Will a Tweecer be able to tune my 414 c.i.?

[Pokageek]

As you all know, I have had issues with my car after it was changed to 42# injectors and LT's. I want some opinions on Tweecer vs PMS. I THINK the way the PMS works is that you can take out fuel and little things like that at the bottom but it will end up running too lean on the top end. Does this work the same way with tweecer? I guess wit ha wide band you would know if you are running too lean? Would that require 2 wide bands? One for each exuast pipe?

Tweecer would put me in control in that I could tune it myself without have to wait on other techs. The trouble I had with the tweecer on my 306 was that it did not attach to the puter right and kept shutting the car off. it is POSSIBLE but not likely that I sanded down the terminal a little too much...or not enough. If so, how much is a used stock computer just in case?

How does the tweecer compare to other chips and stuff? Is it compatible with the Lightening 90mm MAF and 42#'s?

 

[Adam95GT]

pretty sure you want motes.... think it will take care of everything. but its harder to use then a pms.

 

[BlackVert]

absolutely, no doubt about, you would be able to tune it with the tweecer. you have control over pretty much every possible parameter in the computer.

the "problem" with it is that there are so many tables and functions that you have access to, it can be hard figuring out which ones to mess with and which ones to leave alone. grady and i use one and our drivability is excellent.

EVERY combination of MAF and injectors in the world is compatible with the TwEECer, because the way it works is that the MAF sensor provides a voltage to the computer, and the computer takes that voltage and looks in a table (the MAF Transfer table) to derive how much air is coming in. the computer then decides based on that info how long to open the injectors for. since you can make the MAF air flow and injector flow info correct, the computer can decide correctly how long the injectors should be open. so as you can imagine, the MAF transfer table and the injector flow parameters need to be as correct as possible.

another piece of the puzzle for tuning our cars is that they are load based. this means that the computer takes the amount of air it thinks is coming in (the same info as above) and what it thinks is the size of the engine (another parameter) and uses that to decide what percent of the engine's maximum air flow it is getting. it then uses that for many of the other decisions it makes (which you have control over) including the spark timing and injector on/off timing.

one last thing i'lll mention about the tuning is the long tubes problem. the stock computer thinks that the O2 sensors are a certain distance away from the cylinders, and it uses that to decide how long to wait before looking at the O2 voltage while trying to figure out if it gave the right amount of fuel. it then uses that info to add or remove fuel in the future in its attempt to make it better (this is called the adaptive strategy). when you get long tubes, that moves the O2 sensors farther away, so the O2 reading it takes is incorrect because the exhaust has not yet gotten to the sensors. then as you drive the car, the tune will get worse because the computer's adaptive strategy fails because it is reading the sensors too early (because the O2s are farther away then it thinks they are). that is a primary reason why the car drives better after disconnecting the battery and gets worse (again!) in a few days. the adaptive strategy is reset when you disconnect the battery.

and yes, you can fix that too with the tweecer.

that said, i bet many of the other tuning systems also provide access to those parameters, so the tweecer is not the only solution for you

good luck and keep us posted

 

[1slow95]

What about AEM or another stand alone? I got most of the bugs worked out of mine before I broke it.

AEM does away with the stock O2's and uses a heated WB O2 so the LT's won't be a problem. And you can switch to a MAP sensor and do away with the MAF completely.

 

[blksn955.o]

I would go Moats. I am thinking about selling my tweecerR/T and picking up a Moats but at this time its just not justifiable.

IIRC the PMS that works on our year cars does not have a whole lot to do with idle functions (takes over 2krpm and UP) and no access to the maftransfer table. The trad off is it is much easier to use but is also much pricier and if you want to datalog (and you will) the price is even more.

Best bang for the buck would be a tweecerR/T or Moats setup IMHO.

 

[BlackVert]

how much does a moates system cost?

and how much is the AEM?

 

[Adam95GT]

how much does a moates system cost?

and how much is the AEM?

AEM $1200+

Motes $250 for quarterhorse + $150 ish software (BE ETC.)

 

[1slow95]

Used AEM's can be found in the $800 range.

 

[blksn955.o]

The nice thing about the AEM is it can be used with a combination of parts like say LS based coil packs, run with no Dizzy via crank trigger, run as a SD system so no MAF to peg (REALLY good from what I have seen with turbo setups).

The thing is you have to make the call if you think a stand alone system is overkill for your application.

 

[Grn92LX]

I THINK the way the PMS works is that you can take out fuel and little things like that at the bottom but it will end up running too lean on the top end.

What????????? You can tune with the PMS from idle to where ever you let off the throttle. I had no problems tuning my old 347 car with a "big" cam from hot/cold start to idle to 7,000 rpm

 

[BlackVert]

What????????? You can tune with the PMS from idle to where ever you let off the throttle. I had no problems tuning my old 347 car with a "big" cam from hot/cold start to idle to 7,000 rpm

i think i heard that some of the older PMS systems didn't come on until a certain rpm or something like that ...

but i don't want to spread incorrect information ... i could be confusing that with something else i heard somewhere else and be completely wrong though ... it sucks geting older and having your memory not as crisp as it once was ...

 

[Chythar]

I also vote for the Moates setup. It's much cheaper to start self-tuning, though you may have more learning ahead of you. That being said, with some help from Stanger007, I was able to adjust the shift points on my green GT's AODE to better match up with the 4R70W gearset and the 3.73' in the rear end.

My impression is that the Moates system is more of a DIY system than the Tweecer. Also, more peeps here use the Tweecer so you have more resources available for learning.

Isn't the AEM a complete PCM replacement? Or is is a chip in the diagnostic port like the Tweecer and Moates?

 

[Stang D]

Most any tuner will do what you want. I went with Tweecer but qHorse is cheaper. I recommend you buy from a vendor that will spend the time to throw in a base tune. That's worth some money to me. Bought my Tweecer from Chris at PowerAdderSolutions. Customer service was excellent. He gave me a base tune that is just perfect. I still run it as my street tune. Runs awesome and fuel economy I never dreamed I'd have with HCI. He also threw in a couple more tunes to play with on the strip that peeled some more time off my ET. Unfortunately I was not forced to learn to tune yet. But I plan to.

 

[Stanger007]

I'd stick with the factory PCM and go with a Quarterhorse and a COMPETENT tuner. The tuner will make your car a dream or living hell.

Your combo is not that crazy so the factory PCM is more than capable in the right hands!

Wes

 

[Pokageek]

Lots of great information on this thread. I am looking at $800 either way I think if you include the wide band for tweecer and the fact that I would prolly need a new stock puter/ or used/ as the port has an issue.

I really admire you guys that have gone and tuned your car yourselves though. I remember using the tweecer and tuning my fans, and limiters and stuff on the 306. .. the issue at the time was that I could not find peeps to help or enuf info on the net. Plus my car kept shutting off cuz the diagnostic port wasn't rite for some reason. This PMS is connected to a different part of the puter and bolted in REAL GOOD with a great contact.

I'll let you guys know how I do.

GRN,

#1 So far I have learned that my issue at 2400 RPM is not the LT's because they would show up at idle, not that at 2400RPM. Is this in fact correct?

#2 Is it possible to program the LT's using the 4kRPM PMS I have?

 

[Adam95GT]

Lots of great information on this thread. I am looking at $800 either way I think if you include the wide band for tweecer and the fact that I would prolly need a new stock puter/ or used/ as the port has an issue.

I really admire you guys that have gone and tuned your car yourselves though. I remember using the tweecer and tuning my fans, and limiters and stuff on the 306. .. the issue at the time was that I could not find peeps to help or enuf info on the net. Plus my car kept shutting off cuz the diagnostic port wasn't rite for some reason. This PMS is connected to a different part of the puter and bolted in REAL GOOD with a great contact.

I'll let you guys know how I do.

GRN,

#1 So far I have learned that my issue at 2400 RPM is not the LT's because they would show up at idle, not that at 2400RPM. Is this in fact correct?

#2 Is it possible to program the LT's using the 4kRPM PMS I have?

What series PMS do you have keith i think that will help clear up some of your confusion.

The older version of the pms has the 4k standalone. the newer is 2k.

wide band you can pick up for like $190 with a gauge on ebay. Im picking up an inovate for my car based on price/quality.


There is a T4MO on ebay for $100ish... im sure you can get one cheaper on coral.


But yea it sucks but it will set you back $600-$750..
wish i could help you out more man. but untill i tune mine i have no idea.

 

[Stang D]

I really admire you guys that have gone and tuned your car yourselves though. I remember using the tweecer and tuning my fans, and limiters and stuff on the 306. .. the issue at the time was that I could not find peeps to help or enuf info on the net.

That's why a base tune is so important for some of us. After spending all summer waiting on parts gathering and very slow machinework, the last thing I wanted was a car that ran like crap for 6 weeks while I ascended the learning curve. The tuning devices are nice. Get that base saved on one position and you got a car you car use now. Start making minor tweeks on the other positions. Doesn't work out, just flip back to your base tune.

Bad in a way though. Chris got my tune so close to right first try that I got sidetracked on suspension mods and such, when I intended to be learning to tweec now. Good winter project.

Regarding the wideband. Make sure you have a warranty. My ebay Innovate didn't work from day one. Power Adder Solutions also had those for a price that was close enough. I screwed up and now I have no warranty.

 

[Grn92LX]

GRN,

#1 So far I have learned that my issue at 2400 RPM is not the LT's because they would show up at idle, not that at 2400RPM. Is this in fact correct?

#2 Is it possible to program the LT's using the 4kRPM PMS I have?

You are confusing 4,000 rpm standalone mode (if you have it turned on) with the PMS only comign on at 4,000 rpm. The PMS works at ALL times. All standalone mode means is it completely ignores the factory eec.

I have no idea of your problem BUT if you suspect it to be a longtube hader problem causing the o2s to not get hot enough all you need to do is LOOK at the PMS screen and see what they're doing. If they are sitting at 0, they are NOT working properly, if they are moving around to all different numbers they ARE working fine. I have experienced the longtubes/o2 sensor issue but it usually was as simple as restarting the car to fix it and adding more fuel at that rpm and load range. You also need to remember you are not running a factory 302 so it WILL have little quirks here or there they you have to deal with.

Keep the PMS.

 

[Stang D]

Pokageek

I didn't read your initial post close enough to see you still have your PMS. Sounds like you need tuning help any way you go. Paying somebody might be your best option if you stay PMS.

Regarding your PCM. You would really have to mangle it for it not to connect. Sounds like a bad connector on your old Tweecer. Instructions say to shim the connector straight and secure it to the PCM so it can't move around. I used a large wire tie and it stays firmly connected. I can't imagine you would need a new PCM. For that reason anyway.