valve, Summit also
has that, about $18. Ford Racing M-2450-A

You will need a new master cylinder, see Matt's site and make you choice. I used a 94-95 Mustang
master cylinder. Note that rebuilt 94-95 Mustang master cylinders do not come with a reservoir.
That means a trip to the junkyard and some more money spent.

Your brake pedal may be very hard and almost impossible to lock up the brakes. I had to replace
the front calipers with 73 mm calipers from a 91 Lincoln Mark 7 to get the braking performance up to par.

You can use the stock 5.0 booster if it is in good working condition. No need to replace the booster.
Bleeding the brakes will require 2 people and some coordinated effort. I don’t recommend using your
wife or girlfriend to pump the pedal – they get offended when you yell at them. I used a homemade
power brake bleeder constructed from a garden sprayer and some fittings from Home Depot. It cost
about $25 and was worth every penny. See how hard is it to bleed brakes? - Mustang Forums at StangNet
for details and pictures.

See Mustang Central.net FMS M2300K Brake Install for help with the emergency brake. The red words
link to some very useful photos on how to modify the handle. The stock setup tends to lock up and not release properly.
All in all I have been very pleased with the results.
Turbo Coupe parts list:
Rear axle
94-95 Mustang Master Cylinder with reservoir
Brake line Adapter fittings 87-93 Mustang 5.0 Brake upgrade pages. Improve your 60-0 times!
3 line to 2 line brake fitting kit 87-93 Mustang 5.0 Brake upgrade pages. Improve your 60-0 times!.
proportioning valve, Wildwood 260-8419 Summit or Jegs
Kit to gut the stock proportioning valve Ford Racing M-2450-A Summit or Jegs
Reuse stock brake booster
73 mm front calipers from a 91 Lincoln Mark 7 (two calipers) local auto parts
Emergency brake cable parts Summit or Jegs or .late model restoration
M-2809-A* Parking Brake Cable (need 2)
M-2810-A* Parking Brake Cable (short cable that attaches to the parking brake handle)
I recommend that you use reman calipers and use the calipers from the Turbo Coupe axle for cores to return.
The parking brake mechanism and the caliper slides tend to lockup and freeze
Identifying a Turbo Coupe rear axle:
1.) Measure the rotors - a TC disk brake uses 10 5/16" vented rotors.
2.) Measure the length of the quad shock mount arm and compare it to the mount on your existing stock axle.
The TC quad shock mount arm is about 8" long if I remember correctly.
3.) Measure the distance between the axle flanges and compare it to stock. The TC rear axle assembly is
3/4" wider per side, or 1 1/2" wider for both sides.

Five lug Turbo Coupe conversion:
Use the 94-98 axles Mustang axles. Use 1990 Mazda MPV 3.0 V6 front rotors (10", 5 lug x 4.5" pattern, 2 7/16" offset ). While you are at the auto parts store, set a TC rear rotor side by side with the Mazda rotor and they are the same except for the offset.

The next step fixes the offset problem:
Use a Maximum MotorSports 1/8 spacer (MMWS6, Maximum Motorsports :: The Leader In Mustang Performance Suspension ) between the inside of the rotor and the axle flange. The spacers may need to have the OD machined to fit properly. The stock rotor offset is 2 5/16" and the Mazda rotors are 2 7/16" offset. The 1/8" spacer puts the rotor back dead center alignment with the calipers.

The Mazda rotors are under $30 each, and I have seen them for $20 each. The MM spacers are two for $30 + $9 shipping. So the entire package costs $99. That saves $41, which most of us could find a very good use for.
 
Well.... the ford EFI is probally a very well designed system for the most part. It really doesn't matter that it's a Ford, or a Honda, or a Sabaru.. they are basically the same... unless you are playing with a wankle but then again even then it's basically the same.

It sounds kind of like an ignition problem, the low end issues. The ignition on these cars is quite simple. Basically there is a pickup in the distributer that acts like a cam postion sensor, and this sends a signal through the module and then to the coil, which then sends power back to the distributer as a spark, where it is transfered to the proper plug wire, then to the proper spark plug. Pull some plugs, how do they look? Check the wires for thier conditon. How about the cap and rotor? Oh, one other thing, timing is adjustable on these cars, it could be that but not likely.

Be sure you have good fuel pressure. 38psi is about what you want with the vacuum off the regulator.