paying 2 for 1 on labor??? HELP with advice!!!

[doc stang]

long read, but i need some advice:

i chose this sub-forum here, since it seems to get the most traffic, and the question is kinda generic enough as to be applicable to any mustang /mods being done by a shop.

scenario:
98 cobra
undergoing installation of a maximum motorsports : maximum grip box, and long tube headers

(chose to do headers at this time, since the k-member would be off, and this would ease/speed/facilitate the header swap (at least for the drives half)).

so maximum says an average install should be 16-18 hours for this kit:

new k-member, torque arm, coil overs on all 4 corners, panhard bar and brace,, new lower control arms, new rear sway bar, full length subframe connectors, oil filter relocate, bump steer, relocate front sway bar.

maximum it should be able to go on in 2 days, and than even magazine editors doing this exact kit, and stopping to take photos, and notes for teh write-ups, have done it in 2 days.

with my skills being limited to bolt on type stuff, and not owning, (or knowing how to use) a welder . . .
i selected a local race shop who builds spec e-30 bmw's, and spec 944's for NASA road racing competition.

when he got the kit, i asked how long he thought it would take, he said he figured he'd have it on in 2 days,
granted, it IS his 1st time doing one of these kits)(and while not necessarily his forte, he HAS worked on some mustangs, even maintained and wrenched on a miller cup fr500s)

but lets face it, a bolt is a bolt, and if you can weld. . . metal is metal.
maximum's instructions are VERY detailed.

i was not necessarily in a rush, because we started well in advance of when i was planning on tracking it, so i was fine with a little done here, a little done there)(again his "2 days" estimate, seemed to jive with maximums estimate of 16-18 hours)

so here is the point . . .
about 3.5 weeks nito it, i am starting to get a little impatient at teh slow progress, and the upcoming track day.

eventually , after telling me it would NOT be ready for friday . . .
i pointed out that he has had the thing for a month, and maximum says it should take 16-18 hours.
and he replies, man, . . . i have over 40 hours (labor) in the kit already, and the torque arm (and a few other odds and ends) arent even on, . .. and the torque arm will probably take about 5 hours.

i can understand 10-15% over-budget on time, to be sure things are right.
read the directions extra, as mustangs aren't his niche.

but he is basically indicating that he has 45+ hrs in the kit, (maybe more, if that doesn't include the headers)

i have an email from him acknowledging maximum's estimate of 16-18 hrs.
(though the email doesn't specifically say he thinks it will take HIM 16-18 hours)
(just his verbal "it should be on in 2 days")

the car was set up and corner weighed yesterday, and is still being bump steered today.

so it just about time to sit and talk about the bill.
i wnat to have a game plan in mind before i go sit.

am i totally screwed? do i have to pay whatever he asks?

my thought is to approach it from an "i don't wanna get raped", and "i don't wanna rape you" standpoint, and try to meet in the middle, somewhere.

parts and stuff: fine
other labor stuff like drive shaft, seat removal, and race seat installation: fine
10% to 15% to maybe 20% over on the labor time estimate: fine
>100% over time-budget on labor : NOT fine

isn't it kinda customary for a shop to call and check with the owner when something is gonna be way over budget??

also, since taking>1 month to do this, implies it was kinda worked in between other jobs for other customer, . . .
??? don't most shops discount the labor rate, as compared to the scenario when that is the one job, and that is all they work on from start to finish?

i want it done RIGHT, and am willing to pay some degree of a premium to feel confident about the job, and not think about it as i am heading for a corner at 140 mph (not the time to doubt your build!!)

the more i am into this, the more i realize things don't always go according to hoyle, so i am in no way looking for a mere 16-18 hr bill, on the Kit part of the build

if he doesn't want to budge . . .
what then???

1) he has lost me as a customer,
2) my buddy, with another mustang he has serviced is gone as well,
3) all future referrals are kaputz
4) and i may even choose to theme/ decorate my car with a slur of his shop logo, as negative advertisement, - a virtual rolling billboard of non-confidence/bad business, which will be at every regional event.


threaten dropping a dime to the better business bureau?

threaten small claims court?
WTF????
i have never EVER threatened to sue someone.
and would probably spend more trying to recoup the labor overage, than i would get back.
just wondering if there would be some way to parlay the threat of such, to my advantage?

despondently wondering what to do.
doc


add a few hours for the headers ( which would go at least somewhat quicker since teh k member was out of the way)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Did you think having the suspension totally redone on a 10 year old Mustang would be cheap?

Was this a fixed price agreement or cost plus?

As for your stupid crap 1,2,3,4 all I can say is it must SUCK ON ICE to own a speed shop.

Here is my numbered list:
1) you gotta pay to play
2) it takes as long as it takes
3) 16-18 hours yeah right!
4) see #1

 

[doc stang]

not trying to be argumentative, but, still looking for advice

Did you think having the suspension totally redone on a 10 year old Mustang would be cheap?

nope

Was this a fixed price agreement or cost plus?

cost plus i guess.
i know his labor ratews, and knew the anticipated time to install, which he acknowledged.
i did NOT know he was >100% over it , until i simutaneously found out it wouldn't be ready for a givenevent.

As for your stupid crap 1,2,3,4 all I can say is it must SUCK ON ICE to own a speed shop.

not sure i understand . . .
i have been very patient and non-pressuring about the whole thing. I understand some shops have to deal with unrealistic expectations, I do not think mine are.
chiefly job done right,
i am not even miffed about missing an event in the new car.
(however, hearing the car was NOT going to be ready, AND that it was going cost more than TWICE the expectation (with no heads up about the bill), was a bitter COMBINATION or bad news pills.

Here is my numbered list:
1) you gotta pay to play

i realize this

2) it takes as long as it takes

i think the word "should" comes into play at some point. what if he said it took him 60 hours?, 80 hours? 120 hours? as gross examples. at what point do you decide i am just being milked?

for example: he had to buy new o2 sensors, and lengthen the wiring harnesses. great. it appears to be a nice job. and i am fine with upgrading things here and there that may improve performance, or longevity.
i realize some things had to be finagled

3) 16-18 hours yeah right!

that is kinda the point of the thread.
i believe it would have takena lot longer to do myself, at home, and TAHT would have required several buddies, who had their own welder, knew how to use itt, and had various specialized tools, like spring compressors, etc. - -I am NOT a speed shop. HE is.
so one goal of the thread is to try to determine whether 10% extra time, 15%, 20%, 25%, 33%, 50%, is reasonable (as pertains to the kit, not the extranneous stuff).
otherwise it come to paying whatever is asked (see ersponse to #2 above, what if he said it took 90 hours, and never gave me a heads up on teh labor-meter reading. Twice, once verbally, and once via email he indicated it would be a 2 ish day, 18-ish hour install.

again, as we started so far in advance, i wasnt necessarily concerned with the occasional

4) see #1

done.

not trying to be argumentative.
but seems like there comes a point in time when a line has to be drawn.
not even sure if we are there.

i had politely indicated my surprise when he mentioned being at the 40 hour mark, with AT LEAST 5 hours to go .

my hopes are that he will realize the bill should be somewhere in the middle.
everything looks great, and i have no doubts about work quality.
i do NOT want to screw the guy at all,
but dont want to get screwed at teh same time, either

looking for some idea of where the line is,
and what middle ground should look like.
thanks,
doc

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think you found a great installer and it will be done right the first time. The cost sucks but you are building a race car after all. Its like owning a boat, not cheap. I know the feeling myself Do not get me started on the cost of tires, clutch, etc on my Cobra

You cannot just trash a guy's reputation especially one that has done the things you describe for installing what you asked him to install. The full MM box kit is a lot of stuff!

 

[bhuff30]

I have to agree, your builder is probably trying to do it right. Sure, maybe it can be installed in 18 hrs, but that's just to slap the parts on. Your builder is probably taking the time to make sure the k-member is installed perfectly streight, so it will handle and perform precisely as it should. There is quite a bit of slop in the factory setup. This is just one example and I'm sure your builder is doing everything the right way, double checking geometry and such. He's just trying to make everything 'race quality'.

 

[doc stang]

thanks

thanks for the thoughts,
i am not planning on running a smear campaign
just hopnig for a little flexibility if the bill is through the stratosphere.
i realize one will pay less in teh long run by paying more up front to get it done right, and never need a redo,
as compared to trynig to save a buck on teh front side,
and then spending multiples more, lateer, fixing a sloppy start.

Leuopold rifle scopes, had a great tag line on a commercial in a magazine, once, it said
"Only a RICH man can afford a CHEAP scope. "
wasted ammo, wasted trips, missed game, lost competitions, etc.

so i believe in paing a premium to get a premium.

at the same time though - there eventually comes a limit on what price should be paid for a given job.

just trying to find the line.

one friend kinda pooh-pooh'd the set up, saying that : while the corner weights looked the good, there was too much bias in the left vs right,

the guy at maximum was actually pretty impressed with teh corner weights, and everything,
so it DOES appear to be a VERY GOOD install.


thanks for the insights,
more are welcome.

 

[Stark77]

Kilgore - I think that comparing your maintenance costs on the car in your sig, which it says is stock, to the costs of building a race car is quite a stretch. DocStang, you're getting raped. If he is unwilling to flex on the labor bill, then save your emails and any other documentation you may have and take him to small claims court. If he is found guilty and does not pay, you may attach a LIEN to any of his assets for the ammount of his claim (business, home - provided you don't live in FL, cars, etc). This guy is pissing on you because he doesn't see you as a return customer, like he does when a BMW or Porsche comes into the shop. Also, regardless of outcome, report him to the better business bureau and your city's chamber of commerce. Best of luck....

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Kilgore - I think that comparing your maintenance costs on the car in your sig, which it says is stock, to the costs of building a race car is quite a stretch.

I think your trying to say that I am comparing the two is a bit of a stretch.

Also, you thoughts on going to court are absolutely ridiculous.

 

[twogts4us]

Well where do you draw the line? The shop owner agrees (or at least accepts it) with the estimate of 16-18 hours, yet he's already put 40+ hours into it, still has more to go, and (apparently) has not contacted the car owner to advise him that the labor cost is going to be substantially more than estimated.
Whether he's milking it or not is not the point. When he realized that he couldn't do the work in 16-18 hours, he should have called the car owner and advised him, allowing him to make the choice of proceeding and paying or cutting the work short and going elsewhere.
If you took you car in for a paint job...estimate is $2000.00, but when you return to pick it up a week later they hand you a bill for $5,000.00, but never called to advise you that the bill is rising above the estimate - and you're just gonna whip out the Visa? I'd be like WTF?!
Most auto repair shops, at least the legit ones, will give you the standard work order/receipt when you drop off your car, whereas you can specify that you DO WANT or DON'T WANT a written estimate, and that the bill will NOT exceed $XXXX dollars unless the owner is contacted to prevent this crap from happening. I know that this is a law in FL, not sure if it's applicable in other states however..?
This reminds me of when I had my MM sub frame connectors installed. This was a rather minor issue, but very similar to your story - I was quoted $90, but NOT given a work order/receipt, and when I returned to pick it up I was given a bill for $130. Of course I was like WTF! As he found out there is significant welding on the MM subs that he didn't anticipate, so I did understand this and appreciated the excellent work he had done and happily paid the bill in full.
doc stang, I suggest you try your 'meet in the middle' idea...but he has to understand that he can't just keep ringing up the hours without keeping you in the loop. You really need to have a friendly F2F talk with him and explain that you want to work this out before you are billed for an outrageous amount that you didn't budget for. If he's a decent business man, he'll work with you. Just show him your perspective and listen to his perspective. I don't think you should have to pay the full amount. He should take some responsibility for the lack of communication, the excessive time spent, and the out of control costs. You aren't rich are you? (Tell him this!)
If he tells you to flock off, well then by all means get your car back, pay it all if you have to, then sue him. Small Claims court is suitable for pro se representation, although you can get some free legal advise through the court systems. (My wife works for this county's board of county commissioners at the courthouse...as well as being a paralegal...she's a smart legal cookie who knows how to drum up support!) Let me know if I can help. Keep us posted and feel free to PM me if you'd like.

 

[Stark77]

Kilgore - I'm sorry you misunderstood my properly puncuated and structured sentence.

I've had two small claims court experiences, with both being ammounts over $1,000.00 but less than $5,000.00. Both resulted in full judgements in my favor and both were paid in full by the defending parties. Doc Stang was mislead by the technician that he spoke with. He was told it was a 2 day project by the party that is performing the work, which correponds with the timeline posted on the product manual. It is safe to say that any budget variance relating to labor can be attributed to.......
1. dishonest billing practices
2. sub-standard workmanship
3. poor knowledge of a chassis which has remained very much unchanged for 20+ years!
4. lazy employees


It takes me 2 minutes to take out the garbage, but I could MAKE IT take me 2 hours if that was my objective.


Doc Stang, being nice to the shop is yielding no results for you. Consider legal action in small claims court. Attorneys / legal counsel are not required, and legal fees are not claimable expenses in small claims court either. The shop can hire an attorney and "threaten" to make you pay the legal fees, but in small claims court this is not the case.

 

[fast97gt]

Dude are you kiddin I helped a friend back in july do almost exactly the same thing, the only diference his headers were already done. It took us a weekend (saturday and sunday) total bout 18hrs. That was hand tools and jackstands, sounds like u got put on the back burner
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[twogts4us]

Kilgore - I'm sorry you misunderstood my properly puncuated and structured sentence.

It takes me 2 minutes to take out the garbage, but I could MAKE IT take me 2 hours if that was my objective.

Yep, great point...as you folks probably know, if you take your car to the Ford dealership for service, you'll get charged a set dollar amount for any particular job. Whether they can do the work in the prescribed time is irrelevant to you - but completely relevant to them. The faster they work, the more revenue any given mechanic can generate. If they take longer than the prescribed time, that is their issue...for which they should address with additional training, better work flow, better time management, etc. This should never be your issue.
Obviously this MM Track Kit is a different sort of animal because this wouldn't show up in the Ford Repair Book nor likely anybody else's list of labor costs. The expectation for a compitent shop is to be able to perform the work in a similair amount of time as the manufacturer suggests. My personal thought is allowing a 15% variance, but that is it. After all, you stated that this shop "builds spec e-30 bmw's, and spec 944's for NASA road racing competition" and the mechanic stated "he said he figured he'd have it on in 2 days". YOU are the customer! They are the so called experts, even if they hadn't done this kit before, they should have a reasonable number of hours in their head on what it will take to install. The manufacturer's expectation is 16-18 hours. The guys already have 40+ hours and looking for more...!?!? Did they ever think to call you or did they envision you have all the money and time in the world? Utterly ridiculous.
One point against you though - DO NOT take your Mustang to a shop that DOES NOT regularly work on Mustangs. Doesn't matter if they build the space shuttle, each car has its own characteristics and methods to its maddening engineering.

EXCELLENT POST Stark77!

 

[fast97gt]

Sounds like this speed shop that will build u any kind of car you want as long its a 1st gen camaro, and providing your chack book has an abundance of zeros behind the 2 (200,000) is the starting price. Some may know them as detroit speed here in mooresville, nc. Now my point is, is that they have engineers putting these cars together and takes the 4ever and they try make everything perfect, yea I don't think so
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[1992 2.3LX]

Not sure what state you are in, but many states require notification to the person getting service if the final cost is going to be more than "X" amount above the initial estimate.

I would check with your state attorney general to see.

 

[GDawg]

Not sure what state you are in, but many states require notification to the person getting service if the final cost is going to be more than "X" amount above the initial estimate.

I would check with your state attorney general to see.

Agreed. I think 40+ hours for a professional installation is a bit much. I think 24 hours should be the ceiling but if it were me, I would go 30 hrs and no more. Then I would not do business with them again without a solid understanding of the quote and the above quote cost. I had a guy weld on my subframes, matrix brace and jacking rails. The guy said he could do it but hadn't done one like mine before. It took him way too long to do the job and the job wasn't that good. And I paid for the time it took him to learn the job.

This guy should not be charging you for the fact that it takes him longer than someone that knows what they are doing.