Preferred Underdrive Pullies?

[Kilgore Trout]

Great debate on an important topic, this is what StangNet is all about.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I have to admit....I didn't read all of that. To be frank, like trinity, the back and forth between us going over and over the same points has pretty much exhausted my taste for the subject. He's going to have his opinion and I'm going to have mine.

Take note.....many...many Mustang, Ford, GM, Mopar, Import, etc owners have and continue to run underdriven pulleys on their engines with zero negative effects. Are there changes made to the amount of tortional vibration the engine is producing/seeing. Quite possibly...even quite probably. My argument is that based on the success of said aftermarket U/D pulleys, that these changes are insignificant.

Factory components IMO are rarely built with superior quality or craftsmanship in mind. A lot of them aren’t even designed to keep warranty claims low. They’re designed more often than not to provide quite, comfortable, smooth, trouble free operation over a vehicles lifespan in order to satisfy a wide variety of customer demands. This however is not to say that they can’t be improved on, but Ford isn’t going to take that direction because in some cases it compromises functionality and/or comfort. Underdrive pulleys have been known in some cases to reduce charging ability or ones alternator, reduce low flow capability of your water pump which in extreme cases might affect cooling ability in high heat, or stop and go traffic situations and may even slightly increase steering effort and A/C effectiveness in some cases. These are all things Ford isn’t willing to compromise. Your average hot rodder on the other hand has chosen to find ways around it. Smaller alternator pulleys to increase charging, cooler thermostats, or radiator upgrades or even electric water pumps to increase cooling (although I’ve never seen the need for it). And bumping the idle to cure most everything else.

But please don’t be fooled into believing that OEM will always signify superiority. Here are a few examples of OEM superiority for various vehicles….

I’ll tell you right now. Ford will always choose quiet and comfort over efficiency, economy. As long as it will hold out for the duration of the factory warranty, without customer complaint, Automotive engineers consider it a victory. Anyone who’s ever driven a vehicle with a sloppy factory equipped automatic transmission will be able to attest to that. But that doesn’t mean that by dipping into the aftermarket offerings, in attempts to improve on the factory design implies that you’ll be trading reliability and longevity for immeasurable performance in the process. There are far too many high mileage bolt on Mustang running the roads today that dispel that theory.


I’m not a Ford engineer, and I don’t design electronics for medical equipment (although I’m not sure how that would make a person any more, or less qualified). I’m just your average shade tree mechanic hobbyist. The son of a now retired automotive tech (that specialized in transmission repair) that spent 50-years of his life in the trade and who was highly regarded by many to be amongst the best in his field. That’s a pretty large shadow to spend your time in as a youth and I’ve spent a good portion of my formidable years trying to live up to that legacy.

I’ve spent my entire life working around Ford vehicles and most of my 20’s working in various capacities for a local dealership during the heydays of the 5.0L and 4.6L revolution. I don’t claim to be an expert in the field, but I do have years of experience with these engines and drivetrains under my belt, having gone through them from oil pan, to air cleaner on more than one occasion. Also, don't be fooled by someone throwing the word "Automotive Tech" around as part of their title. I've got more practical experience that a lot of "Certified Ford Tech's" that I've come across, many of which IMO don't know their ass from their elbow and should be considered nothing more than glorified parts changers.

On the other hand, a good "Tech" is worth his weight in gold and it’s a shame more dealerships don't appreciate and work harder to keep these guys around. Many of the shade tree mechanics, or independent "mom and pop" business owners used to be Tech's at one point, but just couldn't put up with the corporate structure, the flat rate and subpar wages any longer.

For my personal experience, I've developed a pretty good sense of what works and what doesn’t over the years and my own accomplishments and failures are proof of this. If someone chooses to take my advice, then know that I don’t give it as some off the cuff afterthought, without any practical experience or research being put into it. If you choose not to, then that’s fine too. It’s your car and your money. Drive and spend it however you’d like.

 

[Rickyll7]

Just to stir things up... MY OE damper broke at about 90k miles. The "inertia ring", or whatever its called, separated from the rest of the damper. I bought a steeda udp kit... worked fine for about 30k miles. Now I'm using an OE damper from a Mach 1 and my other OE pulleys for my KB.

After reading all this stuff… My opinion is that the steeda udp kit is probably the safest one if you are going to get one. I don’t know if the steeda kit increases the risk. It may not change the risk in any significant way at all. Unless one of you has some engineering analysis showing the effectiveness of any of these dampers, or a study with statistical significance, the argument is a little pointless (well part of it anyway).

 

[trinity_gt]

I’m not a Ford engineer, and I don’t design electronics for medical equipment (although I’m not sure how that would make a person any more, or less qualified). ...

Just to clarify: I suspected that you are somehow involved in the sales and/or marketing of pulleys. I asked if that were the case and gave you a bit of my background in the interest of "fair play." That's all.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

No sir...not at all. I'm actually no longer employed in the automotive industry at all and haven't been for over 10-years now. My career revolves around a particular form of Law Enforcement.

 

[Arnolds97]

March is good.

I have used March Piggy Backs and now on my newer 2000 GT I have the SFI 1 piece Fluid Dampner with BBK Alt. and Water pump pullies. It had the BBK Piggys and I switched them out. Really could feel a nice hit at the midrange point. They are really nice in quality too and think they are Cheaper than Steeda.

 

[Arnolds97]

I actually had the idea of running no dampner and just run the Aluminum pulley without Piggy Backing the stock dampner to it. Did a few threads about it too. Got pretty heated! These engine are internally balanced. These are not Harmonic Balancers. When I did a thread about this a guy told me that he did this and it gave him a big jump in power without the weight of the dampner. He said he ran this on 2 Mustangs for 50k miles each without problems. Actually sprayed to much on one and took it apart and there was no damage or undo wear on the bearings from what they will tell you about torsional vibrations. I ran an Aluminum Unorthodox Racing U/D Pulley on 2 MX6's for over 240000 miles total and one for over 140000 miles with it. Their Stock Pulley is exactly the same type we have on ours. Really most of the power you get is from reducing the rotating weight. It is suppose to be like 1+ hp for every lb. That is why I like the March. It is a little lighter. The Piggies add weight.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I can’t say I’ve ever heard of anyone doing that? In any case, I wouldn't run no dampener at all. You are correct that these engines are internally balanced, but they aren't blueprinted. The stock rods and pistons are ballpark at best and not matched to one and other within 1/10 of a gram like the aftermarket ones are.

You've also got to take into account imperfections in the balance of the drivetrain end traveling through the rotating assembly. If you haven't a dampener on the end to absorb the resonance created by these imperfections, I can't see how you wouldn't be cutting your engine life span dramatically....even if you do avoid it going to pot all at once via a set of shattered oil pump gears.


If you want to free up drivetrain rotational mass, I'd look into an aluminum flywheel and drive shaft before dicking around with the front dress of your engine if I were you.

 

[RatStang]

I'm not the one making the outlandish, salesman-esque claims of inferior OE parts based on appearances. Generally speaking, the one making claims against proven, sound engineering practices is the one that has to back up his claims. Ford has the engineering resources and processes that no aftermarket company can touch. They develop the entire engine package as a massive engineering project and perform grueling verification and validation on dedicated dyno cells with often brutal tests: Ford's EcoBoost V6 was forced to endure 362-continuous hours of wide-open throttle testing in addition to 150-hours of thermal cycling where, every ten minutes, the engine operating condition was switched between "completely cold" to maximum power and maximum EGTs...

This is just standard boilerplate stuff in OE dyno cells. There's a good reason an OE could spend upwards of $1-billion on a new engine development program.

.

For the most part, it's been a decent debate. A couple of things come to mind though. First, is that Ford (itself) makes very little (if any) of the parts that go into their motors. They design a specification with a tolerance and someone else makes it. So long as these parts are made within that tolerance then they will test..... then test some more..... then test some more.... until they find a combination that they are satisfied with and that has a degree of failure (yes failure) that is within their acceptability range.

Along the way, they will end up with some REALLY nice pieces and parts! They will also however, end up with some parts that are just adequate, accomplish the mission, and have an acceptable degree of success (in other words... lowest bidder for something that works).

During that whole testing phase, they are testing the COMPLETE assembly (i.e. the motor), and looking at under a microscope, those things that fail so that they can determine both, WHY it failed, and whether or not that failure is within realm of acceptability. If it is... it's rubber stamped and they move on. I believe that the damper on pretty much ANY production vehicle falls into that latter category.

There are certainly finer pieces of equipment to be had that are FAR superior to an OEM damper. LOL Steeda may not have the money that Ford spends on testing an engine but again they're not testing an engine, are they? They are only required to test that part that they're manufacturing. They can BUY and already completed engine, put their manufactured part on it, and run that baby into the ground! I would hazard to guess that a BUTTLOAD (that's a technical term) more time is spent by Steeda on that one component than Ford ever spent on a their mass produced OEM (acceptably good) damper.

If this isn't true... then why exactly is there an aftermarket if NOBODY had Ford's resources to test and develope? By that logic, nobody can make anything better than Ford. Damn... and I spent all that money on a Dart block for nothing!

Again, it's up to you to prove that aftermarket pulley manufacturers can match this level of engineering, verification and validation, not for me to prove that Ford properly engineers things. That's just a given with nearly two-decades and millions of 4.6s and 5.4s in circulation without rampant crankshaft or oil pump failures using OE parts

This is not true. Just because you've chosen to champion the side of the OEM part doesn't place the responsibility of data on the other guy. In any debate, you show your cards and the other guy shows his. It's not, "What I say is right because you don't have paper to say that you are." huh??? If it's your contention that Ford properly engineers things then back it up with your own data. It's no more of a fact than oppositions contention of aftermarket being superior. Bottom line, your burden of proof is the same as his. Your side doesn't become gospel because he doesn't have a data sheet on his. Neither do you, so your arguement wouldn't be any more relevant the it's opposition.


Anyway... great debate for the most part. WAY more debate than a set of underdrive pullies deserve. LOL Just wanted to point out a couple of things that ran through my head as I read.

 

[sneaky98gt]

This has to be the longest single page I've ever seen on Stangnet. Takes me a full minute to scroll down the page.

...a particular form of Law Enforcement.

Does that mean that if you told us exactly what you were doing that you'd have to kill us?

 

[cw5billwade]

No one addressed this yet. I have a March SFI Damper UDP on the crank only. Best of both worlds. You have to change the belt though. You do not gain as much as swaping all three but you will also not have any charging or cooling issues. I intended to get the electric water pump but not until I needed it.

 

[RatStang]

Does that mean that if you told us exactly what you were doing that you'd have to kill us?

He'd have to share. View attachment 228286

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This is the tech section...

 

[cw5billwade]

Also Randy Stinchcomb sent me a PM when I was looking for my set up he said there are generally only two or three manufactures ASP, March ,and another one which I forget of UDPs and everyone else BBK ,Steeda, Summit, UPR ,SLP etc. repackage their products. That is why I went with March.

 

[SteveR]

Also Randy Stinchcomb sent me a PM when I was looking for my set up he said there are generally only two or three manufactures ASP, March ,and another one which I forget of UDPs and everyone else BBK ,Steeda, Summit, UPR ,SLP etc. repackage their products. That is why I went with March.

What about Trick Flow? Haven't seen anybody say anything about them yet.

 

[ibn_inked]

Summit pullies are Trick Flow pullies, just repackaged. They are good pullies. Plenty of people have used the Summit/Trick Flow brand for many miles with no problems.