347 issues

[Damoborg]

Hello, I'm new here and live in Australia. I have just built a 347 engine for a buddy of mine with a 66 convertible. Her is a list of components:
5.0 roller block
Trick flow heads
Trick flow roller rockers
trend push rods
probe 347 rotating assembly(5.315 rods 331 pistons) 10.5:1 C/R
performer RPM intake
etc. etc.

My problem is with camshafts. It is running a hydraulic FLAT TAPPET CAM. Originally, we were running an comp cam extreme energy XE 274H (from memory), yet the valve train noise was unbearable. We tried 3 sets of lifters on this cam with no change, one set being crane anti pump ups. We were running a 10w 40 oil. Oil pressure around 50 psi when hot.

Spoke to comp cam tech guy and he said extreme energy are noisey. Went for a milder magnum or high energy cam I think with about .500 lift and 280 adv. duration. Did all the normal things, cam lube, oil additive, pre primed and fired her up with no dramas to run in the cam. We were running a 20w 50 mobil mineral oil. Did two rounds of ten minute runs as it got hot. Still very tappety. Dropped the oil, changed it, went for a drive still ticking. Got back checked the oil and it was black. Drained it and found a lot of metal. The cam had failed!! Pulled motor down and it was destroyed. bores scored, oil pump almost jammed.

By this stage we were sick of spending money on this engine, so we purchased a cheap chinese set of gaskets, cheap dynotec stage 4 cam and lifters and chinese oil pump and rings. Did a quick hone, threw it together and fired her up. No oil additive, 25w 60 oil and no problems at all. no tap at idle apart from what I would say normal noise. Driving the car though we can still hear what we think is a valve train noise coming down through the gears and at around 2K RPM (I think no tach). Thing runs strong, no oil consumption, just this noise.

Could it be the rollers making this noise. Do the pushrods make noise through the guide plates, as there is a slight wear pattern in that area. I am so sick of this car. The other problem is, we are having problems with it overheating. It has a dual pass bigger than standard aluminium radiator with two 10" spal fans and shroud. A cruise cooler pump, yet the crank pulley is a march 5.5" I think. It has a 180 thermostat in it. Yes head gaskets are on correctly. It overheats at freeway speeds as well.

Please help, as I'm pulling my hair out!!!

 

[Gregg@TFS]

Hello, I'm new here and live in Australia. I have just built a 347 engine for a buddy of mine with a 66 convertible. Her is a list of components:
5.0 roller block
Trick flow heads
Trick flow roller rockers
trend push rods
probe 347 rotating assembly(5.315 rods 331 pistons) 10.5:1 C/R
performer RPM intake
etc. etc.

My problem is with camshafts. It is running a hydraulic FLAT TAPPET CAM. Originally, we were running an comp cam extreme energy XE 274H (from memory), yet the valve train noise was unbearable. We tried 3 sets of lifters on this cam with no change, one set being crane anti pump ups. We were running a 10w 40 oil. Oil pressure around 50 psi when hot.

Spoke to comp cam tech guy and he said extreme energy are noisey. Went for a milder magnum or high energy cam I think with about .500 lift and 280 adv. duration. Did all the normal things, cam lube, oil additive, pre primed and fired her up with no dramas to run in the cam. We were running a 20w 50 mobil mineral oil. Did two rounds of ten minute runs as it got hot. Still very tappety. Dropped the oil, changed it, went for a drive still ticking. Got back checked the oil and it was black. Drained it and found a lot of metal. The cam had failed!! Pulled motor down and it was destroyed. bores scored, oil pump almost jammed.

By this stage we were sick of spending money on this engine, so we purchased a cheap chinese set of gaskets, cheap dynotec stage 4 cam and lifters and chinese oil pump and rings. Did a quick hone, threw it together and fired her up. No oil additive, 25w 60 oil and no problems at all. no tap at idle apart from what I would say normal noise. Driving the car though we can still hear what we think is a valve train noise coming down through the gears and at around 2K RPM (I think no tach). Thing runs strong, no oil consumption, just this noise.

Could it be the rollers making this noise. Do the pushrods make noise through the guide plates, as there is a slight wear pattern in that area. I am so sick of this car. The other problem is, we are having problems with it overheating. It has a dual pass bigger than standard aluminium radiator with two 10" spal fans and shroud. A cruise cooler pump, yet the crank pulley is a march 5.5" I think. It has a 180 thermostat in it. Yes head gaskets are on correctly. It overheats at freeway speeds as well.

Please help, as I'm pulling my hair out!!!

The rockers will make noise almost like a sewing machine. That is typical. For the cooling, try a flex fan with a good shroud. There is no reason that engine should get hot.

 

[66forfun]

for overheating.
check the bottom hose for collapse when revs are up.
add a high flow thermostat.

 

[10secgoal]

The noise sounds normal. As long as it's not a CLACK. Sewing machine or even a small tap is normal with rollers rockers. If you over heating at a cruise you have a coolant circulation problem. The wear on the push rods is also normal. That what the guide plates are there for, and why you run hardened push rods.

Make sure also that the fan isn't pulling so much electricity that it's not charging. Have seen before they pull too much for the alt, and the voltage slowing drops and it slowing overheats. but at driving speed this shouldn't matter. I'd check the thermostat for what you are describing. If it gets hot within 5 mins, it's definitely circulation or combustion leak problem. Sure the correct rotation pump is on there ?

 

[Damoborg]

Going to try mechanical fan today. Tried various thermostats. High flow/ normal.. Tried no thermostat.. Tried restrictor plate to see if there was too much flow. No change. Tried water wetter. No change. Have tried two pumps, both correct for the 66 stang. Voltage is not a problem. Bottom hose cannot collapse as it is one of those fancy stainless steel hoses.

I hope this noise is normal. It is very annoying and I cant say that I've heard the noise on other engines I've built with rollers. I am definately no expert. Maybe this car just hasn't got as much sound insulation. Like I said this engine goes really strong. We are very happy with the power.

I'll let you know my progress

 

[10secgoal]

I'd do a coolant test before buying the fan. You can drive a car at speed without one and should be just fine. it would take a little longer to cool an engine down without the fans assistance pulling it though, but should be fine. Looks like you've done all the steps. I'd be looking for cracks in the block/heads with the test. Was the block sonic tested to make sure all the cylinders were thick enough ?

 

[Damoborg]

Yes I'm also going to do coolant test today. I dont have to buy a fan, I already have a flex fan there to try. Block probably wasn't tested as I got it after it had been bored after someone else pulled out of doing the job. Apparently this was a going engine in an AC Cobra replica before being bored.

On the other subject, is there quieter roller rockers than others?? From brand to brand??

 

[10secgoal]

Not that I've seen. they all seem to make the same noise.

Post a vid of it ?
HAve you tried different pre load settings ? Some like 3/4 of a turn more, and quiet down from that sometimes.

Your using a flat tappet in a roller block, how long are the push rods ? Did you check the geometry ? Aftermarket heads need longer push rods. Too short and they will make a lot of noise at idle, and even a bit louder at 2k now that I think about it.

 

[woodsnake]

What length of push rods did you use?

 

[Damoborg]

Push rods are the correct length. Roller tip right in the centre of the valve. I'm running 3/4 turn of preload. Not much difference between 1/2 and 3/4 if any.

 

[woodsnake]

I had to ask. I have roller rockers on my 68, and they don't make a peep. A lot of folks on the board here think it's normal for roller rockers to make noise. I disagree. They have wheels on them, they shouldn't make a sound.
I just wanted to verify that you had checked for the right valve train geometry...

 

[Damoborg]

I'm of the same opinion as you. I didn't think they should be noisey at all. I really dont know if the trick flow rockers are any good, or I still have a lifter problem or oiling problem??

With the heating, although I havn't driven it at freeway speeds(heavy rain), the mechanical fan was worse for car stationary idling. Did the check for gases in coolant and come up clear.

This might be a stupid question but should I have the heater connected or bypassed?? I just have it blocked off at the moment.

 

[10secgoal]

If they are quite, you got luckier than anyone. They all make noise, that's just the way it is. Doesn't matter on brand. I can start up anyone of the cars here and the only cars that are quiet are stamped steel.

The mechanical is better than electric. MechanicalIf it wasn't, you may not have had a shroud on it. So it's only getting hot at idle then ?

Take the valve covers off after you've run it a little. Push on the back of the rockers. Are the all solid, or do they compress the lifters ? Do you have an oil filter relocation or anything like that ?

 

[Damoborg]

Haven't driven yet to see if she gets hot while driving. No shroud with the mechanical fan. The two 10" spals held the temp better at idle with the shroud than the flex fan, but I want to see if at freeway speeds it's better. The radiator that is in it is new but looks very chinese, so I dont know if thats the problem. If you turn engine off and leave electric fans running the core cools down cold enough to hold your hand on it within 20 seconds!!

No oil filter relocation. HaHa, I have pulled the valve covers so many times, I can do it blind folded with my hands tied behind my back. I haven't really tested that on the latest rebuild after it has been running. I know cold, a couple of them had bleed down.

Thanks for everyones help

 

[D.Hearne]

Hello, I'm new here and live in Australia. I have just built a 347 engine for a buddy of mine with a 66 convertible. Her is a list of components:
5.0 roller block
Trick flow heads
Trick flow roller rockers
trend push rods
probe 347 rotating assembly(5.315 rods 331 pistons) 10.5:1 C/R
performer RPM intake
etc. etc.

My problem is with camshafts. It is running a hydraulic FLAT TAPPET CAM. Originally, we were running an comp cam extreme energy XE 274H (from memory), yet the valve train noise was unbearable. We tried 3 sets of lifters on this cam with no change, one set being crane anti pump ups. We were running a 10w 40 oil. Oil pressure around 50 psi when hot.

Spoke to comp cam tech guy and he said extreme energy are noisey. Went for a milder magnum or high energy cam I think with about .500 lift and 280 adv. duration. Did all the normal things, cam lube, oil additive, pre primed and fired her up with no dramas to run in the cam. We were running a 20w 50 mobil mineral oil. Did two rounds of ten minute runs as it got hot. Still very tappety. Dropped the oil, changed it, went for a drive still ticking. Got back checked the oil and it was black. Drained it and found a lot of metal. The cam had failed!! Pulled motor down and it was destroyed. bores scored, oil pump almost jammed.

By this stage we were sick of spending money on this engine, so we purchased a cheap chinese set of gaskets, cheap dynotec stage 4 cam and lifters and chinese oil pump and rings. Did a quick hone, threw it together and fired her up. No oil additive, 25w 60 oil and no problems at all. no tap at idle apart from what I would say normal noise. Driving the car though we can still hear what we think is a valve train noise coming down through the gears and at around 2K RPM (I think no tach). Thing runs strong, no oil consumption, just this noise.

Could it be the rollers making this noise. Do the pushrods make noise through the guide plates, as there is a slight wear pattern in that area. I am so sick of this car. The other problem is, we are having problems with it overheating. It has a dual pass bigger than standard aluminium radiator with two 10" spal fans and shroud. A cruise cooler pump, yet the crank pulley is a march 5.5" I think. It has a 180 thermostat in it. Yes head gaskets are on correctly. It overheats at freeway speeds as well.

Please help, as I'm pulling my hair out!!!

Why're you running a flat tappet cam in a roller block ? Seems dumb to me. You would have had no problems as far as cam failures in running a roller cam. And some valvetrain noise is normal. Ford fixed this in the 93-95 Cobra 5.0 by using double layered valvecovers. As for the over heating, if you're running a 66 style radiator, that's part of the problem as the inlet and outlet are on the same side of the radiator, the coolant shortcuts straight down to the outlet, half the coolant doesn't spend enough time in the radiator to get cooled.

 

[Damoborg]

Yes it does seem dumb, not using roller cam, but thats what my friend wanted. Al we had was a bare block as a starting point. Initially it was money restraints.

The radiator is not the original. It is 26" wide by 18" (from memory), cross flow double pass, so both inlet and outlet are on passenger side.

 

[jcode68]

Check carefully for an exhaust leak around the headers. I chased what I thought to be noisy rockers for a couple of months only to find out I had an exhaust leak. Everyone who heard it agreed it sounded like rocker noise, but we were all wrong. As for cooling, make sure your electric fans are wired properly to pull air through (assuming they are mounted behind the radiator) and not pushing the air.

 

[Damoborg]

Yes, Exhaust leaks can trick you, but how do you check properly? I think this time he installed the headers with some sealant??

As for the fans yes, they are pulling correctly.

 

[jcode68]

Not sure how others do it, but with the car/engine cold, I start it up and use my bare hand to feel all around the flange, tubes and heads. I have AFR 185 heads and it turned out the smog plug on the back side of the passenger head actually backed out causing a major leak. You would swear it was rocker noise. Have learned to check the simple stuff first. Now with it properly plugged, my valve train is pretty quiet, but the rollers do have a sewing machine sound, but not bad at all.

 

[10secgoal]

5/8 heater hose to your ear amplifies it pretty good.